The Social Gospel?

[JonC]

CPC Conservative Party of Canada.

GOP

This is what I mean. Looking at the CPC and GOP they are very similar. Both compromise, probably out of necessity, but they still supprt evil (probably to lesser degree than their competitors).

Each one of us has to decide what compromises they will make. Your choice is too extreme for me.

One main issue is that a government cannot legislate morality. If you address as Christia government over a non-Christian nation (like the US and Canada) then you have an oligarchy. That may be Roman Catholic, not Christian.

Another is actively supporting abortion as a choice. Another is the normalization of homosexuality.

I cannot knowingly support evil, even if I think it will stand against othe evils. The cost of your compromise is too great. It is willful sin to oppose evil.

 

[JonC]

Do you not have the OT in your bible? Do you not know who Cyrus or Pharaoh were? Did God not use those evil powers to accomplish His goals. Is Christ not God in your view?

Yes God does work all things for the good even those votes cast for a party you may not like. Why do you not trust God to accomplish His goals?

You question my faith but I actually trust God to accomplish what He has set out to do. You on the other hand seem to think you have to help Him. Or it could be that your standing back is just part of His plan.

I know this may seem strange to you but God actually uses people to raise up or tear down governments. It's called voting. He has even used immoral governments to accomplish His goals. If you actually trusted all of scripture instead of some out of context selective verses you would understand that.

By your reasoning Christiands should have supported Christian persecutin, the murder of missionaries in Africa, and the Holocaust because God used those things.

You are confusing yourself with God. We are called to obedience, not to do evil for good reasons becuse God may use it.

 

[JonC]

Do you not have the OT in your bible? Do you not know who Cyrus or Pharaoh were? Did God not use those evil powers to accomplish His goals. Is Christ not God in your view?

Yes God does work all things for the good even those votes cast for a party you may not like. Why do you not trust God to accomplish His goals?

You question my faith but I actually trust God to accomplish what He has set out to do. You on the other hand seem to think you have to help Him. Or it could be that your standing back is just part of His plan.

I know this may seem strange to you but God actually uses people to raise up or tear down governments. It's called voting. He has even used immoral governments to accomplish His goals. If you actually trusted all of scripture instead of some out of context selective verses you would understand that.

There were two sons,one good and one evil. When their father got deathly ill one son prayed for his recovery because he loved his father but the other for his father's death because he wanted an inheritance. It was God's will to take the father that night.

Which was the good son?
Which was the evil son?


God does not need men to vote in order to tear down and raise up nations. In fact, voting never has that outcome.

 

[Silverhair]

By your reasoning Christiands should have supported Christian persecutin, the murder of missionaries in Africa, and the Holocaust because God used those things.

You are confusing yourself with God. We are called to obedience, not to do evil for good reasons becuse God may use it.

Come on Jon now you are just being stupid with your comments. I can see that you are frustrated because you have not been able to convince others that your view is the only view possible for a faithful Christian.

You just will not accept the fact that God has used immoral powers to accomplish His end goal. As @DaveXR650 pointed out to you God used sinful men to accomplish His goal re slavery.

 

[JonC]

Come on Jon now you are just being stupid with your comments. I can see that you are frustrated because you have not been able to convince others that your view is the only view possible for a faithful Christian.

You just will not accept the fact that God has used immoral powers to accomplish His end goal. As @DaveXR650 pointed out to you God used sinful men to accomplish His goal re slavery.

I'm not trying to win anybody over. I am not frustrated (I do wish I had power at home, but I'm not frustrated).

Do I believe that abortion is evil? Yes.

Do I believe supporting a platform that views abortion as a choice is evil? Yes

Do I believe the normalization of homosexuality is evil? Yes.

Do I believe that supporting those things above is evil? Yes.

It isn't silly. I simply reject supporting evil to hopefully obtain a desirable outcome.

You have resorted again to making false accusations (old habit for you). I did say that God uses evil men for His good. But you have not provided a passage commanding us to be those evil men.

