The Social Gospel?

[Van]

y. But you would still be supporting that party.
SNIP
.

The claim Christians must recluse themselves from influencing elections is nonsense.

 

[JonC]

The claim Christians must recluse themselves from influencing elections is nonsense.

Strawman argument.


It was the view of Christians until the advent of the Catholic Church (when Rome became "Christian" by decree) that Christians cannot be participants in these forces without abandoning their faith - without allowing the concerns of this world choak out the gospel in their hearts.

But this does not mean Christians recluse themselves from influencing elections. The issue is HOW Christians influence the World.

Is it by doing "kingdom work", by being "salt and light" to reach people with the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Or is it by becoming a Republican or Democmcrat and participating in these political forces?

I say it is the former. Scripture says it is the former. Christians until Rome made its government "Christian" said it is the former.

You say the latter.

The problem is you look like a Republican rather than a Christian. You support keeping abortion federally legal (as a compromise), you support gay/ transgender issues insofar as they are GOP issues, you support lies, you support so much evil in order to combat what you believe to be a greater evil.

I believe this demonstrates so little faith in God to rise up and tear down nations that you would support those evils, that you would put your hand to the plow and look back, to try and redeem the World.

 

[Van]

SNIP
It was the view of Christians until the advent of the Catholic Church (when Rome became "Christian" by decree) that Christians cannot be participants in these forces without abandoning their faith - without allowing the concerns of this world choak out the gospel in their hearts.
SNIP

Abstaining from influencing the existing culture is not biblical, and the claim that was the biblical view of the early church is false.

The Romans saw the Christians as strange and subversive as they only believed in one God and refused to worship Roman gods. Several persecutions of Christians occurred under various Roman emperors, including Nero and Diocletian, with followers often tortured and executed in brutal ways. Despite the dangers, Christianity continued to attract new converts leading up to the 4th century CE.​

 

[JonC]

Abstaining from influencing the existing culture is not biblical,

Again, a strawman argument (I think it is fair to call 2 strawman arguments in a row a "lie").

I am NOT saying that we abstain from influencing the existing culture. I am saying exactly the opposite.

I am saying that we influence the existing culture by being "salt and light" instead of becoming a part of that existing culture.

I can not compromise, for example, on abortion. You, however, support keeping abortion legal for our nation as a compromise to gain power.

I can not compromise and say homosexuality-transgender is wrong while loving the people. You, however, accept those elements into your "resisting evil".

Why? So you can protect our freedom of speech just in case a future administration would prevent Christians from talking?

You put your hand to the plow o ly to look back and be concerned with the affairs of the world. In doing so you have lost your testimony, your witness. You simply look like any other Republican claiming faith but wanting to save a condemned world.

 

[Van]

The "lie" is the claim anyone is advocating for unity with evil.

 

[JonC]

The "lie" is the claim anyone is advocating for unity with evil.

Not true. There are Christians who have united with the GOP. These people are not hesitant to be a part of a platform that advocates keeping abortion federally legal as a compromise to gain power. These do not hesitate to suppor a platform dedicated to upholding gay and transgender rights (something, that as a worldly power, is appropriate).

The lie was that the idea of the true gospel saying God changing people from the inside out, giving them a new heart, is abstaining from influencing our cultures.

 

[Silverhair]

No. It is joining the lesser evil in order to prevent what one believes to be the greater evil.

Our command to resist evil is not, per Scripture, trying to prevent the World from being evil.

I do wonder why, if this resistance is to combat the World from doing evil, Jesus did absolutely nothing insofar as confronting issues with the Roman government but instead said that is not why He came, that the World is condemned already.


I am not sure that trying to force the World to be good is God's work. As noted, I believe that we are to be light and salt, that God changes people. But the world is condemned already.

I believe that it is God who raises up, and destroys, nations. We are called simply to be faithful.

I also do not hold your decision to participate in these "powers" against you. We have to prayerfully make up our own minds.

So we continue to disagree on what is meant by resisting evil.

 

[Silverhair]

God uses good and evil as "agents of good". He is in control.

But my point is not that these people are lost....or saved, for that matter. My point is that many Christians look exactly like non-Christian party members. They are not salt and light.

