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The Sinners Ability to CHOOSE

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SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
I assume you are referencing this dialogue between Moses and God.

So Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold. But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book. But now go, lead the people to the place about which I have spoken to you; behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them.”
~ Exodus 32:31-34

Are you thinking Moses is talking about the Book of Life, found in Revelation?

First, is it possible that Moses knows that God is recording the history of Israel through Moses and Moses is simply telling God to kill him as well? God's response is that He will only kill those who have sinned with no repentance. The book referred to here is not what John refers to in Revelation.
Second, the Bible is replete with passages showing us how false believers are weeded out by God. Read the book of Hebrews and have a healthy fear that you and I may not persevere in faith because we never knew God (meaning, He never knew us).
sbg, there is much here to digest, but none of it has anything to do with godless people having the ability to righteously choose a Holy God and it certainly has nothing to do with the New Covenant.
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It is interesting, that when you guys who accept "reformed theology", cannot answer what the Bible actually says, you make it up as you go along! There is NO evidence from the Bible, that the Book referred to in Exodus, is not what John mentions in Revelation. If there is, then show this here! Those mentioned in Exodus, had their names in the Book of God already, otherwise they could not have been blotted out! In Revelation 3:5, Jesus says, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels". This is a promise to those who OVERCOME. The language used by Jesus here, seems to suggest, that those who do not overcome, will be blotted out, otherwise this warning by Jesus is pointless.
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
SBG. To me, from what I have seen in life as well as stories in scripture, I have decided that the explanation as given by what we call Calvinism best suits our human condition and scripture. I think from a scripture standpoint, Jesus talk in John about being born again and the comparison to the wind especially closes the book on the subject. But you go by the name SavedByGrace and if you come to Christ in faith and believe that your free will choice is not a merit then our only disagreement would be philosophical. And that's OK. My only question to you would be - if I believe all 5 points of the TULIP and if I believe that regeneration comes before faith - can I still be a Christian brother. There were 3 active threads on this site yesterday where Calvinism was called a false or perverted gospel. I have been accused of being a tare among the wheat for suggesting that Calvinism is difficult to understand so I know we can dish it out also. What is your opinion on all that.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
SBG. To me, from what I have seen in life as well as stories in scripture, I have decided that the explanation as given by what we call Calvinism best suits our human condition and scripture. I think from a scripture standpoint, Jesus talk in John about being born again and the comparison to the wind especially closes the book on the subject. But you go by the name SavedByGrace and if you come to Christ in faith and believe that your free will choice is not a merit then our only disagreement would be philosophical. And that's OK. My only question to you would be - if I believe all 5 points of the TULIP and if I believe that regeneration comes before faith - can I still be a Christian brother. There were 3 active threads on this site yesterday where Calvinism was called a false or perverted gospel. I have been accused of being a tare among the wheat for suggesting that Calvinism is difficult to understand so I know we can dish it out also. What is your opinion on all that.
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You mention TULIP and Calvinism, and yet John Calvin, who is meant to be the "father" of Calvinism, which is from his name, never accepted the L of TUILP! Is this then not a false name to adopt?

Your error of "regeneration comes before faith", cannot mean that you are not a brother in the Lord, as this theology does not save a sinner! You say that "best suits our human condition and scripture", because you are a Calvinist! As I have said before, John 3:16-18 itself destroys the TULI of TULIP!
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
Your error of "regeneration comes before faith", cannot mean that you are not a brother in the Lord, as this theology does not save a sinner!
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Agreed. And it works the other way too as my goal in life is not to make everyone a 5 pointer. It's funny how to me John ch. 3 clinches it for Calvinism and for others clinches it the other way! I explained why I think the Calvinistic system is right, especially in regards to free will and we just disagree. I will not continue to badger you as I respect your opinion.
 
M

Marooncat79

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Question

how can a non regenerated person call upon a God in whom they have not believed?

