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The Son of God is God the Son?
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
DHK,
We are not talking about Jews here. We are talking about Messianic Christians. They accept the NT revelations. They accept that Jesus is the fulfillment of the OT Messianic prophecies.
Whether or not they eat pork has nothing to do with the fact that they have chosen to accept Jesus as the Christ.
Peters vision didn't have anything to do with dietary laws, it had to do with witnessing to Gentiles. Read the context. The sheet came down 3 times. Then 3 people came up to him, that BEFORE God had shown him this vision, he would have considered unclean, and would not have talked to them.
God Bless,
Kelly
We are not talking about Jews here. We are talking about Messianic Christians. They accept the NT revelations. They accept that Jesus is the fulfillment of the OT Messianic prophecies.
Whether or not they eat pork has nothing to do with the fact that they have chosen to accept Jesus as the Christ.
Peters vision didn't have anything to do with dietary laws, it had to do with witnessing to Gentiles. Read the context. The sheet came down 3 times. Then 3 people came up to him, that BEFORE God had shown him this vision, he would have considered unclean, and would not have talked to them.
God Bless,
Kelly
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Originally posted by neal4christ:
[QB]John 1
There can only be ONE God. It is IMPOSSIBLE for their to be two, because God cannot lie, and He said there is NTHER GOD, and that after Him there would never be another. SO, in order for there to be ONE God, and John 1 to be true, then it HAS TO be an account of the moment when Christ proceeded forth from God! If John 1 is true, and it is NOT interpreted the way that I have interpreted it (based on the whole of scripture), then you have two Gods. The trinity is what is impossible.
Just because something is written in scripture doesn't mean it is true! They also said that Jesus had a demon and was a Samaritan! Who are you going to believe? I'm going to believe Jesus, and He corrected them, and told them that He was NOT saying He was God, but that He was the SON of God. I didn't twist anything, Neal, I just read it. Jesus told them who He was. It was THEIR judgment that He was making Himself equal to God. What does the BIBLE say about MANS judgments?
I beg to differ. There are at least 400 ifs, ands or buts! Use that wing ding software of yours and look up the phrase 'Spirit of God'. Then look up 'God the Holy Spirit'. Then we'll talk.
The only trouble I am running into is caused by the closed minded, tradition absorbed people who paruse this board! All of my family members, and friends have LOVINGLY accepted my change of beliefs, and several of them have joined me.
How you figure, Neal? The Bible says that God gave Jesus everything that He has. All the power He has, is from God. EVERYTHING He has, is from God.
I think it's a little early to say that! We've only just begun. The jury hasn't even been called in yet!
I disagree. Why do you believe in the trinity? Because it makes SO much sense? My beliefs make sense. They are based on Biblical study, reason, and logic. God didn't give us logic and reason so that we could depend on a group of men that died nearly 1700 years ago for our doctrines! PROVE to yourselves whether the things that they teach are of God, or not. Bereans.
I appreciate your admiration Neal, really I do, but your fear saddens me. I spent several months pouring my heart and soul into discovering the truth. I did it on my knees and at the Word. If you honestly think that the conclusion I have arrived at is from any other source than God, then perhaps I should suggest that you stop praying for guidance, as I know you do, and that you stop studying for yourself.
Where God leads an open heart is usually the road that is less travelled by. Think of all the great men and women that have lived over the past 2 millenia. Those who go where God leads them, are not only noticed, but they are usually hated by many, loved by a few, and live lives that please God.
This is my daily prayer, that I would do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with my God.
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
-Kelly
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
I don't want a funeral. I want my family to have a party.
I'm going to be creamated if I die before Jesus comes back.
So, bake a cake, sing lots of songs on the piano, and remember, 'I will meet you in the morning'.
quote:
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How can He 'be' God and at some point cease to 'be' God? That is impossible! Either He was God or He was not!
