The Son of God is God the Son?

[Kathryn]

Kelly, you say:

The title "Lord God the Pope" is found within a gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, title 14, chapter 4

It is idolatry plain and simple.

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/forgeries/zenzelinus.html
The Truth about the title "Lord God the Pope"


God Bless

 

[thessalonian]

Kelly,

You simply don't know your Bible very well for you do not know how to distinguish worship from honor. You only know the proof text verses you local SDA Church has taught you against Catholiicsm. Issac said to Jacob on Issac's death bed:

Genesis 27:29
May peoples serve you,
And nations bow down to you;
Be master of your brothers,
And may your mother's sons bow down to you.
Cursed be those who curse you,
And blessed be those who bless you."

This is God's words as spoken through Issac. Not mine. Bowing down before is not neccessarily worship but sometimes in scriptrues indicates high honor. It is only worship if the person bowing down in their heart believs the person they are bowing before is God. I know of no Catholic who believes the pope is God. I could care less what your anti-catholic websites say. They lie. There are other examples such as in Josh 7 where the Israelites BOW DOWN and pray before the Ark of the Covenant. Now you, if this episode were to happen today would be taken pictures of it all and bashing them all over the net. But God knows the heart no matter how much you claim too. Gee sounds like you have an idolatrous streak in you, claiming the power of God to know men's hearts.

Blessings.

 

[Brother Adam]

This board is so angry...

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
Kelly,

You simply don't know your Bible very well for you do not know how to distinguish worship from honor. You only know the proof text verses you local SDA Church has taught you against Catholiicsm. Issac said to Jacob on Issac's death bed:

Genesis 27:29
May peoples serve you,
And nations bow down to you;
Be master of your brothers,
And may your mother's sons bow down to you.
Cursed be those who curse you,
And blessed be those who bless you."

This is God's words as spoken through Issac. Not mine. Bowing down before is not neccessarily worship but sometimes in scriptrues indicates high honor. It is only worship if the person bowing down in their heart believs the person they are bowing before is God. I know of no Catholic who believes the pope is God. I could care less what your anti-catholic websites say. They lie.

It is impossible that every website that is speaking out against the Catholic church is lying. There has to be some truth to it. Do you not agree that people are worshipping statues? Do you not think that bowing down, and kissing the foot of a statue is worshipping it? The Commandment didn't say, you could do it as long as you aren't thinking it is god in your heart! It said DON'T DO IT!

Leviticus 26:1, "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

It didn't just say not to bow down, it said don't even MAKE ONE to bow down to!

There are other examples such as in Josh 7 where the Israelites BOW DOWN and pray before the Ark of the Covenant.

You do know that the Shekinah Glory hovered over the Ark of the Covenant, right? That was the literal prescence of God! For them to bow in worship to it, was not worshipping just a box, there was literally something else there. GOD.

Now you, if this episode were to happen today would be taken pictures of it all and bashing them all over the net.

Only Satanists and pagans would be! If God's prescence was to hover over, say, the vatican, all the nations would WONDER.

But God knows the heart no matter how much you claim too. Gee sounds like you have an idolatrous streak in you, claiming the power of God to know men's hearts.

Who are you talking about? Seriously! I have made no claims that I know the intents of another mans heart! The Bible said you will know a tree by it's FRUIT. If you are worshipping IDOLS, and THAT is what that is, then I can CLEARLY see that your fruit is that of disobedience. That isn't idolatry to see that someone is sinning and say 'hey, that's sin'. That's just observation!

Why are you accusing me of knowing another mans heart, when I have not even once made the claim that I know another mans heart?

Herein lies the problem: the Bible says not to do something, tradition says that you can, and you go with tradition. That tradition also tells you that anyone who shows opposition to your traditions are to be hated and lashed out at.

Chill.

If you aren't worshipping idols, why are you so defensive?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
This board is so angry...

Don't confuse dogmatism and forthrightness with anger!

 

[Kathryn]

Kelly:

It is impossible that every website that is speaking out against the Catholic church is lying.

Most are not lying. Most are from people like you repeating and copy and pasting from the same sources and websites without checking the original source, or doing your own research to check it out.....if it is anti-Catholic it has got to be true. When the truth is pointed out, you just pick a different site and throw out something else you know nothing about, as the "truth about the Catholic Church".

