The Social Gospel?

[JonC]

That would be a good thread. I believe it is a result of compromising churches teaching error. I also believe it is a result of the rise of the libertarian wing of conservativism. And I also think it is a result of the fact that laws are instructive. Fifty years of Roe v Wade being the law of the land has changed our country forever. But I would not turn around and blame the people who worked hard to change the laws.

Your arguments have been based on the platform which you continually referred to. That was your choice. I told you the platform was nothing but a political document.

I challenge you to prove that there is this non-political group doing all this. The fact is, the people providing the counseling, the free sonograms, the foster care, and the adopting are the same people voting against abortion.

Both does (the GOP and DNC) are guilty. But ths is because both sides represent citizens (the majority of Americans are not Christian).

I can provide many groups counseling women, promoting adoption and foster care that ate not political. My church is one. My 2 former churches in TN are others.

If you ate saying that churches either have become political organization or they do not reach out to thse people with help and the gospel then I'd say those churches are not churches at all.


How did the early church address these evils? They experience many of the same (including the normalization of homosexuality and abortion). They, as churches and church members reached out to people. And pagan Rome took notice. People were being saved through this outreach.


We are called to reach the list as members of the body of Christ, not as membes of the powers of darkness...regardless of which flavor.

 

[DaveXR650]

If you ate saying that churches either have become political organization or they do not reach out to thse people with help and the gospel then I'd say those churches are not churches at all.

I am saying that of the people who are actually reaching out to those involved personally with unwanted pregnancies mostly are the same folks who have no problem voting for the lesser of two evils. I reject your argument that those who are actually doing something are a different group.

How did the early church address these evils?

The early church was in a completely different situation. You do what you can, with the methods you have available. We don't know what they would have done in our situation but perhaps we should think about what they would have thought of people who wouldn't even cast a free, secret vote, which might help stop some of what is going on.

 

[JonC]

I am saying that of the people who are actually reaching out to those involved personally with unwanted pregnancies mostly are the same folks who have no problem voting for the lesser of two evils. I reject your argument that those who are actually doing something are a different group.

The early church was in a completely different situation. You do what you can, with the methods you have available. We don't know what they would have done in our situation but perhaps we should think about what they would have thought of people who wouldn't even cast a free, secret vote, which might help stop some of what is going on.

Many Christians participate in politics. Most professing Christians support Same Sex Marriage.

That doesn't make it right.

The Early Church was not in that different a situation.

They could vote (local government and senate....not Emperor, of course) but they abstained. They could hold office, but they didn't. They could have tried to influence their government from within, or influence government policies. But they didn't.

This was one of the charges the Roman pagans used against Christians. They refused to hold office. They refused to participate in politics.

Because of this they were accused of sitting back and not helping society. They were accused of being unpatriotic. And they were accused of being a danger to the Roman Empire.

BUT at the same time they were increasing in number and reaching people with the gospel and meeting needs of people (even the pagans).

In fact, they were growing in number because the way they lived - that holiness, that "called out" state, that obedience - was the gospel in action.

Today Christians have exchanged the gospel of Jesus Christ for politics.

You are also mistaking about another thing. When you cast your vote supporting abortion as a choice and same sex marriage (among the things you want for that price) it is not secret. God knows. You know. Perhaps your family and friends know. Maybe church members know. But most of all you will know that you have made a compromise and supported evil. And you will have to one day account for every "word and deed".

And to what gain? Abortion will continue. The LGBTQ agenda will continue. Evil will continue. And you would have done nothing to resist that evil (you would have supported it).

You may gain an economic policy you like, but that is being persuaded by wealth. You may gain an immigration policy you like, but that is turning to the "concerns of this world".


IF Christians had not compromised a century and a half ago then the church would not be in the state it is today. Christians would not be known as hypocrites - saying one thing and supporting another.

It matters because it downgrades our faith.

I lived in a city that was mostly Christian. When an issue came up most spoke out against it. But it was overwhelmingly passed because these "Christians" knew their vote was secret.

What became of that?? The ordinance passed and non-Christians knew for a fact that our faith in general was fake. Christianity became known without a doubt to be the hypocrisy it had become.


But yes....your support will be secret as far as secrets go in this life. The fact this matters should highlight the problem.

A Christian keeping an affair secret it is no less adultry.

