The Social Gospel?

[JonC]

Here the claim is repeated that because some of the GOP are flawed, Christians cannot support those advocating biblical principles such as freedom of speech.

Note that the argument is to not oppose the party supporting abortion and homosexual behavior, because the other side is flawed. Nonsense.

No. Not become some of the GOP is flawed. Because the GOP is also part of a power we are told in Scripture to struggle against.

And because Jesus commanded us, regarding the evil in the World that may affect us, "resist not evil".

 

[JonC]

@JonC you are better than this. You have the education to understand the text and know better than to take verses out of context.

You know full well that we are being told not to seek revenge for wrongs done to us by evil people. The parallel verse Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves,..." will clear up any confusion you may still have.

Agreed in the context that we see them used "resist evil" & "resist not evil" are not contradictory.
As the context shows in Ephesians 6:12-17 we are to resist evil spiritual attacks via the armor of God. But the context of Matthew 5:38-39 is speaking of not striking back at those that attack us either physically or by words. We are not to seek revenge.

The context makes it clear that you are misusing these verses in the effort to have them support your view.

No. The command to "resist not evil" corresponds with Jesus sermon. The example of walking twice what was asked refers to a law by the Roman government (for example).

"Resist not evil" does not mean "seek not revenge" (hence turning the other cheek).

Look at Jesus. He faced an eternally greater evil under the secular government than any of us are talking about (where we are talking about immigration policy and economic policy He, being God, was given over by the religious body to the government (the "wicked men") and "killed by the hands of wicked men".

Yet He was as a Lamb led to the slaughter. He opened not His mouth. He remained obedient even to death on a cross. And He prayed for those men.

Abortion was common in the secular society. Jesus did not move to change the laws. Immorality was common. Jesus did nothing to change the laws.

When asked (the Jews were looking for a Messiah that would do the things you want to accomplish through the World) what did Jesus say? "My kingdom is not of this world".

Was Jesus supporting evil by not changing the secular government?

 

[JonC]

Again I will point out that your use of Mat 5:39 is incorrect.
Mat 5:39 "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. NKJV

We are told not to strike back at the evil person, we are not to seek revenge for a wrong done to us. We see this clearly stated in a parallel verse Romans 12:19 "Never take your own revenge,"

While the KJV reads as if it would support you the context does not actually do so. Christ is raising the old law to higher level. Matthew 5:38-39 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." The context even in the KJV indicates that we should not strike back at the evil person.

The word "person" is added. Literally, "resist not evil".

The point is that we are to be imitators of Christ.

It goes back to the purpose you think being a part of a worldly political power will accomplish. What is your goal?

It is not a moral goal (no side wants to legislate morality by banning abortion or immoral lifestyles. It is all about economics and immigration).


This is where the church fails:

"For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’"

 

[Silverhair]

No. The command to "resist not evil" corresponds with Jesus sermon. The example of walking twice what was asked refers to a law by the Roman government (for example).

"Resist not evil" does not mean "seek not revenge" (hence turning the other cheek).

Look at Jesus. He faced an eternally greater evil under the secular government than any of us are talking about (where we are talking about immigration policy and economic policy He, being God, was given over by the religious body to the government (the "wicked men") and "killed by the hands of wicked men".

Yet He was as a Lamb led to the slaughter. He opened not His mouth. He remained obedient even to death on a cross. And He prayed for those men.

Abortion was common in the secular society. Jesus did not move to change the laws. Immorality was common. Jesus did nothing to change the laws.

When asked (the Jews were looking for a Messiah that would do the things you want to accomplish through the World) what did Jesus say? "My kingdom is not of this world".

Was Jesus supporting evil by not changing the secular government?

@JonC the context does not support your view. Mat 5:38 is showing an act of revenge and we are told not to do so in Mat 5:39.

We are told to be salt and light in this world and yet you seem to think that requires you to hide your light. If you are not willing to stand against the evil then you are supporting the evil.

Yes His kingdom is not of this world but we are to be His representatives until His return. If all Christians did what you suggest they do then evil would have a clear track with no opposition. No salt and No light.

Yes they did discard unwanted babies and children and the Christians took them in. They stood against the norm of the day and changed the world. In this day and age we can vote so as to effect change.

 

[Silverhair]

The word "person" is added. Literally, "resist not evil".

The point is that we are to be imitators of Christ.