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That is an absolutely correct and logical assessment. Either Christ is God or He is not. The Bible teaches that Christ, the Son of God is God - but NOT the "only true God" (John 17:3). So, does this then make for two Gods? No! Because there is only ONE self-existent Almighty Deity and that is God the Father. The Father and the Son are equal in terms of their quality of life - John 5:26. And notice that in John 5:26 it is God the Father that GAVE His quality of life to His Son. They are not equal in terms of TIME. The Father existed before the Son and had no beginning. The Son of God was begotten by the Father and had a beginning. That is the essential difference between the two. If there were two divine beings, both of the same age and without beginning THEN you would have TWO Gods - TWO Almighty Gods, TWO co-eternal Supreme Rulers of the universe. But trinitarianism goes a step further and maintains that there are THREE divine beings or individual deities, all of the same age, all without beginning, all Almighty Gods and all Supreme Rulers of the universe and without one scintilla of Biblical verbiage to back it up! This, friends is NOT Biblical. There are NOT two gods. Nor are there three gods. The Bible makes it oh so plain and it really is mind-boggling how so many sincere Christians pooh-pooh what 1 Corinthians 8:6 states.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Just where in the above verse is the Father and the Son defined as composing the one God??? Let alone a trinity of three gods??? Its very clear that Paul believed that the one God was the Father exclusively. Its very clear that Paul believed that the "one Lord Jesus Christ" is NOT part of the one God that He identified the Father as. So, where, oh where does the Bible ever define God as a Trinity? And where, oh where, does the Bible ever identify Jesus as "God the Son" and or part of the one God???
The word "God" simply means "divinity", or "divine one". There is no doubt that Christ is a divine being. He could be NO LESS as He is the only begotten Son of the one and only true LORD God Almighty! Therefore, myself, as a non-trinitarian, fully maintains the complete divinity of Jesus Christ, God's Son as do the trinitarians. The problem that I've noticed with how the trinitarian renders their judgement is that they equate the divinity of Christ with Him being a part of a Trinity and they consign those who deny the Trinity doctrine as denying the divinity of Christ and therefore not an authentic Christian. This is faulty logic based upon a biggoted form of ecclesiastical arrogance which has absolutely NO basis in Scripture which SHOULD BE the sole and final authority for faith and doctrine. To maintain that a person CANNOT be a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ because he/she denies the doctrine of the Trinity constitutes the epitome of religious hypocritcal and judgemental arrogance. Remember, a man or a woman either stands or falls before the righteous judgement of His divine Master(Romans 14:4). To attempt to judge otherwise is a usurpation of the place and office of God as each man's individual judge! To maintain that a person who denies the Trinity also denies the divinity of Christ is warped human logic devoid of revelation- for the Bible does NOT maintain a Trinity but does maintain the divinity of Christ.
So, either Christ is God or He is not. According to the Bible, He is God - by inheritance as being the Son of the "only true God". (John 17:3, Hebrews 1:4)
God Bless
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can He 'be' God and at some point cease to 'be' God? That is impossible! Either He was God or He was not!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is an absolutely correct and logical assessment. Either Christ is God or He is not. The Bible teaches that Christ, the Son of God is God - but NOT the "only true God" (John 17:3). So, does this then make for two Gods? No! Because there is only ONE self-existent Almighty Deity and that is God the Father. The Father and the Son are equal in terms of their quality of life - John 5:26. And notice that in John 5:26 it is God the Father that GAVE His quality of life to His Son. They are not equal in terms of TIME. The Father existed before the Son and had no beginning. The Son of God was begotten by the Father and had a beginning. That is the essential difference between the two. If there were two divine beings, both of the same age and without beginning THEN you would have TWO Gods - TWO Almighty Gods, TWO co-eternal Supreme Rulers of the universe. But trinitarianism goes a step further and maintains that there are THREE divine beings or individual deities, all of the same age, all without beginning, all Almighty Gods and all Supreme Rulers of the universe and without one scintilla of Biblical verbiage to back it up! This, friends is NOT Biblical. There are NOT two gods. Nor are there three gods. The Bible makes it oh so plain and it really is mind-boggling how so many sincere Christians pooh-pooh what 1 Corinthians 8:6 states.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Just where in the above verse is the Father and the Son defined as composing the one God??? Let alone a trinity of three gods??? Its very clear that Paul believed that the one God was the Father exclusively. Its very clear that Paul believed that the "one Lord Jesus Christ" is NOT part of the one God that He identified the Father as. So, where, oh where does the Bible ever define God as a Trinity? And where, oh where, does the Bible ever identify Jesus as "God the Son" and or part of the one God???