 

[DaveXR650]

@JonC . You do tend to just take everything anyone else says and make it as if they took a position they didn't take. When a Christian votes they are not exchanging the gospel for politics. I've already said I respect your decision not to get involved. You can respect mine without having to assign a reason to me that I don't have.

You are also mistaking about another thing. When you cast your vote supporting abortion as a choice and same sex marriage (among the things you want for that price) it is not secret. God knows. You know.

Same thing with this. You have appointed this as my position. I am not casting a vote supporting abortion as a choice. That's another misrepresentation by you. Your whole last post is a rant that rambles into subjects neither of us can know anything about.

But yes....your support will be secret as far as secrets go in this life. The fact this matters should highlight the problem.

A Christian keeping an affair secret it is no less adultry.

And again. I'm not even sure what kind of tie in this is supposed to have to anything I said but it really sounds bizarre.
You have been on the attack on this thread not just with me but with anyone who disagrees with you. Even when I try to be conciliatory and respect your opinion you come back with these ridiculous debate methods where you try to apply a fake scenario to me and then argue against that.
The simple fact is that if the Democrats win this time there will be far more abortions performed in the next few years than there would be if the Republicans win. The Dems are on record for persecuting those who protest, shutting down pro life clinics, and they have stated they will keep all states from having any kind of restrictions on abortion. There has never been a more clear reason to vote these people out. The only person I have heard who has made a weaker case than you is David French when he tries to explain why he is supporting Kamala.

 

[Silverhair]

No. I fully acknowledged that God has used very evil men and very evil nations for His purposes.

I am saying that we should not be one of those evil mem God uses.


How could you legitimately witness to a young woman seeking an abortion and offer her a better path of you are at the same time supporting a platform that vows to keep abortion a choice?

How can you witness to one caught up in homosexuality if you are supporting a platform that values the normalization of homosexuality and same sex marriage?

You couldn't. That's hypocrisy.

Your witness, your being "salt and light", would be destroyed by those things you support.

I do not live in the idealistic world that you seem to be in. What makes you think that a person could not vote to stop the "greater evil" and not be able to witness to the lost? You do seem to be a tad judgemental there Jon.

God used good Christian men to stand against evil even when they had to do so within immoral governments. You are so closed minded you can not see the truth right in front of you.

Hypocrisy is when you claim to resist evil and then stand back and do nothing to resist it.

 

[JonC]

@JonC . You do tend to just take everything anyone else says and make it as if they took a position they didn't take. When a Christian votes they are not exchanging the gospel for politics. I've already said I respect your decision not to get involved. You can respect mine without having to assign a reason to me that I don't have.

Same thing with this. You have appointed this as my position. I am not casting a vote supporting abortion as a choice. That's another misrepresentation by you. Your whole last post is a rant that rambles into subjects neither of us can know anything about.



And again. I'm not even sure what kind of tie in this is supposed to have to anything I said but it really sounds bizarre.
You have been on the attack on this thread not just with me but with anyone who disagrees with you. Even when I try to be conciliatory and respect your opinion you come back with these ridiculous debate methods where you try to apply a fake scenario to me and then argue against that.
The simple fact is that if the Democrats win this time there will be far more abortions performed in the next few years than there would be if the Republicans win. The Dems are on record for persecuting those who protest, shutting down pro life clinics, and they have stated they will keep all states from having any kind of restrictions on abortion. There has never been a more clear reason to vote these people out. The only person I have heard who has made a weaker case than you is David French when he tries to explain why he is supporting Kamala.

I am not taking what you said and making it appear as if you take another position. I apologize if it appears that way. I shift from addressing you specifically to a more general statement too much.

What I mean is we cannot vote for specific issues we want a candidate to address and abstain from supporting those issues we abhor.

I understand that Harris has a more extreme position. The DNC platform itself is demonic.

I agree with you that whatever stand we take as Christians should be an opposition to the DNC.


My point is that we have choices.

Some Christians will stand in opposition to the DNC without voting.

Some Christians will stand in opposition to the DNC by supporting a political candidate.


Those who choose to support Trump by using their voice to try and get him in office ate supporting his platform (the things Trump says that he will do if elected). And they will be supporting all of the things he says he will do if elected.


The two main points of Trump's campaign that I find evil (I actually find secular politics as a whole evil because we are talking about powers of this world, forces of darkness) is abortion and positions on sexual immorality.