We are taught, in the Bible, to flee...not support...evil. We are taught to obey God and trust Him for the outcome.

The idea that we should support evil to do good is foreign to Scripture.

You holding your nose when you vote should be telling you something about what you are supporting with your vote. You hold your nose because you recognize the evil but want to block out from your mind some of the things you are supporting.

 

[Silverhair]

I'm not trying to win anybody over. I am not frustrated (I do wish I had power at home, but I'm not frustrated).

Do I believe that abortion is evil? Yes.

Do I believe supporting a platform that views abortion as a choice is evil? Yes

Do I believe the normalization of homosexuality is evil? Yes.

Do I believe that supporting those things above is evil? Yes.

It isn't silly. I simply reject supporting evil to hopefully obtain a desirable outcome.

You have resorted again to making false accusations (old habit for you). I did say that God uses evil men for His good. But you have not provided a passage commanding us to be those evil men.

We are taught, in the Bible, to flee...not support...evil. We are taught to obey God and trust Him for the outcome.

The idea that we should support evil to do good is foreign to Scripture.

You holding your nose when you vote should be telling you something about what you are supporting with your vote. You hold your nose because you recognize the evil but want to block out from your mind some of the things you are supporting.

You continue to ignore what God has done. God uses us both Christians and non-believes to accomplish His goals. You do not seem to grasp that reality. It is a good thing that many Christians did not hold to your do not get involved view. What kind of world would we be living in if we let evil flourish with no push back from Christians.

That is the world you are advocating.

 

[DaveXR650]

We are taught, in the Bible, to flee...not support...evil. We are taught to obey God and trust Him for the outcome.

The idea that we should support evil to do good is foreign to Scripture.

It's not that we should support evil but we are put in a time and a situation by God's providence. Paul used the fact that he had been born a Roman citizen to his advantage several times. He seemed to be sort of proud to be one, even though the Romans had raped and pillaged the entire known world at the time. We live in a time where we can vote, and convince others to vote, and make alliances to prevent evil and reward good - which is a scriptural reason to have legitimate government according to Romans 13. I don't see why if Romans 13 applied when Rome was running things that it suddenly becomes invalid if we as Christians find ourselves in a position where we might be able to influence for overall good.

 

[JonC]

It's not that we should support evil but we are put in a time and a situation by God's providence. Paul used the fact that he had been born a Roman citizen to his advantage several times. He seemed to be sort of proud to be one, even though the Romans had raped and pillaged the entire known world at the time. We live in a time where we can vote, and convince others to vote, and make alliances to prevent evil and reward good - which is a scriptural reason to have legitimate government according to Romans 13. I don't see why if Romans 13 applied when Rome was running things that it suddenly becomes invalid if we as Christians find ourselves in a position where we might be able to influence for overall good.

I agree we are put in a time and place for God's purposes.

Paul used his citizenship to be a witness of the gospel.

I think that we are to do the same. We use our rights to share the gospel, to reach individuals, to be "salt and light".

My issue is I see Christians actually joining a political party that stands on a platform that is evil.

I do not believe Paul would have partnered with or supported a political power that stood for abortion as a choice, the normalization of homosexuality, and SSM.

I agree Paul used his citizenship. I disagree that he used it to support a worldly power to bring about change.


Don't get me wrong - I do believe we share the gospel by engaging with Republicans and Democrats.

But we don't, of course, judge Democrats or Republicans (the World is already condemned). We try to reach individuals that are in the world.


What is the goal of uniting with a worldly power (Democrat or Republican). Is it to change the government (the worldly power, the forces of evil) or is it to reach Republicans and Democrats with the gospel of Jesus Christ?

 

[DaveXR650]

My issue is I see Christians actually joining a political party that stands on a platform that is evil.

This is an issue we all face whether you are voting, working in a public school, a hospital that is saving lives on one floor and doing abortions upstairs, being a police officer who is good yet is backing up unjust policies of a corrupt government and so on. Whatever choice you make is going to be partly wrong and in disagreement with others who also have good intentions.