It goes back to the purpose you think being a part of a worldly political power will accomplish. What is your goal?

It is not a moral goal (no side wants to legislate morality by banning abortion or immoral lifestyles. It is all about economics and immigration).


This is where the church fails:

"For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’"

The context supports the addition of "person" since the next sentence says "If anyone slaps you".

It is not what I want the worldly political power to accomplish. It is what is the responsibility of us as Christians to do in this world, to be salt and light.

If everyone used the logic you are presenting then no one would vote.There are always things people want from their government that they will not get.

I agree that the church has failed in many ways and now you are advocating that you should become more insular. You have developed and attitude of why try to change anything.

Thankfully the apostles did not have the attitude you have. They stood against the world and the government of their time whether Rome or the Sanhedrin. Are we to do less?

 

[JonC]

The context supports the addition of "person" since the next sentence says "If anyone slaps you".

It is not what I want the worldly political power to accomplish. It is what is the responsibility of us as Christians to do in this world, to be salt and light.

If everyone used the logic you are presenting then no one would vote.There are always things people want from their government that they will not get.

I agree that the church has failed in many ways and now you are advocating that you should become more insular. You have developed and attitude of why try to change anything.

Thankfully the apostles did not have the attitude you have. They stood against the world and the government of their time whether Rome or the Sanhedrin. Are we to do less?

The Apostles did not resist the Roman government. They did not obey when obedience was disobedience to God but they also did not seek to change the government.

What you are doing is the equivalent of the Jews looking for a Messiah to resist the evils in the World and to install a godly secular government.

Jesus told those people that they lacked understanding of His Kingdom. I'd say the same to you here.


Why should I support the GOP?

That party is just as immoral as the DNC. The GOP is not seeking to ban abortions (which would be my only issue). Gay/ transgender voters represent a significant portion of the GOP.

You need to be honest here.

What you have expressed interest in, what will get you to support one world powers, has nothing to do with God. It has to do with immigration policy and economics.

Why condemn a Christian by saying they support evil because they will not support a worldly power that you believe has a better economic or immigration policy?


I cannot, and WILL NOT, support any worldly power that has vowed to keep abortion legal for our nation. It will not happen. If I do then the blood of those children would be on my hands.

Your compromise is your business. I am not bought so easily.


To make matters worse, the GOP's immigration policy is anti-Christ. Those illegal immigrants were allowed into our country by our government. Many were flown to cities by our government. We cannot simply round them up and send them back because our government brought them here.

 

[JonC]

@JonC the context does not support your view. Mat 5:38 is showing an act of revenge and we are told not to do so in Mat 5:39.

No, that is not true. "Vengeance is mine" was already accepted Scripture.
Jesus not only tells us not to resist evil but to allow the World to be the World (trun the other cheek).

Not only that, but we have Jesus' example that we can follow when it comes to trying to make the World godly. He said not to. The World is already condemned.

And, nobody here is even talking about making the World less evil when they suggest supporting a "power of darkness" to fight a "greater evil".

Christians have decided to follow the wolf that wears sheep's clothing in order to fight against the economic policies of the wolf that proudly looks like a wolf.


Read @Van 's comments. He is suggesting that we support a platform that seeks to keep abortion federally legal. He supports a government that will allow children to be killed as long as the people want to kill children. Why? Because they look more like sheep than the wolves on the other side.


You tell me - why should I support a secular power that has vowed to keep abortion federally legal - that has vowed to let the people decide whether to kill children?

I get it is against another secular power that celebrates abortion. But I will not join my voice with any party that supports allowing the murder of children.....even if I think they have a better economic plan.

 

[Silverhair]

The Apostles did not resist the Roman government. They did not obey when obedience was disobedience to God but they also did not seek to change the government.

What you are doing is the equivalent of the Jews looking for a Messiah to resist the evils in the World and to install a godly secular government.

Jesus told those people that they lacked understanding of His Kingdom. I'd say the same to you here.


Why should I support the GOP?

That party is just as immoral as the DNC. The GOP is not seeking to ban abortions (which would be my only issue). Gay/ transgender voters represent a significant portion of the GOP.

You need to be honest here.

What you have expressed interest in, what will get you to support one world powers, has nothing to do with God. It has to do with immigration policy and economics.

Why condemn a Christian by saying they support evil because they will not support a worldly power that you believe has a better economic or immigration policy?