We know Trump will support abortion as a choice because this was accomplished during his last administration. And it was better in terms of forcing hospitals to provide abortion than what was.

But Trump has vowed not to attack abortion, not to make Roe vs Wade a step in banning abortion but to keep abortion a choice for the people to decide.


I am not saying Trump's affirmation of SSM is wrong for the secular government. The secular government SHOULD represent its people. The secular government SHOULD look after the interests of the homosexual community, protect Sane Sex Marriage, etc. because these are the will of the majority of its citizens and many in the GOP (and US) are in this population group.


I am, however, saying that by supporting Trump one is supporting Trump to do the things he says he will do even if one opposes those things.


One who is pro-life but also supports Trump IS supporting abortion as choice even though they dislike abortion and even though they oppose abortion in other ways.


Same with the Harris. Those who vote for Harris simply because they don't want Trump ARE SUPPORTING the things the DNC say they will do even if they don't agree with those things.

Does that make sence and clarify my meaning?

 

[DaveXR650]

Does that make sence and clarify my meaning?

Yes. And like I said earlier, I have close relatives who are Christians and would be on your side in this. I respect your position, especially if you are willing to be consistent with it even in areas that would cause you harm. As for me, I am going to use all legal means possible to thwart the obviously evil agenda of these progressives, who have as much contempt for the average Democrat of 20 years ago as they do us now.

 

[JonC]

Yes. And like I said earlier, I have close relatives who are Christians and would be on your side in this. I respect your position, especially if you are willing to be consistent with it even in areas that would cause you harm. As for me, I am going to use all legal means possible to thwart the obviously evil agenda of these progressives, who have as much contempt for the average Democrat of 20 years ago as they do us now.

Yes, the DNC is a demonic platform. I believe they are the most dangerous party for our nation (I'm not sure they are for our churches).

I should have made my point by flipping the parties instead of using yours as an example.


Suppose I was going to support Harris because I don't like Trump, but I don't support any of Harris' policies.

What I understand from your post is you believe I would be supporting Harris but not her policies by supporting her for President.

My view is I would be supporting all of her policies by supporting her for President even if I didn't agree with any of them.

 

[JonC]

I do not live in the idealistic world that you seem to be in. What makes you think that a person could not vote to stop the "greater evil" and not be able to witness to the lost? You do seem to be a tad judgemental there Jon.

God used good Christian men to stand against evil even when they had to do so within immoral governments. You are so closed minded you can not see the truth right in front of you.

Hypocrisy is when you claim to resist evil and then stand back and do nothing to resist it.

I can accept that we are of different worlds, if that is what you mean. Even those "of the World" often live in a "world" of their own making.

I do not believe a person can support evil without putting their testimony in danger.

You know you are again making false accusations. As a Christian I am asking you to stop and deal honestly with what I have posted. You are allowing your emotions to compromise your character.

I believe that we ARE NOT to stand back and do nothing. As a Christian I believe our responsibility is much more than merely supporting a worldly power.

You have defined the "greater evil" along economic and immigration lines, willing to support abortion and LGBT agendas in order to achieve that "good".

I believe that supporting and-or partnering with pro-abortion and pro-LGBTQ agendas is a step too far.

You are simply willing to compromise more.

 

[JonC]

Yes. And like I said earlier, I have close relatives who are Christians and would be on your side in this. I respect your position, especially if you are willing to be consistent with it even in areas that would cause you harm. As for me, I am going to use all legal means possible to thwart the obviously evil agenda of these progressives, who have as much contempt for the average Democrat of 20 years ago as they do us now.

I think what bothers me is not that Christians support these powers but that they refuse to honestly recognize what they support.

I believe as Christians we have to be careful about how we use our voice.

I'd much prefer an honest statement like "I support this candidate, even though I don't agree with everything in the platform. It is a compromise because I believe it will prevent worse things from occurring".

That would be a fair statement. But that is not what people have been saying.

What they have been saying is they support thos candidate but their support is only for the things they like.

The issue is a vote for a candidate is a vote to elect that person to a office based on a platform which is what that person claims he or she will do.

We do not get to vote for 70% of a candidates platform, it is all or nothing.

So people who support Trump are supporting abortion as a choice, same sex marriage, and the normalization of homosexuality.

They are doing so as a compromise to try and block a more extreme platform.


The ethics of that can be discussed (it depends on which philosophy one holds - moral philosophy or utilitarian philosophy).