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Kathryn,

Isn't that what you just did?

It goes both ways! We find stuff, and you put a spin on it, by quoting another site, so we go to another site to try to vindicate our original statements.

And round and round we go.

It isn't just US!

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[3AngelsMom]

Kathryn,

I read through that site you posted, and can willingly accept the possibility that my source is incorrect, BUT, what about all of these?

"The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man (...) he is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power." -Lucius Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, 'Papa II', pp.25-29

"The supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires (...) complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself." -Leo VIII, «On the Chief Duties of Christians as Citizens», Encyclical letter, 1890

"God separates those whom the Roman Pontiff, who exercises the functions, not of mere man, but of the true God (...) dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority." -Decretals of Gregory IX», Book 1, Chapter 7.3

"Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions (infernorum)." -Lucius Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, 'Papa II', p.26)

"Innocent III has written: "Indeed, it is not top much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods." -The dignity of the priesthood by Liguori p, 36

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." Catholic National July 1895.

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" ...Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894,

"For thou art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman, finally thou art another God on earth." Labbe and Cossart's "History of the Councils." Vol. XIV, col. 109

The title "Lord God the Pope" is found within a gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, title 14, chapter 4,

In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (Our Lord God the Pope) can be found in column 153. In a Paris edition, they are found in column 140.

Roman Catholic Canon Law stipulates through Pope Innocent III that the Roman pontiff is "the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God;" and in a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, who is "very God and very man." Decretales Domini Gregorii translatione Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Devretales, col. 205

"The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land... He is the vicegerent (replacement) of Christ, who is not only a Priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords." - La Civilia Cattolica, March 18, 1871, quoted in Leonard Woosely Bacaon, An inside view of the Vatican Council (American Tract Society ed.), p.229, n.

The Bull Unam Sanctam... Issued by POPE BONIFACE VIII reads as follows: "The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one. We declare, assert, define and pronounce: to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature necessary for salvation that which was spoken of Christ 'thou has subdued all things under his feet' may well seem verified in me... I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do."

"Christ entrusted His office to the chief pontiff;... but all power in heaven and in earth has been given to Christ;... therefore the chief pontiff, who is His vicar, will have this power." Corpus Juris chap. 1 column 29, translated from a gloss on the words Porro Subesse Romano Pontiff

"The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land . . . He is the vicegerent of Christ, and is not only a priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords"--La Civilta Cattolica, March 18, 1871.

"All the faithful must believe that the Holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff [the Pope] possesses the primacy over the whole world, and the Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and is true vicar of Christ, and heed of the whole church, and father and teacher of all Christians; and that full power was given to him in blessed Peter to rule, feed, and govern the universal Church by Jesus Christ our Lord."--First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ, "Eternal Pastor," published in the fourth session of the Vatican Council, 1870, chap. 3, in Philip Schaff, Creeds of Christendom. vol. 2, p. 262.

“The Pope’s authority is unlimited, incalculable; it can strike, as Innocent III says, wherever sin is; it can punish every one; it allows no appeal and is itself Sovereign Caprice; for the Pope carries, according to the expression of Boniface VIII, all rights in the Shrine of his breast. As he has now become infallible, he can by the use of the little word, “orbi,” (which means that he turns himself round to the whole Church) make every rule, every doctrine, every demand, into a certain and incontestable article of Faith. No right can stand against him, no personal or corporate liberty; or as the [Roman Catholic] Canonists put it—“The tribunal of God and of the pope is one and the same.” -Ignaz von Dollinger, “A Letter Addressed to the Archbishop of Munich” 1871; as quoted in MacDougall, The Acton Newman Relations (Fordham University Press) pp. 119,120.

"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958).

"This is our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate." (Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 653).

"Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors." (Pope Pius XI, Encyclical, Mortalium animos, January 6, 1928, The Papal Encyclicals, Claudia Carlen, I.H.M., McGrath Publishing Co., 1981, pp. 317, 318).

"We define that the Holy Apostolic See (the Vatican) and the Roman Pontiff hold the primacy over the whole world."-A Decree of the Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart, "The Most Holy Councils," col. 1167.

