The Social Gospel?

[kyredneck]

Okay. So you wouldn't 'turn the other cheek'.

18 If it be possible, as much as in you lieth, be at peace with all men. Ro 12

It's just not possible for some of us to be at peace with someone who is invading our home intending us harm.

Just not possible.

 

[Mikoo]

@JonC

I think one of the biggest issues about becoming a part of the World to change the World is we have to comoromise our faith.

There are ways, other than voting, to speak up against evil in this world.

You, for example, cannot support a political party in the US without supporting abortion as a choice (either an individual right or an issue for the people to decide).

Unfortunately, that is true.

But that is how our politics is designed (it is a government of the people), so by definition it is evil and a compromise. It is worldly.

Could a Christian run for political office and carry out 1 Peter 2:13-16?

 

[OnlyaSinner]

Scripture tells us why the government crucified Jesus. The Jews gave Him over to be killed.

Scripture tells us why the Jews handed Him over. They feared He would spark a rebellion (they viewed Jesus as being.....well.....like you....but Jesus corrected them).

.

That was their spoken excuse, as Caiaphas said in John 11:49-50 (and unknowingly, he prophesized Jesus' dying for all the children of God - vv51-52.) However, their real reason was more likely because He threatened their religious hegemony and privilege.

 

[JonC]

Okay. So you wouldn't 'turn the other cheek'.

I would. I would prevent the guy from harming my family, but I would not seek to do the same as he intended to me.

I do not understand how your interpret "turn the other cheek" to mean "don't protect your family".

I don't interpret the passage that way. So we will disagree.


And protecting those in my responsibility does not mean becoming "of the World". If there was a case where the only way to protect my family was to become the World then I wouldn't. God is in control.


This is the key, BTW. The ONLY reason a Christian would become "the World", support a political party that is set against God, is a lack of faith in God.

That is what I see when I see professing Christians supporting a platform that vows to keep abortion on demand abortion choice for the people (the GOP), and that is what I see when we see professing Christians supporting a platform that views abortion as a right.

They do not have the faith to put on the armor of God and stand, so they toss aside that armor and pick up worldy political weapons, supporting evil to obtain whatever agenda they desire.

And they call this evil "good".

 

[JonC]

That was their spoken excuse, as Caiaphas said in John 11:49-50 (and unknowingly, he prophesized Jesus' dying for all the children of God - vv51-52.) However, their real reason was more likely because He threatened their religious hegemony and privilege.

I disagree. Those are the same reason.

The Jews were expecting a messiah to lead a movement against a corrupt government and to establish a godly nation.

You have to remember Jesus was born not long after the Hasmonean period. The Jews sought a messiah along the lines of Yehudah HaMakabi. Their focus was an earthly kingdom to address the political powers of their age.

The concern was that this would cause the government to retaliate.

This would, as you point out, have the effect of stripping the Sadducees of power.

 

[JonC]

18 If it be possible, as much as in you lieth, be at peace with all men. Ro 12

It's just not possible for some of us to be at peace with someone who is invading our home intending us harm.

Just not possible.

Oh....I'd be at peace. He'd be squirming on the ground, waiting for the cops, but I'd be at peace.

 

[Silverhair]

The issue is that I am saying we ARE to stand as Christ and Hos disciples did. That IS action.

I provided passages describing their action ans said that is what we SHOULD do. That is what I advocate doing.

BUT that is not what you ate talking about. You are talking about political action within a secular politics system.

Jesus COULD have supported a political sect. Paul COULD have taken a political stance towards the Roman senate. Jesus COULD have been active politically to address immorality, economic oppression, abortion, etc. in the government.

BUT HE DIDN'T. HIS DISCIPLES DIDNT.

By your standard Jesus supported evil by not being politically active.


AGAIN - you provide no passages, just unsubstantiated claims that fail the test of Scripture.

Can you even provide one passage that Jesus supported a political sect to influence the World?????

No, of course you can't.

We must take action - but we have to do kingdom work in kingdom ways.

Jon the verses that you have presented DO NOT support your position. You have ignored context and read into the verse what you need to find.

Did God {Jesus} use Pharaoh and Cyrus the political powers of their day to accomplish His goals? Have Christians down through the ages used the political powers to accomplish Gods' goals?

By your logic we are not to resist evil when we see it.

Jon the verses that you have presented DO NOT support your position. You have ignored context and read into them what you need to find.