But discussion can not be legitimately had when one party claims to vote for 70% of a candidate.

 

[DaveXR650]

I think what bothers me is not that Christians support these powers but that they refuse to honestly recognize what they support.

Quite to the contrary, J.D. Vance once called Trump a cynical A..... (a word we can't use on Baptist Board). And he was right. I have never liked Trump, and have always been of the opinion that since the days of the Moral Majority, Christians have been an embarrassing presence in the GOP. I was for Desantis in the primary season.

But we have a representative form of government. Either Trump or Harris will be our President in a few weeks. If Harris wins, she comes with her platform, her entourage of dog collared transvestites and our representatives in international meetings with Putin and NATO may be wearing such garb, as they do now. The social decay in major cities will be encouraged to continue, with a two tiered law enforcement system that makes cities more and more unlivable. The well documented modern philosophy that these ideas must be supported and celebrated by everyone, no exceptions, or the full force of the government will be on you will continue and become more entrenched in all our institutions and lives.

The respective platforms will be forgotten but both sides come with a complete entourage. Presidential power has increased in the past years and they also get to pick Federal judges. The V.P. will preside over the Senate and can cast a vote if needed. We have no guarantee that Trump won't do something stupid. But we do know that Kamala will. She has said so. Like you said before, she has picked an oaf for a V.P. Trump has a 4 year track record where he did not do too badly. I could not vote for him that time but I will this time. You suit yourself and I understand your concerns, but one or the other will be our rep and our vote is the only thing we have.

 

[JonC]

Quite to the contrary, J.D. Vance once called Trump a cynical A..... (a word we can't use on Baptist Board). And he was right. I have never liked Trump, and have always been of the opinion that since the days of the Moral Majority, Christians have been an embarrassing presence in the GOP. I was for Desantis in the primary season.

But we have a representative form of government. Either Trump or Harris will be our President in a few weeks. If Harris wins, she comes with her platform, her entourage of dog collared transvestites and our representatives in international meetings with Putin and NATO may be wearing such garb, as they do now. The social decay in major cities will be encouraged to continue, with a two tiered law enforcement system that makes cities more and more unlivable. The well documented modern philosophy that these ideas must be supported and celebrated by everyone, no exceptions, or the full force of the government will be on you will continue and become more entrenched in all our institutions and lives.

The respective platforms will be forgotten but both sides come with a complete entourage. Presidential power has increased in the past years and they also get to pick Federal judges. The V.P. will preside over the Senate and can cast a vote if needed. We have no guarantee that Trump won't do something stupid. But we do know that Kamala will. She has said so. Like you said before, she has picked an oaf for a V.P. Trump has a 4 year track record where he did not do too badly. I could not vote for him that time but I will this time. You suit yourself and I understand your concerns, but one or the other will be our rep and our vote is the only thing we have.

I didn't mean you liked Trump (I actually think know he is funny and his "ways" helped him in business). I'm not talking about the person. Unless you ate a personal friend, or family, you probably don't know Trump or Harris. I was talking about their platform - what they say they will do.

I like most of Trump's platform. But I can't just support those things I like. We support the whole platform (when we vote it is supporting a candidate for election to an office to do what he or she said they would do).

Platforms will be forgotten. We tend to remember personalities. But platforms are what matter because that is these personalities trying to accomplish what they said they would accomplish.


Let's look at Trump.

Here are a few things I like:

1. Strong boarder
2. Smaller federal government
3. Economic plan
4. Stronger US military
5. Less involvement in foreign wars
6. Pro-Israel
7. School vouchers or extended tax credits
8. Conservative constitunalists Zjudges
9. Move towards energy independence
10. Women only in women's sports
11. Third party government oversight
12. Ending the Reagan Social Security tax


Here are a few things that I like him opposing:

1. Government paying for transgender surgery
2. Requiring hospitals to provide abortions
3. The transgender "agenda"
4. Big government
5. Sending so much funding overseas
6. Open boarders
7. Government paying for student loans
8. Government providing $25k down-payment
9. Allowing parents to transition minor children
10. Opposing non-realized capital gains tax

Here are a few things I do not like about Trump:

1. Abortion as the choice of citizens in a state
2. Normalization of homosexuality
3. Approval of same sex marriage


NOW...I do realize that those 3 things I do not like about Trump are necessary for him to win the election. Most Christians and citizens in the US approve of those things.