"Of what sublime dignity is the office of the Christian priest who is thus privileged to act as the ambassador and the vicegerent of Christ on earth! He continues the essential ministry of Christ; he teaches the faithful with the authority of Christ, he pardons the penitent sinner with the power of Christ, he offers up again the same sacrifice of adoration and atonement which Christ offered on Calvary. No wonder that the name which spiritual writers are especially found of applying to the priest is that of 'alter Christus.' For the priest is and should be another Christ" (Faith of Millions, John O'Brien, Ph.D., LL.D., 268-269, "nihil obstat" by Rev. T. E. Dillon-Censor Librorum and "imprimatur" by John Francis Noll, D.D. -Bishop of Fort Wayne).

"But as for you and your companions, you certainly sin, if, having heard the decrees of the Apostolic See, and of the universal Church, and the same is confirmed by Holy Writ, you refuse to follow them; for, though your fathers were holy, do you think that their small number, in a corner of the remotest island, is to be preferred before the universal Church of Christ throughout the world? And if that Columba of yours (and, I may say, ours also, if he was Christ's servant), was a holy man and powerful in miracles, yet could he be preferred before the most blessed prince of the Apostles to whom Our Lord said 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and to thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven'?" When Wilfrid had spoken thus, the king said, "Is it true Colman, that these words were spoken to Peter by Our Lord?" He answered, "It is true, O king!" Then says he, "Can you show any such power given to your Columba?" Colman answered, "None." Then added the king, "Do you both agree that these words were principally directed to Peter, and that the keys of heaven were given to him by Our Lord?" They both answered. "We do." Then the king concluded, "And I also say unto you, that he is the door-keeper, whom I will not contradict, but will, as far as I know and am able, in all things obey his decrees, lest, when I come to the gates of the kingdom of heaven, there should be none to open them, he being my adversary who is proved to have the keys." (St. Bede, Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation, quoted in Readings from Church History, Volume I, edited by Fr. Colman Barry, O.S.B., The Newman Press, Westminster, MD, 1966, p. 273.)

Surely all of these aren't forgeries?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Major B]

Protestants, as well as Baptists and other Free Church people have popes too, they are just local and petty, and most of the time they are not the pastor!

In an attempt to return this thread to its original subject, I submit the following.

The Eternal, Witnessed, Manifested, Proclaimed Word
1 John 1:1-4

Introductory Thoughts

· 1 John is a book about passing tests. The tests in 1 John include the following tests

2:3 obedience
2:15 allegiance
3:9-10 holiness
4:1-3 doctrine
4:7-11 love

· 1 John is a book about settled knowledge è 5:13-20 gives us a list of things we know, and the construction of the Greek in that passage shows that John is speaking of an absolute and settled knowledge, as we shall see when we get there.

· 1 John, written by the aged apostle to confront and challenge believers and protect against anti-Christian cults. The warnings are found throughout the book, some subtle, some very direct.

· The preface =è 1:1-4

Ø The central thought of the preface is found in the main verb è we declare, 1:3 present tense, which has the sense of continuity—we are declaring and continue to declare.

Ø What is the apostle declaring?

1. The Apostle is declaring that Jesus Christ is The Eternal Word – 1:1a, 1:2b—“…"That which was from the beginning,… concerning the Word of life;…2… that eternal life which was with the Father…”

a. Language

(1) The verb is in the imperfect tense—refers to continuous existence in a time before the time indicated
(2) But the time indicated is “from the beginning,”
(3) This, of course, means that the subject of this sentence is an eternal person or thing, with continuous existence before the beginning.

b. The Beginning: “That which was from the beginning…”

“…in the beginning, was the Word…” John 1:1
Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
Rev 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

(1) Christ has always been
(2) He had no beginning, there was never a time or any space before time when Christ was not.
(3) He was not made, created, or generated—He always was and always shall be.

c. There are two very significant words here: “beginning” and “was.” In the beginning WAS the Word…He already was! “Was” is in the imperfect tense in the original, in this tense, the verb indicates continual existence in the past, NOT AN ORIGIN, BUT A CONTINUAL PAST!

