The Social Gospel?

[Silverhair]

I believe that God raises up governments. I am grateful for many things God has done. I am grateful I am a citizen here as well.

I do want to point out this comment (I missed up my last post which meant to address it):
I do not think you intended it, but this is the argument Roman pagains used against Christians around 250AD. Christians could vote (for senators) and hold office, but they refused. If you are interested you can read the Christian response in Contra Celsum. Christians abstained from politics until Rome made Christianity the official religion (and made politicians "Christian").

Anyway, you list several things that I am concerned with....but these are political. The church has existed in all types of governments (they shined the most in oppressive governments).

What you did not list is a readon a Christian voting for the GOP is doing God's work. As a believer we do not look after our own interests or comforts. We rejoice in persecutions- not seeking it but joyful we are counted worthy.


God tells us not to turn to the concerns of the World. How is becoming involved in world politics not doing exactly that which we write commanded to abstain from doing??


I have asked this several times of several members, but nobody has offered an answer - how is supporting the GOP doing God's work?

The right to vote is one that all free people should cherish would you not agree? That the pagan Romans used the same argument does not negate the argument.

As a Christian I am sure you have a comfortable home and if memory serves you did say you have a boat and liked fishing. When was the last time you were persecuted for your faith?

God did tell us to become concerned with this world {Matthew 25:35-40}. When we as Christians see a wrong and just stand by then are we any better than the pagans of this world?

You have to narrow a focus when you ask how is voting for the GOP doing Gods' work. Gods' work is also resisting evil in all its' forms with whatever means we have.

God used Cyrus, Pharaoh and even Nebuchadnezzar to move His plan along. Even though they were evil God used them.

 

[JonC]

JonC.

I understand (and mostly agree) with many of your arguments.

I ask you this, however. Our state has a "legalizing abortion" constitutional amendment on the ballot this cycle. I am going to vote this year simply to vote against that.

I think that is one instance where doing nothing is doing evil. Would you not agree?

Ok. Here is the difference in philosophy (how we think about ethics). It is utilitarian vs moral....and both are legitimate (just different).


1. You are in control of a runaway railway car. You see 3 workers at the end of the track and a side track with 1 worker. If you do nothing the 3 people will die. If you pull a lever and divert to the side track you will kill 1 person but the 3 will live.


2. Exact same principle, different circumstance:

You are a doctor with a healthy patient getting a physical. You have 3 patients in the other room who need organ transplants that will die within an hour. You know you can decode to kill the guy and harvest the healthy guys organs and save 3 people. If you do nothing the 3 will die, but the 1 will live.


Ethically both the senerios are the same (emotionally they may not be, depending on the person asked).

Utilitarian philosophy considers the outcome (or desired outcome) to determine right or wrong. Moral philosophy considers the act itself to determine right or wrong.


In your post you are not talking about supporting a worldly powers but simply voting on a policy. I would probably vote on an ammendment. But I believe abstaining would not be evil UNLESS your conscious dictates voting on the ammendment.

 

[JonC]

The right to vote is one that all free people should cherish would you not agree? That the pagan Romans used the same argument does not negate the argument.

As a Christian I am sure you have a comfortable home and if memory serves you did say you have a boat and liked fishing. When was the last time you were persecuted for your faith?

God did tell us to become concerned with this world {Matthew 25:35-40}. When we as Christians see a wrong and just stand by then are we any better than the pagans of this world?

You have to narrow a focus when you ask how is voting for the GOP doing Gods' work. Gods' work is also resisting evil in all its' forms with whatever means we have.

God used Cyrus, Pharaoh and even Nebuchadnezzar to move His plan along. Even though they were evil God used them.

Yes. We should cherish the right to vote (or abstain from voting). I served in the Army for 23 years and our rights are important to me.

I have not been persecuted for my faith. That wasn't my point. My point is the church weather's persecutions quite will. For some reason it seems to strengthen rather than destroy.


You have taken a passage out of context.

‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’

Jesus is talking about our actions in caring for others. He is not talking about supporting a "lesser evil".

The things we see in our nations are not new. They were hapoening in Jesus' time on earth. Here you woukd be condemning Jesus for not being the social reformer the Jews sought.


I'd add that Cyrus is the only pagan called "God's annointed". I agree that everything works for the good. But it is entirely different to say the Jews should have helped Persia destroy Jerusalem.

We can also see that (through world events) God used the Holocaust. But this does mot mean Christians should have been ome Nazis.