BUT if I support Trump with my vote then I am supporting not only the 12 things I like but also the 3 things I do not like.

I cannot support abortion or the normalization of homosexuality even as a compromise to get what I want and stop what I oppose.

I do not believe that the morality of an action or support depends on the outcome. I believe that God will hold us accountable when we use our voices to support evil. And I do believe abortion and homosexuality to be evil.

So I will continue to stand in Christ against those sins, I'll continue to actively engage those in the world to change those things through the gospel.

But I cannot in good conscious support or join any worldly power that views abortion as a legitimate choice or homosexuality as normal. I just can't.

You do you. I'll do me. We will each answer for our decisions, but not to each other.

 

[DaveXR650]

But I cannot in good conscious support or join any worldly power that views abortion as a legitimate choice or homosexuality as normal. I just can't.

I understand what you're saying. If there were a party that would satisfy your requirements it would probably draw 10% of the vote. That would never be enough to win outright but if it were comprised of voters who were currently sitting out and disciplined enough they could throw support based on negotiations with one of the other parties and force a change in some of the objectionable positions.

The only problem is that you end up with the coalition governments like you have in Europe where the coalition once formed, simply cannot be opposed because they now have by definition a ruling majority. In the US, if one party wins and the other holds House and/or Senate, much less damage is done. The price you pay for a serious third party would be they will never have much representation in the other houses, at least for years. All I'm saying there is that there are real reasons to compromise your principles for a greater good, based on strategy. But still, if a few million guys like you who are currently not voting could guarantee a million extra votes to the party that would change their platform they would have to listen.

 

[JonC]

I understand what you're saying. If there were a party that would satisfy your requirements it would probably draw 10% of the vote. That would never be enough to win outright but if it were comprised of voters who were currently sitting out and disciplined enough they could throw support based on negotiations with one of the other parties and force a change in some of the objectionable positions.

The only problem is that you end up with the coalition governments like you have in Europe where the coalition once formed, simply cannot be opposed because they now have by definition a ruling majority. In the US, if one party wins and the other holds House and/or Senate, much less damage is done. The price you pay for a serious third party would be they will never have much representation in the other houses, at least for years. All I'm saying there is that there are real reasons to compromise your principles for a greater good, based on strategy. But still, if a few million guys like you who are currently not voting could guarantee a million extra votes to the party that would change their platform they would have to listen.

I would have any issue supporting a political power....but if it were not for moral problems I could understand compromising (like if Trump didn't support abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality, but held economic plans or immigration policies that I didn't quite like).

Politics is participation in the powers of this world, so there will always be some compromise required to participate.

Everybody just has to weigh the pros and cons and decide for themselves what compromises they are willing to make. This is where prayer...and listening...comes in. Everybody needs to follow their spiritual convictions.

 

[Silverhair]

I can accept that we are of different worlds, if that is what you mean. Even those "of the World" often live in a "world" of their own making.

I do not believe a person can support evil without putting their testimony in danger.

You know you are again making false accusations. As a Christian I am asking you to stop and deal honestly with what I have posted. You are allowing your emotions to compromise your character.

I believe that we ARE NOT to stand back and do nothing. As a Christian I believe our responsibility is much more than merely supporting a worldly power.

You have defined the "greater evil" along economic and immigration lines, willing to support abortion and LGBT agendas in order to achieve that "good".

I believe that supporting and-or partnering with pro-abortion and pro-LGBTQ agendas is a step too far.

You are simply willing to compromise more.

You keep saying the same thing over and over and if you want to stand back and do nothing that is your choice. You just do not have the right to tell others that they lack faith if they do not think and act as you do.

My character has not been compromised Jon. It is a good thing that most Christians do not think as you do.

But since we have been over this ground more than once we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[JonC]

You keep saying the same thing over and over and if you want to stand back and do nothing that is your choice. You just do not have the right to tell others that they lack faith if they do not think and act as you do.

My character has not been compromised Jon. It is a good thing that most Christians do not think as you do.

But since we have been over this ground more than once we will just have to agree to disagree.

You keep making false accusations over and over.

I am not saying do nothing. I am do more than a vote.

I can explain the compromised statement. This is my opinion.

The reason is I believe abortion as a choice and the normalization of homosexuality is evil. You obviously don't. But a Christian supporting a platform that views abortion as a choice and homosexuality as normal, IF those things are evil, means the Christian is compromised.