I cannot, and WILL NOT, support any worldly power that has vowed to keep abortion legal for our nation. It will not happen. If I do then the blood of those children would be on my hands.

Your compromise is your business. I am not bought so easily.


To make matters worse, the GOP's immigration policy is anti-Christ. Those illegal immigrants were allowed into our country by our government. Many were flown to cities by our government. We cannot simply round them up and send them back because our government brought them here.

Jon you are missing what I am saying to you. You say that as a Christian we should not try to influence the political powers because Christ did not do so. But the Apostles did try to influence the political powers and that was why it was said they turned the world upside down. As Christians we are to point out the evil and to resist its' power in the world.

That you can so easily accept this evil is shocking. That is the compromise that you have made.

 

[Silverhair]

No, that is not true. "Vengeance is mine" was already accepted Scripture.
Jesus not only tells us not to resist evil but to allow the World to be the World (trun the other cheek).

Not only that, but we have Jesus' example that we can follow when it comes to trying to make the World godly. He said not to. The World is already condemned.

And, nobody here is even talking about making the World less evil when they suggest supporting a "power of darkness" to fight a "greater evil".

Christians have decided to follow the wolf that wears sheep's clothing in order to fight against the economic policies of the wolf that proudly looks like a wolf.


Read @Van 's comments. He is suggesting that we support a platform that seeks to keep abortion federally legal. He supports a government that will allow children to be killed as long as the people want to kill children. Why? Because they look more like sheep than the wolves on the other side.


You tell me - why should I support a secular power that has vowed to keep abortion federally legal - that has vowed to let the people decide whether to kill children?

I get it is against another secular power that celebrates abortion. But I will not join my voice with any party that supports allowing the murder of children.....even if I think they have a better economic plan.

Jon I am surprised that you will deny clear scripture to support your view.

Yes I know the world is already condemned but that does not mean that we are to stop resisting the evil in this world. What do you think Christians have been doing for the last 2000 years? It seems you have chosen to put your head in the sand and do nothing as it could lead to you being a target.

That of course is your choice but I would rather stand and resist the evil and die on my feet that take a knee and live in submission to the evil.

 

[JonC]

Jon I am surprised that you will deny clear scripture to support your view.

That is one thing I will not do.

Thus far you have not provided even one passage that tells us we must be a participant in a secular world power or be guilty of supporting evil. You have said it, but you have provided no Biblical support.

I believe we are not to compromise Christ in our lives. That is why I refuse to support a political party.

That is the opposite of submitting to evil. That is resisting evil in our lives and hearts. That is not turning back to the concerns of the World. That is resisting not the evil of the World but trusting God.

You make it sound like Jesus was submitting to evil by allowing the wicked to nail Him to a cross without fighting back. You seem to detest that He resisted not evil to the point He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, not opening up His mouth in condemnation against the World.

But had Jesus led the life you believe to be the Christian standard then where would we be today?


I believe it would be a sin for me to support a power that has vowed to make sure citizens have the right to decide if they will allow children to be slaughtered in their mother's womb.

But that is what you believe a necessary "Christian" compromise in order to protect the economy and address immigration.


The Bible tells us that to be a friend of the World is to be an enemy of God. That so many Christians now yoke themselves with forces of darkness in hopes of a better financial outlook shows us exactly what they value.

 

[JonC]

Jon you are missing what I am saying to you. You say that as a Christian we should not try to influence the political powers because Christ did not do so. But the Apostles did try to influence the political powers and that was why it was said they turned the world upside down. As Christians we are to point out the evil and to resist its' power in the world.

That you can so easily accept this evil is shocking. That is the compromise that you have made.

No. That is NOT what I said.

I said that we DO influence the World. We don't, obviously, influence those powers because those powers are spiritual powers of evil (we are not going to change Satan, we are not going to make evil somehow good even though many here pretend it is).

You make another false statement against me, but I get it is probably that you didn't grasp the point.

We do not accept evil. We do accept God's Word that the World is and enemy of God, so we accept the situation because God is not a liar.

But evil we stand against by standing in Christ.

The issue is you seem to want to stand for Christ but first you want to make the World good so that your stand doesn't put you at odds with Satan.

You are compromised. The reason is every aspect you have expressed as important has nothing to do with Christ.

You say I should support allowing citizens decide to kill babies because that party would usher in a better economy and deport people the current administration allowed in the country.