(1) What was before the beginning? Eternal glory, and nothing else! John 17:5, 24
(2) Contrast “was” in a different tense—
(a) John came into being (egeneto)—John 1:6
(b) The Word became flesh (egeneto)—Jesus always was, but He took on our flesh
(c) John 8:58—Abraham came into being (genesqai) but I AM—(eimi, present tense), shows continuous existence

d. Jesus Christ is an Eternal Being—no beginning, no end. He is Eternal—“…in the beginning, the Word already was….” Jn 1:1, Micah 5:2, Rev 22:13

e. In the beginning, the Word already was—He did not come to be in the beginning, He did not begin at the beginning, He was already.

f. Exo 3:14-15 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."

g. Thus it makes more sense when we read later that Jesus calls Himself the I AM, for He is self-existent, He had no beginning, He has no end.

h. He is a Separate Person From the Father, Yet One With Him. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God..” 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

(1) There are in our day heretics who try to make Christ and the Father to be the same person with a different mask—but Christ and His Father are separate persons.
(2) He was “face to face with” God
(3) He was “with God,” that was His natural state.

i. Jesus Christ Is God—John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

(1) He is not “a” God, He is The God— John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
(2) He is not “god in the sense that all men are divine”—He is God.
(3) He is not “a man in whom God came to dwell”—He is God.
(4) He is not “the son of God only”—He is God
(5) He is not a man who became God—He IS God
(6) Christ is the eternal God, very God of very God, one with the Father and Spirit, yet distinct in His personality.
(7) If you examine the pages of scripture, you will find:

(a) He is called God.
(b) He is called God by men—( John 20:28)
(c) He is called God by the Father—Heb 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
(d) He accepts worship from men and angels
(e) He does the works of God
(i) Creation—John 1:3
(ii) Preservation of the universe—Col 1:17
(iii) The forgiveness of sins –Mat 9:2
(iv) The giving of eternal life –John 5:24
(v) He demonstrated His power over nature, over disease, demon powers, even over death—Matt. chapter 8
(vi) He possesses divine attributes.
(i) Self existence –John 8:58
(ii) Eternity (see above)
(iii) Omniscience –John 1:45-47
(iv) Omnipresence –Mat 18:18-20
(v) Immutability –Heb 13:8
(vi) Omnipotence –Mat 28:18

(vii) He claims to be Jehovah God—John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

2. The Eternal Word Comes Into History—“… which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled…2 the life was manifested, …”

a. The Words

(1) Heard—Perfect tense—this is settled in John’s mind. He heard Christ over a period of time, and the effect continues to the present.
(2) Seen with our own eyes—perfect tense—same effect as (1)
(3) Looked upon—different word from “seen”—the exact form as Jn 1:14, in aorist tense—the important thing here is that it happened.

(a) When John heard Him, that was one thing…
(b) When John saw Him with his own eyes, that was one thing…
(c) But when John really beheld Him in His glory—that was another thing altogether
(d) When did John behold Him thus?
(i) On the Mount of transfiguration (Mat 17)
(ii) On Calvary’s mountain
(iii) On the Mount of Olives
(iv) John did not just SEE Him, John BEHELD Him

(4) Handled with our own hands—Lk 24:39—also aorist—John did not just handle Him during His ministry, but John handled Him after His resurrection. The resurrection’s reality is no problem for John, He handled Him—John, with his own hands, handled Him.

b. The theological meaning—

(1) This is settled as far as John is concerned
(2) This is not talking about anything mystical. The absolute reality of the witnessed events and the witnessed Word is being stressed.
(3) The main point—God has entered history—the Son came.
(a) He lived for us
(b) He died for us
(c) He rose for us
(d) He ascended for us
(e) He intercedes for us
(f) He will return for us

3. The Eternal Word Declared—“…and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us; 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you…”

a. Declared what and Who He is
b. Declared what was witnessed
c. Declared the real message about the real God Man who was really seen, really heard, really handled
d. This is the apostolic Gospel, and so should we be declaring the Gospel—1 Cor 15:1-11

4. The Eternal Fellowship—“… that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ…”

a. Definition of Fellowship—Koinonia—Not just getting together to share fun and a meal, though that is certainly part of it--

Rom 15:26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution (Koinonia) for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.