We simply cannot escape the cesspool we live in and so we do the best we can. You have decided to bail out on the Republicans. I have not, so far, but am close. In the meantime, I plan on reminding them that they could pick up votes like yours if they would once again have some consideration for the baby itself. I too, think the new Republican policy is cringeworthy but looking at the numbers I see why they are doing this. Trump, in his clumsy way, effectively got rid of the fake constitutional right to abortion, only to find out our fellow citizens seem to like it after all. I had hoped that we were for the past 50 years being forced to go along with these policies because of a bad judicial decision. It has been disappointing to realize we actually are getting what we collectively want. God help us all.

 

[JonC]

This is an issue we all face whether you are voting, working in a public school, a hospital that is saving lives on one floor and doing abortions upstairs, being a police officer who is good yet is backing up unjust policies of a corrupt government and so on. Whatever choice you make is going to be partly wrong and in disagreement with others who also have good intentions.

We simply cannot escape the cesspool we live in and so we do the best we can. You have decided to bail out on the Republicans. I have not, so far, but am close. In the meantime, I plan on reminding them that they could pick up votes like yours if they would once again have some consideration for the baby itself. I too, think the new Republican policy is cringeworthy but looking at the numbers I see why they are doing this. Trump, in his clumsy way, effectively got rid of the fake constitutional right to abortion, only to find out our fellow citizens seem to like it after all. I had hoped that we were for the past 50 years being forced to go along with these policies because of a bad judicial decision. It has been disappointing to realize we actually are getting what we collectively want. God help us all.

I agree and disagree.


Working in a public school, for example, is not supporting the "powers of darkness". This is closer to what Paul did (he used his status as a Roman to witness). Now, if the public school forced you to teach evil to children then that would be different. As it is, I know many school teachers who reach children for Christ, who care for children. They would quit if forced to teach evil.

So perhaps in some school systems this would be a problem. Maybe in the future it could be in all public schools. But it isn't at this time. The majority is judged by the minority. My son graduated a couple of years ago, and when he was in public school he saw several of his friends be saved through Christians in the school.


I agree we cannot escape the cesspool. But we do not have to join this cesspool.

I don't mean we avoid reaching out to, and loving, Democrats and Republicans. We have to let people in both political parties know that we are not their opposition, and share the gospel with them.


BUT how can we witness to people of the World if we look identical to them, supporting the same platforms, the same evils, to achieve the same or a competing political agenda?


If I met you at a political event, asked who you supported, and you said "Trump" then I would know you support many of the economic and immigration policies that I believe are important to the nation.

But I would also know that you support abortion as a choice, the normalization of homosexuality, and same sex marriage.

I would not think that you were a Christian because of the evils you are willing to support, even if by compromise.

If you told me you were a Christian I'd take you at your word, but I'd walk away wondering how a Christian could support those evils merely for political gain knowing that it is God who lifts up and tears down nations.

If I were an atheist then I'd view you as wanting an oligarchy, wanting to impose your beliefs on a minority but at the same time supporting the opposite of what you want to force others to obey.


How could you legitimately witness to a young woman seeking an abortion and offer her a better path of you are at the same time supporting a platform that vows to keep abortion a choice?

How can you witness to one caught up in homosexuality if you are supporting a platform that values the normalization of homosexuality and same sex marriage?

 

[JonC]

You continue to ignore what God has done. God uses us both Christians and non-believes to accomplish His goals. You do not seem to grasp that reality. It is a good thing that many Christians did not hold to your do not get involved view. What kind of world would we be living in if we let evil flourish with no push back from Christians.

That is the world you are advocating.

No. I fully acknowledged that God has used very evil men and very evil nations for His purposes.

I am saying that we should not be one of those evil mem God uses.


How could you legitimately witness to a young woman seeking an abortion and offer her a better path of you are at the same time supporting a platform that vows to keep abortion a choice?

How can you witness to one caught up in homosexuality if you are supporting a platform that values the normalization of homosexuality and same sex marriage?

You couldn't. That's hypocrisy.