That said, I know many want to change the World, to make the World "good" (or at least appear so).

I do believe that a nation's government should reflect its people. Anything else moves towards a dictatorship in some form.

What happens when the nation is not comprised of a Christian majority? What happens when there are more wicked people and more "nominal" Christians as citizens?

Is it the responsibility of Christians to take control of that government and legislate morality?

On this we do agree, many Christians are more in tune with the world than with God. It seems to be more of a label than a reality for many.

All we have to do is look around to see what happens when "real" Christians are not the majority.

No we are not to take control of the government.

 

[Silverhair]

@Van and @Silverhair

I also need to know exactly why you are so concerned with the affairs of the World and so focused on judging the World that is already condemned.

What is your final goal - what exactly are you trying to make of the World?

What I am doing is doing the work of God in resisting the devil and his evil. Whether through spreading the gospel or standing up for Christian valves.

I know you have said why you do not get involved but to me it seems more of I do not want to stick my head up and attract persecution.

 

[JonC]

So we continue to disagree on what is meant by resisting evil.

Sure, why not?

What does the Bible say of resisting evil?

In our lives:

1. Overcome evil with good (Roman 12).
2. Submit to God, resist tge Devil, come near to God (James 4)
3. Guard your heart (Proverbs 4)

In the World:

1. Resist not evil (Matthew 5:39)
2. Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him (1 John 2)
3. You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?(James 4:4).


In the context you have suggested my favorite is Jesus' command "resist not evil".

 

[JonC]

What I am doing is doing the work of God in resisting the devil and his evil. Whether through spreading the gospel or standing up for Christian valves.

I know you have said why you do not get involved but to me it seems more of I do not want to stick my head up and attract persecution.

No. What you are doing is resisting the evil in the world (and, I assume, resisting evil in your heart as well).

Concerning evil in the world that comes against Christians Jesus gave this command- "resist not evil" (Matthew 5:39).

I admit, that is a hard command to obey. We like to think that our struggle is with flesh and blood.

 

[Silverhair]

Sure, why not?

What does the Bible say of resisting evil?

In our lives:

1. Overcome evil with good (Roman 12).
2. Submit to God, resist tge Devil, come near to God (James 4)
3. Guard your heart (Proverbs 4)

In the World:

1. Resist not evil (Matthew 5:39)
2. Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him (1 John 2)
3. You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?(James 4:4).


In the context you have suggested my favorite is Jesus' command "resist not evil".

You continue to say that but in reality you do resist evil. You are just trying to justify why you do not vote.

 

[Silverhair]

No. What you are doing is resisting the evil in the world (and, I assume, resisting evil in your heart as well).

Concerning evil in the world that comes against Christians Jesus gave this command- "resist not evil" (Matthew 5:39).

I admit, that is a hard command to obey. We like to think that our struggle is with flesh and blood.

So if I went by what you have just posted then Christians should give into their sinful impulses and just trust God to deal with it. That is the attitude that we see in pagans and Christians that want to be in the world but still have the label of Christian.

We have both said Christians are to be salt and light to the world but how can we be if we do not engage with the world? You do not like the idea of being involved but as a Christian you have put yourself out there as the world will not come looking for you.

 

[JonC]

You continue to say that but in reality you do resist evil. You are just trying to justify why you do not vote.

I do resist evil in my heart. And to be fair I also am at times disobedient by resisting evil in the World.

I voted every election. This will be my 1st Presidential election I abstain. But more importantly, I often resist evil when it is done to me. And I need to work on that. I appreciate you pointing that out.

But regarding resisting the evil of the World, Jesus commanded us -"resist not evil".

That means we suffer. Maybe it is suffering under a government. Maybe a slap. Maybe an insult.

My failure does not negate Jesus' command. And my failure does not negate my voice in proclaiming that command. It simply means that I, having read that command in God's Word, am prone to sin.

But you do me a mercy by pointing that out. I can't be reminded too often. Such mirrors are aids to live a more holy life.

 

[JonC]

So if I went by what you have just posted then Christians should give into their sinful impulses and just trust God to deal with it. That is the attitude that we see in pagans and Christians that want to be in the world but still have the label of Christian.