1 Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship (Koinonia) of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Cor 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion (Koinonia) has light with darkness?

Gal 2:9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship (Koinonia) , that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

Eph 3:9 ........the fellowship (Koinonia) of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

Phil 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship (Koinonia) of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

b. Fellowship with us—

(1) The deeper koinonia, the fullness of koinonia, is when believers in Christ work together to fulfill the mission of a New Testament church by proclaiming Biblical Truth without compromise and loving people without reservation

(2) Koinonia occurs when believers follow Christ individually, and when the local church follows Christ corporately

(3) Koinonia occurs when the Glory of God is the supreme goal of the church individually and corporately
c. That—“...hina..” in order that—purpose clause

d. Verb “have” present tense, subjunctive—“…may keep on having fellowship…” (AT Robertson)

e. Fellowship—1 Pet 4:13—with meta, emphasizing mutual relationship (Acts 2:42) (AT Robertson)

f. Fellowship with the Father and the Son—John 17!

(1) Here we see the essence of salvation!
(2) The common view of salvation
(a) Salvation from the penalty of sin
(b) Salvation from Hell
(c) Salvation to Heaven
(3) The more mature view of salvation—all the above, plus
(a) Salvation from the power of sin
(b) Salvation to serve God
(c) Salvation to serve people
(4) The full view of salvation—all the above are just the side benefits! Salvation is about present, continuous, and everlasting fellowship with the Triune God!

(a) John 17:3—“should keep on knowing…” (AT Robertson)
(i) In the Greek, ginoskosin—experiential knowledge
(ii) The essence of eternal life is continual knowledge and fellowship with the One True God.

(b) John 10:27

g. The Trinitarian emphasis—see 2:22-23 and 4:1-3! If you do not believe who Jesus is, you will not be enjoying the fellowship.

 

[Kathryn]

Kelly, you say:

I read through that site you posted, and can willingly accept the possibility that my source is incorrect, BUT, what about all of these?

You are willing to accept that what you presented was incorrect, and you now want me to prove that every quote you post is a forgery. I never claimed them all to be forgeries. Take this one you cut and pasted with no research or effort on your part. This is not a forgery. This is part of the history of the British Isles. Why don’t you do a little research on your own and find out what this is all about. The history here discredits E.G. White and what she says about the history of the British Isles. Like I say, if you find dirt about a church, research it from credible sources from all angles and find out what it is about and put it in context. You would be surprised by what 7th century historian Bede in his Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation, that you cite here, records especially around the years 100 A.D. to 200A.D. You might even have to be willing to spend some time, go to a library, or buy a few books and read them, but it is worth it....don’t rely on others to do it for you.


"But as for you and your companions, you certainly sin, if, having heard the decrees of the Apostolic See, and of the universal Church, and the same is confirmed by Holy Writ, you refuse to follow them; for, though your fathers were holy, do you think that their small number, in a corner of the remotest island, is to be preferred before the universal Church of Christ throughout the world? And if that Columba of yours (and, I may say, ours also, if he was Christ's servant), was a holy man and powerful in miracles, yet could he be preferred before the most blessed prince of the Apostles to whom Our Lord said 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and to thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven'?" When Wilfrid had spoken thus, the king said, "Is it true Colman, that these words were spoken to Peter by Our Lord?" He answered, "It is true, O king!" Then says he, "Can you show any such power given to your Columba?" Colman answered, "None." Then added the king, "Do you both agree that these words were principally directed to Peter, and that the keys of heaven were given to him by Our Lord?" They both answered. "We do." Then the king concluded, "And I also say unto you, that he is the door-keeper, whom I will not contradict, but will, as far as I know and am able, in all things obey his decrees, lest, when I come to the gates of the kingdom of heaven, there should be none to open them, he being my adversary who is proved to have the keys." (St. Bede, Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation, quoted in Readings from Church History, Volume I, edited by Fr. Colman Barry, O.S.B., The Newman Press, Westminster, MD, 1966, p. 273.)


God Bless

P.S. You should do the same with the subject of the Waldensians. Read their history from their own credible sources. Here is one source that is credible and unbiased and recommended by the Waldensians themselves: "The Waldensian Dissent : Persecution and Survival, c.1170-c.1570"
Gabriel Audisio (Author), Claire Davison (Translator);

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
It is impossible that every website that is speaking out against the Catholic church is lying. There has to be some truth to it.