Your witness, your being "salt and light", would be destroyed by those things you support.

 

[DaveXR650]

Working in a public school, for example, is not supporting the "powers of darkness".

That's not what the home schoolers and Christian schooler parents say. Most say exactly what you said above, that indeed you are supporting the powers of darkness. And the analogy is exactly the same as voting for a political party. I think your argument breaks down here. It is an objective fact that if the Republicans win this time there will be fewer babies killed over the next few years than if they loose. I think you are painted into a corner here. Your argument might hold up if you are talking about merging with a political party but not in voting - not this year.

 

[JonC]

@DaveXR650

Here is a senerio to explain:

You have been working with a young woman who had been seeking an abortion. You explained why it is wrong and offered alternatives. She is almost persuaded, but reads this thread and realizes that you, as a Republican, oppose late term abortion but support abortion as a choice for the people to make.

You could try to explain to her that you only support abortion as a choice because another party would allow late term abortion and require all hospitals and states to perform abortions.

She then rightly points out that your position is not anti-abortion but pro-state rights (the people of the state can decide abortion laws, and in the future change those laws....abortion being a choice of the people).

She rightly concludes that there is a discrepancy between what you are telling her is right and what you are actually supporting.

Your witness is destroyed.

 

[JonC]

That's not what the home schoolers and Christian schooler parents say.

Probably because they are home schooled or in Christian schools.

My wife works in a public school (a middle school). My son recently graduated from high school (a couple of years ago).

We have a friend who's daughter transferred from a Christian school to a public high school (better educational opportunities for what she wanted and better sports opportunities).

They were terrified. She was scared. They had heard so much bad stuff about public schools, but we told them those examples were exaggerated and based off of public schools in the most liberal places.

She has been at the high school for 2 years and is excelling.

It depends on where you live, I suspect. Are the students in public schools more worldly? Some are....probably more than in Christian schools. In public schools you do get children that are neglected, and poor children, even homeless children. So it is a much broader environment.

 

[DaveXR650]

Here is a senerio to explain:

You have been working with a young woman who had been seeking an abortion. You explained why it is wrong and offered alternatives. She is almost persuaded, but reads this thread and realizes that you, as a Republican, oppose late term abortion but support abortion as a choice for the people to make.

The flaw in your logic is your insistence that I am required to actively and wholeheartedly support all the a party's policy or else I'm not allowed to vote. No one else does that. Why should a Christian have to? Many queer liberals do not support the Dem's foreign policy for instance. Many Republicans would like to see the sale of AR's stopped. Jon. No one puts themselves on such a standard.

She rightly concludes that there is a discrepancy between what you are telling her is right and what you are actually supporting.

Your witness is destroyed.

We're talking about politics, not the doctrinal statements of my church. Of course there will be discrepancies, with only two major parties and 100 or more individual policies. By your standards no one could vote.

On a final note if someone contemplating something like an abortion would look at a platform and then call me out for being pro states rights and not really against abortion I would assume she is not really serious and is giving me bogus baloney and in fact has already made up her mind. That argument just doesn't fly.

 

[DaveXR650]

My wife works in a public school (a middle school). My son recently graduated from high school (a couple of years ago).

My wife did too. I could give you the same examples you used there with people we know and have found the same to be true.

 

[JonC]

The flaw in your logic is your insistence that I am required to actively and wholeheartedly support all the a party's policy or else I'm not allowed to vote. No one else does that. Why should a Christian have to? Many queer liberals do not support the Dem's foreign policy for instance. Many Republicans would like to see the sale of AR's stopped. Jon. No one puts themselves on such a standard.

We're talking about politics, not the doctrinal statements of my church. Of course there will be discrepancies, with only two major parties and 100 or more individual policies. By your standards no one could vote.

On a final note if someone contemplating something like an abortion would look at a platform and then call me out for being pro states rights and not really against abortion I would assume she is not really serious and is giving me bogus baloney and in fact has already made up her mind. That argument just doesn't fly.

By voting you are voting to enact a platform. You are actively supporting that platform.