Did God {Jesus} use Pharaoh and Cyrus the political power of their day to accomplish His goals?

By your logic we are not to resist evil when we see it.

You have questioned the faith of those that do not think as you do

“...support a political party that is set against God, is a lack of faith in God. “

”I think one of the biggest issues about becoming a part of the World to change the World is we have to comoromise our faith. ”

“You are "of the World".”

To repeat what I said to your before

Have you not said that you will not vote. By stepping back you have shown your lack of faith. You do not trust God to accomplish His goals through even that lesser evil as you call it. By standing aside you have cease to be salt or light.

Christians down through history have stood against the evils of this world even while they were in the world. They engaged with the sinners of this world to accomplish the greater good of moving the kingdom forward.

If the apostles had done as you suggest then the gospel message would never have gotten out of Israel. You are being very shortsighted.

I do not question your faith but I do question your understanding of scripture with regard to this issue.

It seems you prefer the easy road, the road that avoids any trouble or persecution.

 

[JonC]

Jon the verses that you have presented DO NOT support your position. You have ignored context and read into the verse what you need to find.

Did God {Jesus} use Pharaoh and Cyrus the political powers of their day to accomplish His goals? Have Christians down through the ages used the political powers to accomplish Gods' goals?

By your logic we are not to resist evil when we see it.

Jon the verses that you have presented DO NOT support your position. You have ignored context and read into them what you need to find.

Did God {Jesus} use Pharaoh and Cyrus the political power of their day to accomplish His goals?

By your logic we are not to resist evil when we see it.

You have questioned the faith of those that do not think as you do

“...support a political party that is set against God, is a lack of faith in God. “

”I think one of the biggest issues about becoming a part of the World to change the World is we have to comoromise our faith. ”

“You are "of the World".”

To repeat what I said to your before

Have you not said that you will not vote. By stepping back you have shown your lack of faith. You do not trust God to accomplish His goals through even that lesser evil as you call it. By standing aside you have cease to be salt or light.

Christians down through history have stood against the evils of this world even while they were in the world. They engaged with the sinners of this world to accomplish the greater good of moving the kingdom forward.

If the apostles had done as you suggest then the gospel message would never have gotten out of Israel. You are being very shortsighted.

I do not question your faith but I do question your understanding of scripture with regard to this issue.

It seems you prefer the easy road, the road that avoids any trouble or persecution.

Yes, they do. Although you may interpret one differently, the remainder does.

We are commanded to avoid evil. We are commanded to not be "of the World". We are told we are to be a people separated from the World.

How do you justify supporting evil to achieve your political goals???

You have not provided even one verse to support being a part of secular politics. You claimed Jesus and His disciples resisted evil through politics, but you have yet to provide a passage.

God does work out everything for the good. That does not mean we should support evil - something you claimed Jesus did - for a greater good.


And no, it is not easy to try and be Christlike. It was MUCH easier when all I had to do was support a worldly power to do the work.


You have never justified supporting evil to accomplish economic and immigration agendas.

In principle, you have not even justified supporting evil at all, although you claim not to do so is also evil.


So you tell me - how do you justify compromising Christianity to support evil in order to get the things you want???

 

[JonC]

@Silverhair -

Better yet....which platform do you believe a Christian can support. Let's look at what we would be supporting first, so we know exactly how much our desired outcome will cost in terms of our faith.

Most professing Christians here would say the GOP (Trump this go round).

That would be supporting:

1. Same sex marriage (since 2016)
2. A dedication to representing LGBT conservatives and their interests (Trump's platform for a "more modern Republican Party"
3. Trump's vow to keep abortion on demand abortion choice for the people.


I believe those parts of Trump's platform are evil. Abortion is killing a baby. As Christians we should not represent LGBT interests, even if they are conservative.

Would you be willing to accept supporting those evils if the compromise gave you the economic and immigration policies you value?

Why or why not?

 

[JonC]

@JonC

I think one of the biggest issues about becoming a part of the World to change the World is we have to comoromise our faith.

There are ways, other than voting, to speak up against evil in this world.

You, for example, cannot support a political party in the US without supporting abortion as a choice (either an individual right or an issue for the people to decide).

Unfortunately, that is true.

But that is how our politics is designed (it is a government of the people), so by definition it is evil and a compromise. It is worldly.

Could a Christian run for political office and carry out 1 Peter 2:13-16?