It is because I believe that God is in control, that nations rise and fall because God ordains such, that He works out all things for His good that I can be faithful to Scripture without being anxious.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, I do believe we seek shelter in God and simply obey Him.

What I am asking you is exactly how supporting a secular party that seeks to keep abortion legal at the federal level, is composed of and supported by gay-transgender communities, is actually being salt and light?

I do not understand the kingdom work you are trying to accomplish. That is my question.


For my part, I am participating in the body of Christ without partnering with abortion and gay-transgender communities. We assist women in options other than abortion, we feed the poor, and we share the gospel.

I stand against evil. I actively resist evil. Not only in my life but by warning others of the evil they let in and fail to resist for the illusion they are fighting a greater evil. It is all the same. And the Way is far more narrow than many will permit.

From my position many Christians I talk to today look exactly like any Republican regardless of faith. They are no longer salt and light, but are indistinguishable from any atheist Republican. They appear to have put their hands to the plow and looked back, to have allowed the concerns of a world already condemned to choke out that which had initially sprung up in them.

I cannot resist the greater evil and ignore the lesser evil.

I agree. And it is a discussion that should be had.


So back to my question - how is supporting the GOP doing God's work?

You ask what is the kingdom work that is being accomplished. Resisting evil. While neither party can claim to follow God one is openly against Him.

You said "I cannot resist the greater evil and ignore the lesser evil". What you are doing in ignoring both is supporting both. Look at your comment "by warning others of the evil they let in and fail to resist for the illusion they are fighting a greater evil." You are actively supporting the greater evil whether you think you are or not.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes. We should cherish the right to vote (or abstain from voting). I served in the Army for 23 years and our rights are important to me.

I have not been persecuted for my faith. That wasn't my point. My point is the church weather's persecutions quite will. For some reason it seems to strengthen rather than destroy.


You have taken a passage out of context.

‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’

Jesus is talking about our actions in caring for others. He is not talking about supporting a "lesser evil".

The things we see in our nations are not new. They were hapoening in Jesus' time on earth. Here you woukd be condemning Jesus for not being the social reformer the Jews sought.


I'd add that Cyrus is the only pagan called "God's annointed". I agree that everything works for the good. But it is entirely different to say the Jews should have helped Persia destroy Jerusalem.

We can also see that (through world events) God used the Holocaust. But this does mot mean Christians should have been ome Nazis.

It is because I believe that God is in control, that nations rise and fall because God ordains such, that He works out all things for His good that I can be faithful to Scripture without being anxious.

I was using Matthew as an illustration of how we are to be involved in this world not of greater or lesser evil.

I also believe that God has a plan for His creation and it will be worked out to His desired end.

You are comfortable with seeing not voting as fulfilling Gods' plan whereas I see voting as fulfilling Gods' plan. I believe that every Christian should through pray seek Gods' direction.

 

[JonC]

You ask what is the kingdom work that is being accomplished. Resisting evil. While neither party can claim to follow God one is openly against Him.

You said "I cannot resist the greater evil and ignore the lesser evil". What you are doing in ignoring both is supporting both. Look at your comment "by warning others of the evil they let in and fail to resist for the illusion they are fighting a greater evil." You are actively supporting the greater evil whether you think you are or not.

You are making all serious mistake here, but probably my fault. I may not have articulated my responses well (I often post as if in a face to face conversation). Sorry if I was not clear.

I believe that we are to resist evil in the way that God in Scripture has told us to resist evil. This includes all evil (the lesser evil and the greater evil).

How does God tell us to do this?

1. Don't judge the World. The World is already condemned.

2. Don't sit with, join, or even share the company of evil men.

3. Have nothing to do with the powers of this World.

4. “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

5. Our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the powers of this World, the forces of darkness.

6. Put on the armor of God, stand in His Word.

7. Resist evil by guarding your heart and guarding against sin in the congregations.

8. Be salt and light.

9. Do not turn to the concerns of this world as such will choak out the gospel that had begun to grow



You mentioned a lot of things that would make you join a "lesser evil". These included liberalism and, if I recall, immigration policy.

What you did not mention was an actual immoral issue.

 

[JonC]

I was using Matthew as an illustration of how we are to be involved in this world not of greater or lesser evil.

I also believe that God has a plan for His creation and it will be worked out to His desired end.

You are comfortable with seeing not voting as fulfilling Gods' plan whereas I see voting as fulfilling Gods' plan. I believe that every Christian should through pray seek Gods' direction.