You can't say "I support Trump for President but I do not support Trump doing what he has promised to do". We vote on platforms, on what each candidate states he or she will do.

It is not a flaw. You will be supporting abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality. You will also be supporting Trump's immigration and economic policy. You will be opposing federal requirements that hospitals perform abortion, transgender ideology, big government, and censorship.

But you will be supporting the entire platform with your vote. I understand that you do not want many of those things. But you'd be supporting them nonetheless.

 

[DaveXR650]

But you will be supporting the entire platform with your vote. I understand that you do not want many of those things. But you'd be supporting them nonetheless.

Jon I see your point and in fact my own son will be doing as you are doing in this election. Maybe I'm just more cynical but I tend to think the platforms are designed totally with politics in mind - who and what groups can we include for our benefit versus who do we want to impress by standing against this or that. It's in a large part just a show and even to the extent they are serious they know many of the things can't possibly happen. In the case of the Republican platform Trump probably has never read it as he has never read a paper that long. I imagine Vance has read it over once and therefore has it memorized but that's just him.

 

[JonC]

Jon I see your point and in fact my own son will be doing as you are doing in this election. Maybe I'm just more cynical but I tend to think the platforms are designed totally with politics in mind - who and what groups can we include for our benefit versus who do we want to impress by standing against this or that. It's in a large part just a show and even to the extent they are serious they know many of the things can't possibly happen. In the case of the Republican platform Trump probably has never read it as he has never read a paper that long. I imagine Vance has read it over once and therefore has it memorized but that's just him.

Right now over 65% of evangelical Protestants believe abortion should be legal in most instances.

I believe that this is a direct result of secular politics. Christians have made compromises to their values to accommodate other things (with politics, the main priority has been economics).

With abortion and same sex marriage I was going off of what Trump has said, not the GOP platform.

The GOP platform removed its former stance against same sex marriage but didn't put anything in its place. The GOP also reworked its platform to oppose "late term abortion".

Seeking to move the nation to abandoned murdering her children cannot be accomplished through politics because the majority of Americans believe abortion should be allowed and the US government is representative of its people.

Same with normalizing homosexuality. 71% of Americans support Same Sex Marriage. Over 70% of evangelical Protestants support Same Sex Marriage.

When we join with supporters of these evils we look exactly like supporters of these evils. They profess Christ with their mouths but have ceased being "salt and light".

The only difference between your position is those people believe in what they are supporting while you don't and are just using your vote to support those things because you believe the GOP a better option.


Compare this to the position of Christians who will not compromise their voice, who will abstain from politics because they realize that to do so will mean uniting with causes they believe are wrong.

These Christians can remain active, but they act to try and help women who are seeking abortions to choose another way. They share the gospel hoping these people will be saved. They love and reach out with the gospel to the homosexual people, but they do not unite with that community because they will not be associated with sin.

And they are in a unique position to be witnesses of Christ to both parties without politics being a stumbling block.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[DaveXR650]

Right now over 65% of evangelical Protestants believe abortion should be legal in most instances.

I believe that this is a direct result of secular politics. Christians have made compromises to their values to accommodate other things (with politics, the main priority has been economics).

That would be a good thread. I believe it is a result of compromising churches teaching error. I also believe it is a result of the rise of the libertarian wing of conservativism. And I also think it is a result of the fact that laws are instructive. Fifty years of Roe v Wade being the law of the land has changed our country forever. But I would not turn around and blame the people who worked hard to change the laws.

With abortion and same sex marriage I was going off of what Trump has said, not the GOP platform.

Your arguments have been based on the platform which you continually referred to. That was your choice. I told you the platform was nothing but a political document.

These Christians can remain active, but they act to try and help women who are seeking abortions to choose another way. They share the gospel hoping these people will be saved. They love and reach out with the gospel to the homosexual people, but they do not unite with that community because they will not be associated with sin.

I challenge you to prove that there is this non-political group doing all this. The fact is, the people providing the counseling, the free sonograms, the foster care, and the adopting are the same people voting against abortion.