We have both said Christians are to be salt and light to the world but how can we be if we do not engage with the world? You do not like the idea of being involved but as a Christian you have put yourself out there as the world will not come looking for you.

No. The opposite.

God tells us to resist evil in our hearts and guard our congregations against entertaining sin. Sin crouches at our door.

BUT in regard to the evil of the World, the evil that threatens us with harm, God commanded us to "resist not evil".

God's command to "resist evil" and "resist not evil" are not contradictory.

 

[JonC]

@Silverhair

I also need to point out that what is at stake in the election is not good vs evil. Beyond the rhetoric the GOP platform is to keep abortion federally legal. The gay/transgender community is a substantial part of the GOP. The issue is primarily which side has the better economic and immigration plans.


We resist evil in our lives and congregations, this is true.

But I can't get past Jesus commanding us, in regards to world evils that may come against us, to "resist not evil".

How can I call myself a Christian if I don't at least try to be obedient to Chist's commands?

 

[Silverhair]

No. What you are doing is resisting the evil in the world (and, I assume, resisting evil in your heart as well).

Concerning evil in the world that comes against Christians Jesus gave this command- "resist not evil" (Matthew 5:39).

I admit, that is a hard command to obey. We like to think that our struggle is with flesh and blood.

Mat 5:39 "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. NKJV

Mat 5:39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. NASB

Mat 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also; BSB

We are told not to strike back at the evil person, we are not to seek revenge for a wrong done to us. We see this clearly stated in a parallel verse Romans 12:19 "Never take your own revenge,"

This verse does not support your view that we are not to stand against evil.

 

[Silverhair]

I do resist evil in my heart. And to be fair I also am at times disobedient by resisting evil in the World.

I voted every election. This will be my 1st Presidential election I abstain. But more importantly, I often resist evil when it is done to me. And I need to work on that. I appreciate you pointing that out.

But regarding resisting the evil of the World, Jesus commanded us -"resist not evil".

That means we suffer. Maybe it is suffering under a government. Maybe a slap. Maybe an insult.

My failure does not negate Jesus' command. And my failure does not negate my voice in proclaiming that command. It simply means that I, having read that command in God's Word, am prone to sin.

But you do me a mercy by pointing that out. I can't be reminded too often. Such mirrors are aids to live a more holy life.

Again I will point out that your use of Mat 5:39 is incorrect.
Mat 5:39 "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. NKJV

We are told not to strike back at the evil person, we are not to seek revenge for a wrong done to us. We see this clearly stated in a parallel verse Romans 12:19 "Never take your own revenge,"

While the KJV reads as if it would support you the context does not actually do so. Christ is raising the old law to higher level. Matthew 5:38-39 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." The context even in the KJV indicates that we should not strike back at the evil person.

 

[Silverhair]

No. The opposite.

God tells us to resist evil in our hearts and guard our congregations against entertaining sin. Sin crouches at our door.

BUT in regard to the evil of the World, the evil that threatens us with harm, God commanded us to "resist not evil".

God's command to "resist evil" and "resist not evil" are not contradictory.

@JonC you are better than this. You have the education to understand the text and know better than to take verses out of context.

You know full well that we are being told not to seek revenge for wrongs done to us by evil people. The parallel verse Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves,..." will clear up any confusion you may still have.

Agreed in the context that we see them used "resist evil" & "resist not evil" are not contradictory.
As the context shows in Ephesians 6:12-17 we are to resist evil spiritual attacks via the armor of God. But the context of Matthew 5:38-39 is speaking of not striking back at those that attack us either physically or by words. We are not to seek revenge.

The context makes it clear that you are misusing these verses in the effort to have them support your view.

 

[Van]

Not true. There are Christians who have united with the GOP. These people are not hesitant to be a part of a platform that advocates keeping abortion federally legal as a compromise to gain power. These do not hesitate to suppor a platform dedicated to upholding gay and transgender rights (something, that as a worldly power, is appropriate).

The lie was that the idea of the true gospel saying God changing people from the inside out, giving them a new heart, is abstaining from influencing our cultures.

Here the claim is repeated that because some of the GOP are flawed, Christians cannot support those advocating biblical principles such as freedom of speech.

Note that the argument is to not oppose the party supporting abortion and homosexual behavior, because the other side is flawed. Nonsense.