I say any support for allowing citizens the option to kill children is evil, even if there is a greater evil.

 

[Silverhair]

That is one thing I will not do.

Thus far you have not provided even one passage that tells us we must be a participant in a secular world power or be guilty of supporting evil. You have said it, but you have provided no Biblical support.

I believe we are not to compromise Christ in our lives. That is why I refuse to support a political party.

That is the opposite of submitting to evil. That is resisting evil in our lives and hearts. That is not turning back to the concerns of the World. That is resisting not the evil of the World but trusting God.

You make it sound like Jesus was submitting to evil by allowing the wicked to nail Him to a cross without fighting back. You seem to detest that He resisted not evil to the point He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, not opening up His mouth in condemnation against the World.

But had Jesus led the life you believe to be the Christian standard then where would we be today?


I believe it would be a sin for me to support a power that has vowed to make sure citizens have the right to decide if they will allow children to be slaughtered in their mother's womb.

But that is what you believe a necessary "Christian" compromise in order to protect the economy and address immigration.


The Bible tells us that to be a friend of the World is to be an enemy of God. That so many Christians now yoke themselves with forces of darkness in hopes of a better financial outlook shows us exactly what they value.

Jon all you have done is twist what the bible says. You completely ignore what Christians down through the ages have done starting with with Christ. He pointed out the sin of the Pharisees just as the Apostles stood against Rome and the Sanhedrin.

We would not be Christians if men and women of faith had done as you say you are going to do. Stand back and not get involved. You are in fact the one that is compromising with the world.

The fact we have a bible is proof that the Apostles and Christians stood against the political powers of their day.

You are willing to stand back and let evil reign.

You have made your choice to not vote, I see that as failing your Christian responsibility but you see it as differently.

 

[Van]

SNIP
Read @Van 's comments. He is suggesting that we support a platform that seeks to keep abortion federally legal. He supports a government that will allow children to be killed as long as the people want to kill children. Why? Because they look more like sheep than the wolves on the other side.

You tell me - why should I support a secular power that has vowed to keep abortion federally legal - that has vowed to let the people decide whether to kill children?

I get it is against another secular power that celebrates abortion. But I will not join my voice with any party that supports allowing the murder of children.....even if I think they have a better economic plan.

Please address the position I stated, instead of making up a series of strawman arguments.

1) Did I say we should keep abortion federally legal? No quote will be forthcoming. The Democrats what to keep abortion legal.

2) Supporting the opportunity for the people to make the laws, rather than 9 unelected judges, is a view I do agree with, even when the people sometimes make bad law.

3) I support school choice, rather than slavery to the state.

4) You are free to support the Democrats, because the GOP is flawed, but the view does not seem rational.

 

[Silverhair]

No. That is NOT what I said.

I said that we DO influence the World. We don't, obviously, influence those powers because those powers are spiritual powers of evil (we are not going to change Satan, we are not going to make evil somehow good even though many here pretend it is).

You make another false statement against me, but I get it is probably that you didn't grasp the point.

We do not accept evil. We do accept God's Word that the World is and enemy of God, so we accept the situation because God is not a liar.

But evil we stand against by standing in Christ.

The issue is you seem to want to stand for Christ but first you want to make the World good so that your stand doesn't put you at odds with Satan.

You are compromised. The reason is every aspect you have expressed as important has nothing to do with Christ.

You say I should support allowing citizens decide to kill babies because that party would usher in a better economy and deport people the current administration allowed in the country.

I say any support for allowing citizens the option to kill children is evil, even if there is a greater evil.

Lets get something straight here Jon. You say you will not vote as neither party is moral. I agree nether is. You hold up Christ as our standard, agreed. But what you continue to ignore is that He and the Apostles stood against the political powers just as Christians down through the years have done.

I am sorry that you have so misunderstood the bible. You have extinguished your light and lost your saltiness.

 

[JonC]

Please address the position I stated, instead of making up a series of strawman arguments.

1) Did I say we should keep abortion federally legal? No quote will be forthcoming. The Democrats what to keep abortion legal.

2) Supporting the opportunity for the people to make the laws, rather than 9 unelected judges, is a view I do agree with, even when the people sometimes make bad law.

3) I support school choice, rather than slavery to the state.

4) You are free to support the Democrats, because the GOP is flawed, but the view does not seem rational.