The word "God" simply means "divinity", or "divine one". There is no doubt that Christ is a divine being. He could be NO LESS as He is the only begotten Son of the one and only true LORD God Almighty! Therefore, myself, as a non-trinitarian, fully maintains the complete divinity of Jesus Christ, God's Son as do the trinitarians. The problem that I've noticed with how the trinitarian renders their judgement is that they equate the divinity of Christ with Him being a part of a Trinity and they consign those who deny the Trinity doctrine as denying the divinity of Christ and therefore not an authentic Christian. This is faulty logic based upon a biggoted form of ecclesiastical arrogance which has absolutely NO basis in Scripture which SHOULD BE the sole and final authority for faith and doctrine. To maintain that a person CANNOT be a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ because he/she denies the doctrine of the Trinity constitutes the epitome of religious hypocritcal and judgemental arrogance. Remember, a man or a woman either stands or falls before the righteous judgement of His divine Master(Romans 14:4). To attempt to judge otherwise is a usurpation of the place and office of God as each man's individual judge! To maintain that a person who denies the Trinity also denies the divinity of Christ is warped human logic devoid of revelation- for the Bible does NOT maintain a Trinity but does maintain the divinity of Christ.
So, either Christ is God or He is not. According to the Bible, He is God - by inheritance as being the Son of the "only true God". (John 17:3, Hebrews 1:4)
God Bless
Friends,
Let's just be thankful that our salvation is not subject to our understanding of
the eternal mysteries of who and what God consists of. We are not even asked
to make a determination. We don't have to ''get it right'' and then bring our astute
wisdom and holiness unto God and expect entry into heaven based on our
accomplishments to date.
"Just As I am Without One Plea, but That thy Blood Was Shed for Me"
A Literal "Lord Save Me" type of appeal to our Maker brings into our realm the
unseen power of the Holy Spirit that chose us before we chose Him and it changes
lives and gives unto us His Spirit that Jesus so remarkably displayed. Jesus said
"I will not leave you; I will come unto you". It is not wrong to think that the Holy
Spirit is Jesus who promised his own indwelling. We can also relate to it as God's
Spirit.
Isaiah 43:11
I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
Isaiah 45:15
Verily thou [art] a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Our Saviour is God; Jesus is our Saviour, Jesus IS the Holy Spirit/Comforter.
Jesus is God's Son, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father", "The Father
and I are one". "I go unto my Father". He was in the world and the world was made
by Him and the world knew Him not.
Me Understand ?
No
Me Accept ?
Yes
Let's just be thankful that our salvation is not subject to our understanding of
the eternal mysteries of who and what God consists of. We are not even asked
to make a determination. We don't have to ''get it right'' and then bring our astute
wisdom and holiness unto God and expect entry into heaven based on our
accomplishments to date.
"Just As I am Without One Plea, but That thy Blood Was Shed for Me"
A Literal "Lord Save Me" type of appeal to our Maker brings into our realm the
unseen power of the Holy Spirit that chose us before we chose Him and it changes
lives and gives unto us His Spirit that Jesus so remarkably displayed. Jesus said
"I will not leave you; I will come unto you". It is not wrong to think that the Holy
Spirit is Jesus who promised his own indwelling. We can also relate to it as God's
Spirit.
Isaiah 43:11
I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
Isaiah 45:15
Verily thou [art] a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Our Saviour is God; Jesus is our Saviour, Jesus IS the Holy Spirit/Comforter.
Jesus is God's Son, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father", "The Father
and I are one". "I go unto my Father". He was in the world and the world was made
by Him and the world knew Him not.
Me Understand ?
No
Me Accept ?
Yes
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi Ricky,
You wrote, "I'm all "Sola Scriptura"."
Show me where in Scripture it says that only Scripture is authoritative.
I see Scripture pointing to men as authoritative (esp. Matthew 16:16-19). Are you familiar with what "binding and loosing" mean in a Jewish context?
You wrote, "The Word of God is the sole authority that I go by."
Moi aussi, mon ami.
The New Testament speaks of Tradition as conveying the Word of God, so you should adhere to Tradition in addition to Scripture, if you want to be entirely Biblical.
You wrote, "I'm all "Sola Scriptura"."
Show me where in Scripture it says that only Scripture is authoritative.
I see Scripture pointing to men as authoritative (esp. Matthew 16:16-19). Are you familiar with what "binding and loosing" mean in a Jewish context?
You wrote, "The Word of God is the sole authority that I go by."
Moi aussi, mon ami.
The New Testament speaks of Tradition as conveying the Word of God, so you should adhere to Tradition in addition to Scripture, if you want to be entirely Biblical.
Is this plagiarism from the Muslim Koran. It sounds like it. It is the same view they hold, or accuse Christians of holding just like you accuse Christians of holding. Are you a Muslim?
I ask because it certainly isn't orthodox Christianity that has been believed on from the time of the Apostles, but just from very recent times. That puts it in the realm of the belief of a cult. It is also a false accusation that trintitarians believe in three gods) against true Biblical Christianity. That is not what trinitarians believe.