I agree. When we compromise our faith to change the world it is us, not the world, that changes.

I don't know the answer to your last question.

The problem is politics IS compromise. It has to be in the US because we have a government of the people.

Would it be right to legislate Christian values on a nation that is a Christian minority? That is what we are ultimately talking about.

And holding office means that you have to make compromises to get less of what you want.

The GOP did that with SSM. They realized that they needed the LGBT conservatives vote. They did that with abortion.

Politics is give and take, so you have to be willing to give (often on moral issues) to get some of what you want.

And you are a part of a party that supports evil.

So my answer is I couldn't hold office because that'd be too great a compromise.

But each of us will be held accountable for our actions and voice. So each of us have to make our own decision.

I can't support:

1. Same sex marriage
2. A dedication to representing LGBT conservatives and their interests
3. Trump's vow to keep abortion on demand abortion choice for the people.

So I will not vote. There is nothing good in the platform that woukd make me support those evils.

@Van has no problem supporting those evils for the possibility of the government partially funding private schools.

We each have to look at what we support and make up their own minds.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair -

Better yet....which platform do you believe a Christian can support. Let's look at what we would be supporting first, so we know exactly how much our desired outcome will cost in terms of our faith.

Most professing Christians here would say the GOP (Trump this go round).

That would be supporting:

1. Same sex marriage (since 2016)
2. A dedication to representing LGBT conservatives and their interests (Trump's platform for a "more modern Republican Party"
3. Trump's vow to keep abortion on demand abortion choice for the people.


I believe those parts of Trump's platform are evil. Abortion is killing a baby. As Christians we should not represent LGBT interests, even if they are conservative.

Would you be willing to accept supporting those evils if the compromise gave you the economic and immigration policies you value?

Why or why not?

Did you forget, I do not vote in your USA elections. I am a Canadian.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, they do. Although you may interpret one differently, the remainder does.

We are commanded to avoid evil. We are commanded to not be "of the World". We are told we are to be a people separated from the World.

How do you justify supporting evil to achieve your political goals???

You have not provided even one verse to support being a part of secular politics. You claimed Jesus and His disciples resisted evil through politics, but you have yet to provide a passage.

God does work out everything for the good. That does not mean we should support evil - something you claimed Jesus did - for a greater good.


And no, it is not easy to try and be Christlike. It was MUCH easier when all I had to do was support a worldly power to do the work.


You have never justified supporting evil to accomplish economic and immigration agendas.

In principle, you have not even justified supporting evil at all, although you claim not to do so is also evil.


So you tell me - how do you justify compromising Christianity to support evil in order to get the things you want???

Amazing how you want to come across as so righteous but what you actually do is come across as self-righteous.

You have completely missed what Christ the apostles and many Christians down through the years have done.

Strange how you disagree with Christians doing the same thing that God did when He used immoral powers to accomplish His goals.

 

[JonC]

Did you forget, I do not vote in your USA elections. I am a Canadian.

I didn't.

Do you not have political parties in Canada?

If you were to support a political party in Canada, which one?

If you were a US citizen, who'd get your support?

 

[JonC]

Amazing how you want to come across as so righteous but what you actually do is come across as self-righteous.

You have completely missed what Christ the apostles and many Christians down through the years have done.

Strange how you disagree with Christians doing the same thing that God did when He used immoral powers to accomplish His goals.

The charge of self-righteousness is often thrown at Christians who seek to resist sin in their lives and live a holy life. I fail at that goal, but you are correct that it is my goal. I don't mind if you view an aversion to sin as me being self-righteous. You'd certainly believe the same of Jesus' disciples.

I have not missed what Jesus did. You simply made up claims about Jesus and the Disciples and are trying to hide that fact. You provide mo passages that show Jesus even condemning the immorality of the government, much less trying to change it (and failing at the attempt).

It is not strange that I disagree with Chriatians alienating themselves from Christ to play God. I'd say the same of Christians entering a Muslim community and killing every man, woman, and child (something God commanded of Israel against a people).

God works out all things for the good. We don't. God does. And God doesn't do this by supporting evil, or be coming a part of that evil.


Your insistence that I should support abortion in order to use a political platform to work out for the good is not something I can entertain because I am not God and I have been commanded by God in Scripture to abstain from evil.

You prove my point by insisting we have the ability to raise up and tear down governments. This is an utter lack of faith in God. You resist obedience due to not trusting that God is in control of political powers.