The same can be said about the SDA's Kelly. There are hundreds of sites that point out the errors of Seventh Day Adventism, and why they should be considered a cult. Don't you think you should at least agree with your own logic.
Try this well known site for starters.

http://www.carm.org/

DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Ricky_Lee
Now, as far as Ellen White is concerned. SDA's make a big boo-boo when they quote her for establishing what is and isn't true doctrine. This is why, notwithstanding the fact that they officially embraced the Trinity doctrine quite recently in 1980, are still thought of as cultish in mentality - because many SDA's, to their shame, instead of going to the Bible for and quoting the Bible to substantiate their beliefs, turn to Ellen White and use her as their source and sadly, as their authority. And what is further exacorbating to their condition is that they don't even understand Ellen White - let alone the Bible! Take the Trinity doctrine for example. SDA's believe that Ellen White was a closet Trinitarian who gradually injected Trinitarian teachings in her writings towards the end of her life. And they believe that precisely because of that which you quoted from her. Here are the facts:

1.)Ellen White never endorsed the Trinity.
....

The purpose of the list that I posted was to show "SDA statements" prior to 1914 that reject the semi-Arian view of God. (Not to prove the doctrine of the Trinity - just to show statements from the church pre-1914 that are clearly supportive of the trinitarian view and totally inconsisten with th semi-arian view).

If you check that list again - you will see that many of them (in fact most of them) are from Ellen White.

My purpose is not to "use Ellen White to prove the doctrine" but to show published statements prior to 1914 that are "not possible" for a semi-arian group to promote "Third Person of the Godhead" etc are examples of phrases that Arian and semi-arian groups never use.

Look at the list again - the published statements are clearly NOT possibe for semi-arians to "promote" as they are distinctives of the trinitarian "Triune" God view.

I am not arguing that you should use Ellen White as your "source of doctrine" (and neither does the SDA church argue that point) - just that the historic fact of these published statements prior to 1914 show that the position for the triune God was being published prior to 1914.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Try this well known site for starters.

http://www.carm.org/

Carm is one of the most dishonest boards I have ever visited and posted on - bar none Christian or non-Christian - you name it.

This Baptist board has set a very high standard of integrity and Christian practice so you "could" argue that Carm should not be expected to conform to such a high standard as the Baptist board.

However the "tactics" they employ there and the dishonest practices engaged in regularly by their board administrators is atrocious even for a non-Christian board let alone one that claims to be Christian.

I can hardly say "enough" to express the low standard which they set for message boards in general.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Try this well known site for starters.

http://www.carm.org/

Carm is one of the most dishonest boards I have ever visited and posted on - bar none Christian or non-Christian - you name it.
</font>[/QUOTE]I don't know much about their message boards. I have never been on it. But as far as I can see the information provided on the various religious groups is fairly accurate.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

DHK,

In case you haven't noticed, I don't spend a whole lot of time defending the SDA Church! My goal is to defend truth.

If the SDA is not in truth, I do not support it, but rather support the truth that they do have.

The Trinity is just one example.

The SDA current position is a trinity.

I disagree with that.

Therefore I do not support the SDA but rather support what is true.

I've never been to CARM, what church runs it?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:


In case you haven't noticed, I don't spend a whole lot of time defending the SDA Church! My goal is to defend truth.

Funny, Every SDA doctrine thrown out there, I see you defending it--including Ellen G. White.

The Trinity is just one example.

I believe Bob already pointed out that they did not always believe in the trinity. So what?

I've never been to CARM, what church runs it?

CARM isn't run by a church; it is run by one evangelical Christian, Matt Slick, who has a ministry in apologetics--defending the truth, and exposing error.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

This is from CARM

The items that are false are in bold.

"What does Seventh Day Adventism Teach?


Affirmations

The Bible is inspired and the word of God.
Trinitarian: The Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all one God in three persons.
Jesus is God and has always existed with the Father.
The Holy Spirit is a person.
Jesus' sacrifice was vicarious.
Salvation is by grace, not works.
Jesus rose from the dead physically in his glorified body.
Jesus ascended bodily into heaven.
Baptism is by immersion
The literal, visible return of Jesus.
Jesus will return to set up a millennial kingdom. They are Premillennial.
Literal six day creation, not long periods.