We are to avoid evil, not support evil.

 

[JonC]

@Silverhair

This is my main problem with your position:

A Christian could mentor women serking abortions, help them turn to better solutions, work with the youth, reach out to gay members of the community, feed the poor, work to house the homeless, share the gospel.....but if they do not support a political party you view them as doing nothing.

That is what I mean by lacking faith.

I, for example, will not support a political party that views abortion as a choice, or that normalizes homosexuality. I cannot support a political party that seeks to be an oligarchy (a minority of Christians ruling and oppressing a non-Christian majority).

If I did support such a party then I would be compromising my faith.

I don't care if a professing Christian votes. That's about all most do anyway.

I am, as I have said, expressing why I don't support a "world power". And, as I have said, each has to make up their own mind as we are accountable for our actions and voice - not one anothers.

 

[Silverhair]

You keep making false accusations over and over.

I am not saying do nothing. I am do more than a vote.

I can explain the compromised statement. This is my opinion.

The reason is I believe abortion as a choice and the normalization of homosexuality is evil. You obviously don't. But a Christian supporting a platform that views abortion as a choice and homosexuality as normal, IF those things are evil, means the Christian is compromised.

We are to avoid evil, not support evil.

There you go making false judgements again. Abortion and the homosexual lifestyle are blights on our world which I have spoken out against many times. Contrary to your view life is not as black and white as you seem to think it is. People of faith have had to use sinful powers to accomplish the will of God many times. You have heard of Esther, Daniel, Nehemiah to name a few. By your standard they had no faith as they do not resist the evil powers of their time.

You are wearing blinders so that you can only see what you want to see.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair

This is my main problem with your position:

A Christian could mentor women serking abortions, help them turn to better solutions, work with the youth, reach out to gay members of the community, feed the poor, work to house the homeless, share the gospel.....but if they do not support a political party you view them as doing nothing.

That is what I mean by lacking faith.

I, for example, will not support a political party that views abortion as a choice, or that normalizes homosexuality. I cannot support a political party that seeks to be an oligarchy (a minority of Christians ruling and oppressing a non-Christian majority).

If I did support such a party then I would be compromising my faith.

I don't care if a professing Christian votes. That's about all most do anyway.

I am, as I have said, expressing why I don't support a "world power". And, as I have said, each has to make up their own mind as we are accountable for our actions and voice - not one anothers.

To vote or not vote is your choice but you do not get to tell others they are compromised because they disagree with your view. By your errant standard all those Christians that used sinful governments to stamp out greater evils were compromised.

If they had all held your view then those evils would persist to this day. God has used good Christian men and women within sinful governments to bring about His goal.

I agree that we are all held responsible for what we do and for what we fail to do.

And your view is that if they do support a political party then they are compromised. What you fail to realize is that a Christian can mentor women seeking abortions, help them turn to better solutions, work with the youth, reach out to gay members of the community, feed the poor, work to house the homeless, share the gospel and still support the political party that they believe will help stem the tide of sin so as to oppose the one that would endorse it.

We live in a fallen world and God expects us to work within that fallen world to show them there is a better way even if that means doing so through a sinful power.

 

[JonC]

There you go making false judgements again. Abortion and the homosexual lifestyle are blights on our world which I have spoken out against many times. Contrary to your view life is not as black and white as you seem to think it is. People of faith have had to use sinful powers to accomplish the will of God many times. You have heard of Esther, Daniel, Nehemiah to name a few. By your standard they had no faith as they do not resist the evil powers of their time.

You are wearing blinders so that you can only see what you want to see.

I am not making judgments. I am stating facts.

Abortion and homosexuality are evils of this world.

Your post proves my point.

You say that you have spoken out against abortion and homosexuality.

You also say a Chriatian should support a platform that advocates abortion as a choice and the normalization of homosexuality.

By definition that is hypocrisy.

That is compromise.

And you obviously did not read your Bible when you offered those "examples".


You present Jesus and His disciples as doing evil by not partnering with a political sect to change the Roman government. You present Jesus as "doing nothing"



Do you really believe thar Jesus was wrong not to have fought against the ungodliness of the Roman government?

Do you really believe that Jesus was doing evil not to fight against the social issues (like economic plans, government oppression, abortion, homosexuality, taxation policies, assimilation of immigrants, etc)?