 

[Mikoo]

I would. I would prevent the guy from harming my family, but I would not seek to do the same as he intended to me.

I do not understand how your interpret "turn the other cheek" to mean "don't protect your family".

I don't interpret the passage that way. So we will disagree.


And protecting those in my responsibility does not mean becoming "of the World". If there was a case where the only way to protect my family was to become the World then I wouldn't. God is in control.


This is the key, BTW. The ONLY reason a Christian would become "the World", support a political party that is set against God, is a lack of faith in God.

That is what I see when I see professing Christians supporting a platform that vows to keep abortion on demand abortion choice for the people (the GOP), and that is what I see when we see professing Christians supporting a platform that views abortion as a right.

They do not have the faith to put on the armor of God and stand, so they toss aside that armor and pick up worldy political weapons, supporting evil to obtain whatever agenda they desire.

And they call this evil "good".

How convenient your interpretations of God's Word are.

 

[Mikoo]

I agree. When we compromise our faith to change the world it is us, not the world, that changes.

I don't know the answer to your last question.

The problem is politics IS compromise. It has to be in the US because we have a government of the people.

Would it be right to legislate Christian values on a nation that is a Christian minority? That is what we are ultimately talking about.

And holding office means that you have to make compromises to get less of what you want.

The GOP did that with SSM. They realized that they needed the LGBT conservatives vote. They did that with abortion.

Politics is give and take, so you have to be willing to give (often on moral issues) to get some of what you want.

And you are a part of a party that supports evil.

So my answer is I couldn't hold office because that'd be too great a compromise.

But each of us will be held accountable for our actions and voice. So each of us have to make our own decision.

I can't support:

1. Same sex marriage
2. A dedication to representing LGBT conservatives and their interests
3. Trump's vow to keep abortion on demand abortion choice for the people.

So I will not vote. There is nothing good in the platform that woukd make me support those evils.

@Van has no problem supporting those evils for the possibility of the government partially funding private schools.

We each have to look at what we support and make up their own minds.

So as a Christian politician you would compromise your Christian values?

 

[DaveXR650]

Did you forget, I do not vote in your USA elections. I am a Canadian.

You should just ask for a mail in ballot. Everybody else does.

 

[Silverhair]

I didn't.

Do you not have political parties in Canada?

If you were to support a political party in Canada, which one?

If you were a US citizen, who'd get your support?

CPC Conservative Party of Canada.

GOP

 

[Silverhair]

The charge of self-righteousness is often thrown at Christians who seek to resist sin in their lives and live a holy life. I fail at that goal, but you are correct that it is my goal. I don't mind if you view an aversion to sin as me being self-righteous. You'd certainly believe the same of Jesus' disciples.

I have not missed what Jesus did. You simply made up claims about Jesus and the Disciples and are trying to hide that fact. You provide mo passages that show Jesus even condemning the immorality of the government, much less trying to change it (and failing at the attempt).

It is not strange that I disagree with Chriatians alienating themselves from Christ to play God. I'd say the same of Christians entering a Muslim community and killing every man, woman, and child (something God commanded of Israel against a people).

God works out all things for the good. We don't. God does. And God doesn't do this by supporting evil, or be coming a part of that evil.


Your insistence that I should support abortion in order to use a political platform to work out for the good is not something I can entertain because I am not God and I have been commanded by God in Scripture to abstain from evil.

You prove my point by insisting we have the ability to raise up and tear down governments. This is an utter lack of faith in God. You resist obedience due to not trusting that God is in control of political powers.

Do you not have the OT in your bible? Do you not know who Cyrus or Pharaoh were? Did God not use those evil powers to accomplish His goals. Is Christ not God in your view?

Yes God does work all things for the good even those votes cast for a party you may not like. Why do you not trust God to accomplish His goals?

You question my faith but I actually trust God to accomplish what He has set out to do. You on the other hand seem to think you have to help Him. Or it could be that your standing back is just part of His plan.

I know this may seem strange to you but God actually uses people to raise up or tear down governments. It's called voting. He has even used immoral governments to accomplish His goals. If you actually trusted all of scripture instead of some out of context selective verses you would understand that.

 

[Silverhair]

You should just ask for a mail in ballot. Everybody else does.

From what I have read it seems, like candy at Halloween, they hand them out to anybody.