I agree that we are to feed the poor, help those in need. I disagree that we do this by becoming the World or through worldly means.

If you can, turn on your television for a few minutes. Tune in to Fox News . Can you tell which ones are Christian? Or do they just look like Republicans? (Except Mayor Adams.....you may need to wait a minute).

Many christians are salt who have lost their flavor. They are fit only to be cast out. Is God glorified by a party winning an election? No.


I do agree that Christisns need to pray and follow their conscious.

In the end many will hear "I never knew you". Many will have had the gospel chocked out by the concerns of the World. Many will have set their hands to the plow and turned back making themselves unfit for the Kingom. And many will hear "well done, my good and faithful servant".

It is not up to us to make people pretend to be what they are not. Let people follow their convictions.

 

[Silverhair]

You are making all serious mistake here, but probably my fault. I may not have articulated my responses well (I often post as if in a face to face conversation). Sorry if I was not clear.

I believe that we are to resist evil in the way that God in Scripture has told us to resist evil. This includes all evil (the lesser evil and the greater evil).

How does God tell us to do this?

1. Don't judge the World. The World is already condemned.

2. Don't sit with, join, or even share the company of evil men.

3. Have nothing to do with the powers of this World.

4. “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

5. Our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the powers of this World, the forces of darkness.

6. Put on the armor of God, stand in His Word.

7. Resist evil by guarding your heart and guarding against sin in the congregations.

8. Be salt and light.

9. Do not turn to the concerns of this world as such will choak out the gospel that had begun to grow



You mentioned a lot of things that would make you join a "lesser evil". These included liberalism and, if I recall, immigration policy.

What you did not mention was an actual immoral issue.

Jon it is not joining a lesser evil it is resisting the greater one. You have taken the command to resit the devil in you personal life whereas I see it as a command to resist him in all things. Sometimes that will mean resisting the greater evil knowing that in doing so you are supporting a lesser one. This is not a perfect world so we have to make choices in choosing that greater good.

I commend you on doing the things you are doing and you have made the choice to not vote as is your right. We just differ in how we see Gods' command to resist evil.

 

[Van]

Interesting.

How do we struggle against the "world forces of darkness"?

Seems like we have two options suggested:

1. Become a part of the "world forces of darkness" that we view as a "lesser evil" or compatible with Christianity.

2. Put on the "armor of God", remain a holy people separated to God, and "light" and "salt".

I was wondering exactly how you believe that supporting one party in secular politics advances the kingdom of God.

1) Your deflection that to struggle against the world forces of darkness requires we become a part of the world forces of darkness" is the opposite of the biblical dictate that we are in the world but not of the world.

2) Your next question, that supporting those most aligned with biblical principles, such as allowing speech that counters traditional dogma, rather than those most opposed to biblical principles, does not obviously tend to advance the kingdom of God.

I do not think your position is tenable.

But lets address how a holy people (say the church) who have been called into His kingdom, and thus separated spiritually from the realm of darkness, should behave so as to be "salt and light" to those in darkness.

Colossians 4:6
Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

Does the candidate agree that every preborn baby has a life worthy of protection? Or is that too salty for the powers of darkness?

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

It is hard to let your light shine, if your speech is banned as homophobic or hate speech.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree that we are to feed the poor, help those in need. I disagree that we do this by becoming the World or through worldly means.

If you can, turn on your television for a few minutes. Tune in to Fox News . Can you tell which ones are Christian? Or do they just look like Republicans? (Except Mayor Adams.....you may need to wait a minute).

Many christians are salt who have lost their flavor. They are fit only to be cast out. Is God glorified by a party winning an election? No.


I do agree that Christisns need to pray and follow their conscious.

In the end many will hear "I never knew you". Many will have had the gospel chocked out by the concerns of the World. Many will have set their hands to the plow and turned back making themselves unfit for the Kingom. And many will hear "well done, my good and faithful servant".

It is not up to us to make people pretend to be what they are not. Let people follow their convictions.

I actually do not watch television. I try to keep up with current affairs on the net. CBC, CTV, for Canada BBC for world, and a mix of Fox, CNN, MSNBC etc for USA. You have to cut through the chatter with the US stations.

I agree that many people that call themselves Christians do not act like Christians. But we should remember that Christians are to be agents for good in this world as long as we are here. And that may be just being an agent for the greater good.