DHK
Show me where in Scripture it says that only Scripture is authoritative.
I guess I just used the Pre-RCC method of obtaining salvation.
Went right to the Maker Himself and confessed my belief in and dependence
upon the shed blood of His Son who died for me; got interested in reading
the bible and sharing the good news of the gospel.
Hadn't even given Catholicism, history, word meaning, foreign language, doctrine,
Ignatius, Augustine, Mary, Curly, Larry or Moe any consideration at the time.
It was Jis' Jesus and Me and it worked for the multi-thousands before anyone
started a church...why wouldn't it work today ?
Praise the Lord for the Simple Gospel.
"Whosoever believes in Me" (Jesus)
I guess I just used the Pre-RCC method of obtaining salvation.
Went right to the Maker Himself and confessed my belief in and dependence
upon the shed blood of His Son who died for me; got interested in reading
the bible and sharing the good news of the gospel.
Hadn't even given Catholicism, history, word meaning, foreign language, doctrine,
Ignatius, Augustine, Mary, Curly, Larry or Moe any consideration at the time.
It was Jis' Jesus and Me and it worked for the multi-thousands before anyone
started a church...why wouldn't it work today ?
Praise the Lord for the Simple Gospel.
"Whosoever believes in Me" (Jesus)
You don't accept the Scripture or Scriptural examples when we do, so what is the use.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Isa.8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
neal4christ
New Member
That's right, Jesus was just yanking our chain in John 14.
The Holy Spirit is not really separate from the Father and Jesus, He just was being a little deceptive when He relayed this info. Yeah, right.What are you saying? I am not following you here.
And as for Jesus being God at one point and then ceasing is impossible. The trinity is not three gods, no matter how much you try to make yourself believe that. You should really look into what being one means as used in John 10:30. I know, you will say it is spirit. But that does not do all the evidence justice.
3AM, I have not been harsh to you. If what you call love is just accpeting what people believe and patting them on the back even if it is wrong, then yes, my post is not loving. But that is not love. I would engage the rest of your post but you clearly have you mind made up. Believe that if you will. There is too much evidence to the contrary for me to believe your position. And by the way, I didn't arrive at the Trinity belief by tradition or blind accpetance. I used to think like you did. But the evidence is too much for me to believe as you do.
If you really want to be humble and loving you should learn how to post. Calling things "wing ding" and other such things only incite anger and harsh feelings. As it stands, even if you had the truth, you would turn folks off with the way you present it.
May the Lord Jesus Christ Pour Out His Grace On You,
Neal
[ July 10, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi DHK,
Neither of those passages say that "only Scripture is authoritative", which is what I asked you to "show me in Scripture".
I agree that Scripture is authoritative, no doubt; you're only confirming Catholic doctrine when you show this to be the case.
Neither of those passages say that "only Scripture is authoritative", which is what I asked you to "show me in Scripture".
I agree that Scripture is authoritative, no doubt; you're only confirming Catholic doctrine when you show this to be the case.
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Carson,
The 'traditions' that were passed to the Church by the Apostles are all written down in the NT.
The traditions that they were being given were given by word of mouth because they did not have the written Word yet.
The traditions that YOU hold to are the traditions of man and CONDEMNED by the Bible.
If tradition or dogma or doctrine is given by man and it contradicts the Word of God, it should be thrown out. <----PERIOD
God Bless,
Kelly
The 'traditions' that were passed to the Church by the Apostles are all written down in the NT.
The traditions that they were being given were given by word of mouth because they did not have the written Word yet.
The traditions that YOU hold to are the traditions of man and CONDEMNED by the Bible.
If tradition or dogma or doctrine is given by man and it contradicts the Word of God, it should be thrown out. <----PERIOD
God Bless,
Kelly
neal4christ
New Member
Funny, the RCC likes to claim all kinds of things as its 'own'.
God Bless,
Neal
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Neal,
The phrase 'Wing ding software' was in no way inflamatory. I was trying to be funny.
I apologize if you took it the wrong way.
I was talking about the software that you have that I WANT!
God Bless,
Kelly
The phrase 'Wing ding software' was in no way inflamatory. I was trying to be funny.
I apologize if you took it the wrong way.
I was talking about the software that you have that I WANT!