It takes faith to call upon God

And to know that God will act upon you calling on His name takes faith

Anyone outside of faith is an enemy of God
 
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SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
Agreed. And it works the other way too as my goal in life is not to make everyone a 5 pointer. It's funny how to me John ch. 3 clinches it for Calvinism and for others clinches it the other way! I explained why I think the Calvinistic system is right, especially in regards to free will and we just disagree. I will not continue to badger you as I respect your opinion.
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What I find funny is the misuse of John chapter 3 by the Calvinists. All it is saying is that the new birth is not outward but inward and spiritual and not visible to the eye.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Marooncat79 said:
Please explain
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Jesus tells Nicodemus that he "must be born again". Nicodemus, replies, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born?" (verse 4), obviously understanding Jesus to refer to being born again naturally. Jesus then goes on to explain, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit...The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (verses 6, 8). Just as no one can see the wind that blows, likewise no one can visibly see the conversion brought about by the Holy Spirit. It is a spiritual birth, not human, as Nicodemus supposed.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
The first part is what the Bible teaches, the second is what some Reformed theology teaches, but not in the Bible, except the twisting of what Paul says in Ephesians chapter 2! There is zero Bible evidence showing that the Holy Spirit "regenerates" the sinner before they are able to call on the Lord to be saved. This would make the sinner "born again", before they "repent and believe". On salvation, as with the so called "decrees" of God, Reformed theology is UNBIBLICAL.
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You are projecting here. Do you think conversion and regeneration are synonyms?
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
Jesus tells Nicodemus that he "must be born again". Nicodemus, replies, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born?" (verse 4), obviously understanding Jesus to refer to being born again naturally. Jesus then goes on to explain, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit...The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (verses 6, 8). Just as no one can see the wind that blows, likewise no one can visibly see the conversion brought about by the Holy Spirit. It is a spiritual birth, not human, as Nicodemus supposed.
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And you don't birth yourself.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
It is interesting, that when you guys who accept "reformed theology", cannot answer what the Bible actually says, you make it up as you go along! There is NO evidence from the Bible, that the Book referred to in Exodus, is not what John mentions in Revelation. If there is, then show this here! Those mentioned in Exodus, had their names in the Book of God already, otherwise they could not have been blotted out! In Revelation 3:5, Jesus says, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels". This is a promise to those who OVERCOME. The language used by Jesus here, seems to suggest, that those who do not overcome, will be blotted out, otherwise this warning by Jesus is pointless.
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So you admit that Moses never references the "Book of Life" that John mentions in Revelation, but you simply force it into Exodus 32. You are doing what you complain about others. The text never, not once, says "Book of Life." The context does not support "Book of Life." But, it does support Moses asking God to blot him (Moses) out of the Book God is writing, if God kills all of Israel.
sbg, you are projecting onto the text.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
You are projecting here. Do you think conversion and regeneration are synonyms?
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Read Titus 3:5-7

"he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life"

Speaking of salvation, which is being converted from a sinner into a believer/Christian. Paul says that this is REGENERATION, which in the Greek is the compound word, "παλιγγενεσίας", which is literally, "again-rebirth". At this same time, this BORN AGAIN sinner, is RENEWED by the Holy Spirit and WASHED in the blood of Jesus Christ. This is called here JUSTIFICATION. Note, all of this is TOGETHER, and not as some moderns say, that REGENERATION comes before FAITH, which means, according to this passage in Titus, that the sinner is BORN AGAIN, before they are saved! We call this here in England, CODSWALLOP!
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
Read Titus 3:5-7

"he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life"

Speaking of salvation, which is being converted from a sinner into a believer/Christian. Paul says that this is REGENERATION, which in the Greek is the compound word, "παλιγγενεσίας", which is literally, "again-rebirth". At this same time, this BORN AGAIN sinner, is RENEWED by the Holy Spirit and WASHED in the blood of Jesus Christ. This is called here JUSTIFICATION. Note, all of this is TOGETHER, and not as some moderns say, that REGENERATION comes before FAITH, which means, according to this passage in Titus, that the sinner is BORN AGAIN, before they are saved! We call this here in England, CODSWALLOP!
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You are cherry picking. Regeneration and conversion are not the same thing. PERSONALLY I believe they happen at the same time.
 
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