 

[JonC]

Jon it is not joining a lesser evil it is resisting the greater one. You have taken the command to resit the devil in you personal life whereas I see it as a command to resist him in all things. Sometimes that will mean resisting the greater evil knowing that in doing so you are supporting a lesser one. This is not a perfect world so we have to make choices in choosing that greater good.

I commend you on doing the things you are doing and you have made the choice to not vote as is your right. We just differ in how we see Gods' command to resist evil.

No. It is joining the lesser evil in order to prevent what one believes to be the greater evil.

Our command to resist evil is not, per Scripture, trying to prevent the World from being evil.

I do wonder why, if this resistance is to combat the World from doing evil, Jesus did absolutely nothing insofar as confronting issues with the Roman government but instead said that is not why He came, that the World is condemned already.


I am not sure that trying to force the World to be good is God's work. As noted, I believe that we are to be light and salt, that God changes people. But the world is condemned already.

I believe that it is God who raises up, and destroys, nations. We are called simply to be faithful.

I also do not hold your decision to participate in these "powers" against you. We have to prayerfully make up our own minds.

 

[JonC]

I actually do not watch television. I try to keep up with current affairs on the net. CBC, CTV, for Canada BBC for world, and a mix of Fox, CNN, MSNBC etc for USA. You have to cut through the chatter with the US stations.

I agree that many people that call themselves Christians do not act like Christians. But we should remember that Christians are to be agents for good in this world as long as we are here. And that may be just being an agent for the greater good.

God uses good and evil as "agents of good". He is in control.

But my point is not that these people are lost....or saved, for that matter. My point is that many Christians look exactly like non-Christian party members. They are not salt and light.

That said, I know many want to change the World, to make the World "good" (or at least appear so).

I do believe that a nation's government should reflect its people. Anything else moves towards a dictatorship in some form.

What happens when the nation is not comprised of a Christian majority? What happens when there are more wicked people and more "nominal" Christians as citizens?

Is it the responsibility of Christians to take control of that government and legislate morality?

 

[JonC]

1) Your deflection that to struggle against the world forces of darkness requires we become a part of the world forces of darkness" is the opposite of the biblical dictate that we are in the world but not of the world.

2) Your next question, that supporting those most aligned with biblical principles, such as allowing speech that counters traditional dogma, rather than those most opposed to biblical principles, does not obviously tend to advance the kingdom of God.

I do not think your position is tenable.

But lets address how a holy people (say the church) who have been called into His kingdom, and thus separated spiritually from the realm of darkness, should behave so as to be "salt and light" to those in darkness.

Colossians 4:6
Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

Does the candidate agree that every preborn baby has a life worthy of protection? Or is that too salty for the powers of darkness?

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

It is hard to let your light shine, if your speech is banned as homophobic or hate speech.

I believe my position os tenable. History has shown it is.

This was the position that Jesus took, to the dismay of many Jews. This was the position of Christians until the advent of the Catholic Church (a couple of centuries).

I do believe we are to be salt and light, to let men see our good works.

I do not believe becoming "of the World", appearing like any other Republican, accomplishes this goal.

What you are doing is misapplying God's Word. You take how we are to treat other individuals and use it to justify becoming a "lesser evil".


You still have not answered my question.

How is supporting the GOP doing Kindgom work?

You are still supporting legalized abortion. You are still yoked with gay-trangender communities who are ploitically like-minded.

Are you saying that God has a specific taxation plan, a specific immigration policy, a specific economic plan and that is what we must support as Christians?

 

[JonC]

@Van and @Silverhair

I also need to know exactly why you are so concerned with the affairs of the World and so focused on judging the World that is already condemned.

What is your final goal - what exactly are you trying to make of the World?

 

[Van]

SNIP
I do not believe becoming "of the World", appearing like any other Republican, accomplishes this goal.

What you are doing is misapplying God's Word. You take how we are to treat other individuals and use it to justify becoming a "lesser evil".
SNIP
How is supporting the GOP doing Kindgom work?

You are still supporting legalized abortion. You are still yoked with gay-trangender communities who are ploitically like-minded.

Are you saying that God has a specific taxation plan, a specific immigration policy, a specific economic plan and that is what we must support as Christians?

1) Did I say we are to be "of the world?" Nope,

2) Does preaching the biblical principle of the immorality of abortion supporting legalized abortion? Nope

3) Claiming I am misapplying God's word seems fatuous in light of the specific support I provided.

4) Did I say we should become "lesser evils? Nope so yet another manufactured disparagement.