Sorry. I mistook your comments to be suggesting that you were supporting Trump (who repeatedly said "no ban on abortion" (meaning federally.....give the people the choice of killing those children).

We have school choice. What you mean is you support the government paying for private school.

I won't support the DNC either.

 

[JonC]

Jon all you have done is twist what the bible says. You completely ignore what Christians down through the ages have done starting with with Christ. He pointed out the sin of the Pharisees just as the Apostles stood against Rome and the Sanhedrin.

We would not be Christians if men and women of faith had done as you say you are going to do. Stand back and not get involved. You are in fact the one that is compromising with the world.

The fact we have a bible is proof that the Apostles and Christians stood against the political powers of their day.

You are willing to stand back and let evil reign.

You have made your choice to not vote, I see that as failing your Christian responsibility but you see it as differently.

No. I have not twisted anything.

Jesus said "resist not evil". God said that to befriend the World is to make an enemy of Him. God said not to be concerned with the affairs of the World. God said not to judge the World.


You have failed to make a case for supporting a "lesser evil" (keeping abortion legal at a national level, permitting the people to decide whether to kill children) in order to achieve economic gains.

It seems that your concern is more about your own well being than it is being "salt and light".

 

[JonC]

Lets get something straight here Jon. You say you will not vote as neither party is moral. I agree nether is. You hold up Christ as our standard, agreed. But what you continue to ignore is that He and the Apostles stood against the political powers just as Christians down through the years have done.

I am sorry that you have so misunderstood the bible. You have extinguished your light and lost your saltiness.

Now you are making stuff up.

No passage presents Jesus and the Apostles as standing against the political powers of their time.

They condemned some within the people of God, BUT towards the actual government Jesus simply said "render unto Caesar what is Caesars".

Nowhere does Jesus or the Apostles act as the Jews expected (and you claim).


If I were to join a worldly power it would not be one that supports allowing the people to decide whether to kill babies. That may be a "lesser evil", but I won't support it.

I stand for Christ, which is a stand against evil (even when you are a part of that evil).

 

[Van]

Sorry. I mistook your comments to be suggesting that you were supporting Trump (who repeatedly said "no ban on abortion" (meaning federally.....give the people the choice of killing those children).

We have school choice. What you mean is you support the government paying for private school.

I won't support the DNC either.

We have school choice for the rich. The publicly funded schools are anti-religion schools, but most families have no choice but to send their kids to these indoctrination camps. A clear violation of the first amendment.
[indent[
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances [/indent]

The only way to provide schools which do not violate the First Amendment is to use tax revenue to provide school vouchers so the atheists can go to atheist schools, and religious people can send their kids to the school of their choice.

 

[Silverhair]

No. I have not twisted anything.

Jesus said "resist not evil". God said that to befriend the World is to make an enemy of Him. God said not to be concerned with the affairs of the World. God said not to judge the World.


You have failed to make a case for supporting a "lesser evil" (keeping abortion legal at a national level, permitting the people to decide whether to kill children) in order to achieve economic gains.

It seems that your concern is more about your own well being than it is being "salt and light".

You continue to ignore context but I am seeing that is a common tactic on this board.

Since you are so insistent on "resist not evil" I have to conclude that you do not lock your doors and just leave your keys in your car doors unlocked. You are being selective in your use of that out of context quote.

You have failed to make your case of stand back and do nothing. The bible has made my case that we are to be involved. Scripture says we are to be the salt and light that you claim we are not to be.

 

[Silverhair]

Now you are making stuff up.

No passage presents Jesus and the Apostles as standing against the political powers of their time.

They condemned some within the people of God, BUT towards the actual government Jesus simply said "render unto Caesar what is Caesars".

Nowhere does Jesus or the Apostles act as the Jews expected (and you claim).


If I were to join a worldly power it would not be one that supports allowing the people to decide whether to kill babies. That may be a "lesser evil", but I won't support it.

I stand for Christ, which is a stand against evil (even when you are a part of that evil).

How foolish of you Jon. Was Christ crucified by the Jews powers were the Apostles persecuted by the Roman powers? You have got to get your head out of the sand.

Christianity has been at odds with the political powers from the start and will continue to be. We are told not to be part of the world not to ignore the evil in the world. We are to fight against it but you have chosen to just bend the knee. By saying you will not support the "lesser evil" you are by your refusal to be engaged are supporting the greater evil.