God Bless,
Kelly
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Neal,
About John 14.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
The Father didn't send a third person of a trinity, He sent the Spirit of Jesus. The Spirit of Truth, is the Spirit of Jesus! Who is the 'way the TRUTH and the life'? Jesus!
It is SO plain that it is Jesus who dwells in us, look at verse 18, He even SAID that it was going to be Himself!
God Bless,
Kelly
About John 14.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
The Father didn't send a third person of a trinity, He sent the Spirit of Jesus. The Spirit of Truth, is the Spirit of Jesus! Who is the 'way the TRUTH and the life'? Jesus!
It is SO plain that it is Jesus who dwells in us, look at verse 18, He even SAID that it was going to be Himself!
God Bless,
Kelly
neal4christ
New Member
This is what points to the trinity. It is clear the HS is separate from Christ, but yet is the same as Him. How can this be? The trinity is one ontologically.
If it is the Spirit of Jesus as you understand it, then would there just be a dead corpse of Jesus in heaven if His spirit is gone? But He is actively there mediating on our behalf. How can He be everywhere at one time if He is not God?
It is interesting that you highlight another. This word means "another of the same qualitative kind." It means a differnt one numerically, but in essence the same. How can that be?
God Bless You Kelly,
Neal
neal4christ
New Member
Apology accepted. I apologize that I took it the wrong way. I have been under a lot of stress with school lately, so my humor is gone right now.
In Christ,
Neal
That's one thing that convinced me that Jesus is God is the Holy Spirit.
Quote:
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may
abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him
not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Imagine that..Jesus said "ANOTHER comforter", then he said "but ye know him
for he dwelleth with you (referring to himself). He even referred to himself as "He".
Another strange thing. He said the Holy spirit would come and dwell with 'you'
forever and then turned around and said "I will come to you".
That lines up "He was in the world and He made the world and the world
knew Him not"..and this one:
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
As with some people who don't even believe there was a Jesus or his
mission, I tell them to pretend to believe it for awhile then and see what
happens. Experiment with God...not as a fake, but give God a chance at
least.
Keep up the humor, Kelly. You're a real wing-dinger .
Quote:
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may
abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him
not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Imagine that..Jesus said "ANOTHER comforter", then he said "but ye know him
for he dwelleth with you (referring to himself). He even referred to himself as "He".
Another strange thing. He said the Holy spirit would come and dwell with 'you'
forever and then turned around and said "I will come to you".
That lines up "He was in the world and He made the world and the world
knew Him not"..and this one:
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
As with some people who don't even believe there was a Jesus or his
mission, I tell them to pretend to believe it for awhile then and see what
happens. Experiment with God...not as a fake, but give God a chance at
least.
Keep up the humor, Kelly. You're a real wing-dinger .
Greetings Carson,
You stated:
Show me where in Scripture it says that only Scripture is authoritative.
Ricky replies: Isaiah 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Any doctrine that goes contrary to God's law or His testimony is not to be accepted by God's children - there's NO LIGHT in it.
You also stated:
The New Testament speaks of Tradition as conveying the Word of God, so you should adhere to Tradition in addition to Scripture, if you want to be entirely Biblical.
You make two very interesting points here, brother. Number one, you say that the NT speaks of tradition as conveying the Word of God. Yes, Paul did tell the Thessalonians to hold the traditions that they were taught. And Paul used the Scriptures as his guide in teaching. And furthermore, he commends the Bereans for consulting the Scriptures to verify that what he taught was truth. Number two, you pointed me to the Scriptures to substantiate the validity of tradition in an attempt to prove that the Scriptures are NOT the final authority - but in so doing, you proved my point that the Scriptures are the final authority.
God Bless
You stated:
Show me where in Scripture it says that only Scripture is authoritative.
Ricky replies: Isaiah 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Any doctrine that goes contrary to God's law or His testimony is not to be accepted by God's children - there's NO LIGHT in it.
You also stated:
The New Testament speaks of Tradition as conveying the Word of God, so you should adhere to Tradition in addition to Scripture, if you want to be entirely Biblical.
You make two very interesting points here, brother. Number one, you say that the NT speaks of tradition as conveying the Word of God. Yes, Paul did tell the Thessalonians to hold the traditions that they were taught. And Paul used the Scriptures as his guide in teaching. And furthermore, he commends the Bereans for consulting the Scriptures to verify that what he taught was truth. Number two, you pointed me to the Scriptures to substantiate the validity of tradition in an attempt to prove that the Scriptures are NOT the final authority - but in so doing, you proved my point that the Scriptures are the final authority.
God Bless