5) I explained how supporting those professing support for free speech, rather than banning speech supports the preaching the Word to all peoples.

6) Please address what I say, rather than make up obviously false positions and asking if they are biblical.

 

[Van]

@Van and @Silverhair

I also need to know exactly why you are so concerned with the affairs of the World and so focused on judging the World that is already condemned.

What is your final goal - what exactly are you trying to make of the World?

I am concerned with spreading the gospel of Christ to the lost.

I am saying we are to strive to be good stewards and use all means available to facilitate Christ's ministry.

 

[JonC]

1) Did I say we are to be "of the world?" Nope,

2) Does preaching the biblical principle of the immorality of abortion supporting legalized abortion? Nope

3) Claiming I am misapplying God's word seems fatuous in light of the specific support I provided.

4) Did I say we should become "lesser evils? Nope so yet another manufactured disparagement.

5) I explained how supporting those professing support for free speech, rather than banning speech supports the preaching the Word to all peoples.

6) Please address what I say, rather than make up obviously false positions and asking if they are biblical.

I know what you said. You are simply wrong.

We are not saved to join the "powers of this age" in making sure there is free speech in the World.

What you are doing, not necessarily saying, is becoming "the World" in order to change it to make it easier for you to be a Christian.

You would join with a worldly power (the GOP) in supporting zeroing abortion legal at a federal level (a compromise to gain power), in supporting and partnering with gay-transgender communities who hold the same worldly principles, in order to make sure free-speech is protected.

You say that is not being "of the world". I say you are wrong. We disagree.

 

[JonC]

I am concerned with spreading the gospel of Christ to the lost.

I am saying we are to strive to be good stewards and use all means available to facilitate Christ's ministry.

I agree.

That is why I will not support these worldly powers. When we become worldly (become a member of a secular power of this age) we cease to be salt and light.

I agree that free speech is preferred. I disagree that we become members of a worldly political party to make sure we maintain free speech as a nation.

What you ate talking about is making the World less an enemy of God. We actually have free speech as believers. What you are talking about is making sure we suffer no consequences from the World for that speech.

 

[Van]

I know what you said. You are simply wrong.

We are not saved to join the "powers of this age" in making sure there is free speech in the World.

What you are doing, not necessarily saying, is becoming "the World" in order to change it to make it easier for you to be a Christian.

You would join with a worldly power (the GOP) in supporting zeroing abortion legal at a federal level (a compromise to gain power), in supporting and partnering with gay-transgender communities who hold the same worldly principles, in order to make sure free-speech is protected.

You say that is not being "of the world". I say you are wrong. We disagree.

Again you simply repeat your manufactured false charges about "joining" the powers of this age. Give me a break.

We are to be light and salt, thus in some way changing the behavior of some of the lost in the world. No question about it.

Please stop continuing to make false charges, rather than addressing the fact we, acting through the church, should stand firm for truth. Any other position is demonic in origin.

It is not our purpose to judge the world but to help heal it, one sinner at a time. And part of that is to stand up for truth. The idea we cannot support one political side over another because that means joining with evil is nonsense. the sort of thing a monk hiding in a monastery might spout.

 

[JonC]

Again you simply repeat your manufactured false charges about "joining" the powers of this age. Give me a break.

I suppose you can vote without joining a political party. But you would still be supporting that party.

What you are talking is allowing the concerns of this world choak out the gospel in your life. Your idea that you can serve two masters is merely an illusion. Setting your hand to the plow and looking back is defeat.

Our purpose is not to heal the World. The World is already condemned. Legislating morality does not heal the world. Creating laws to regulate behavior does not heal the World.

Our purpose is to be a light in this darkness, not to make the World look brighter.

The World will perish. The World is not salvageable. But people are.

All you are doing by becoming a part of these forces of darkness is losing your flavor, appearing as the World.


What platform would you be supporting by supporting the GOP?

1. Legalized abortion (federally) as a compromise to gain power.
2. Partnership with the gay/ transgender community that is politically similar.

You are a compromised Christian. What happens to churches that become lukewarm, that have exchanged their love for Christ for a love of making the World appear better than God tells us it is?

You can't save Satan, @Van . You can help him look better. You can help him put on those sheep's clothing. But his nature is the same.

You can, however, be a friend to sinners...to Democrats and Republicans....in order to be Christ to them ans share the gospel.

But I know how tempting it is to return to the World and its concerns. I know it is difficult to decide between Christ and Trump. And I know for some there is no distinction.