Denials

Denies the doctrine of predestination
Denies baptism by sprinkling
Denies infant baptism.
Denies the immortality of the soul.
Denies the eternality of hell fire.
Denies any use of alcohol (as a drink) or tobacco.


Aberrant

Our sins will ultimately be placed on Satan - The Great Controversy, p. 422, 485.
Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
Worship must be done on Saturday (the Sabbath).
On October 22, 1844 Jesus entered the second and last phase of his atoning work.
Investigative Judgment - the fate of all people will be decided based upon this event in the future.
The dead do not exist anymore -- soul sleep.
The wicked are annihilated.
Ellen G. White, the "founder" of Seventh Day Adventism, was a messenger from God gifted with the spirit of prophecy.
There is a sanctuary in heaven where Jesus carries out his mediatorial work.


They are worded in a way that misrepresents the actual doctrines.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Jesus will return to set up a millennial kingdom. They are Premillennial.
Literal six day creation, not long periods.

Do you, or do you not believe that Christ will return at some point in the future and will reign on earth for a thousand years?

Denies the eternality of hell fire.

Do you not believe that Hell, after having served its purpose will eventually burn out? Do you not believe that the wicked thrown into Hell will NOT burn for all eternity?

Worship must be done on Saturday (the Sabbath).

C'mon now! I've read it for myself. Ellen G. White believed that if you did not worship on Saturday, but worshipped on Sunday that you had the Mark of the Beast. That's pretty clear evidence for the above statement.

Investigative Judgment - the fate of all people will be decided based upon this event in the future.

According to SDA doctrine this is true. Is it not true (sic) that Jesus at this present time is still "atoning for" or investigating the books of every believer. Thus one cannot know for sure until the end. It becomes a works salvation. This SDA doctrine alone is one of the biggest and most dangerous heresies of the SDA and has no Scriptural foundation whatsoever. It is pure Ellen G. Whitism.

The dead do not exist anymore -- soul sleep.

Your doctrine of soul sleep leads the average person to believe this way. The dead doesn't exist. That is, Abraham, David, or one's saved relatives are not with Jesus as we believe. They don't exist, and will not exist until the resurrection. The statement is accurate.

They are worded in a way that misrepresents the actual doctrines.

They are not misleading; they are worded in a way that you are not used to. They are still truthful statements.
Try these ones:

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/seventhday.htm

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/whywalter1.htm

 

[Yelsew]

Denials: "Denies the eternality of hell fire. "

Considering the events in Revelation where it is determined that this heaven and earth will pass away to be replaced by a new Heaven and New earth, there is room for thought that hell may not be eternal. However the fate of those cast into hell is eternal, there will never be a redemption from hell. Once one is cast into hell his fate is sealed from thence forward. Though those cast into hell have an eternal fate, hell itself will not exist throughout eternity.

If this Heaven and Earth, with its Hell, pass away it is logical that hell passes away with it, for these are all things of this creation. And, if this creation passes away and a new creation is made it will be made without a hell because there will be no evil in the new heaven and new earth. So those who are cast into the lake of fire, though it is for eternity, will not be living in hell for eternity, but will exist no longer than this heaven and earth exists. Eternity will not see them for they are gone forever.

Just something to consider.

 

[Me2]

Hi Yelsew,

the day I believed Jesus christ was my lord.

death and hell were thrown into the Lake of fire.

death, because my new spirit, which cannot sin and is no longer capable of being seperated from God.

and hell,

because I believe "hell" is the seperation of a believer and HIs GOD as they contend with the law and their flesh trying to please God. and at the same moment satan is accusing them of failing to follow the Law and the Holy Spirit is reminding them that Gods Law is holy and Good. they fear judgement and at the same time are competing with their version of God loving them (which is inadiquate) and how they would invision themselves loving others. (based on worth)

and I believed that my flesh is considered dead..and no longer in enmity against Gods law.

thats "hell" compared to living in Gods grace of unconditional love, and forgiveness, and mercy.

just some more to consider...