The Soul, the Aeolian Body, Death, Mistranslation of the Word Spirit, Identity of the Airflow of God

[HankD]

I remember Garner Ted Armstrong and the the TV program. If memory serves me, there was a split in the church with a large part embracing more orthodox Christian beliefs. If I am not mistaken, the group that holds to the original teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong are called Philadelphian's? And, the larger, more orthodox group is the WWCOG?

I also seem to remember 60 Minutes having a segment which covered the financial scandal that Garner was involved in. Herbert W. Armstrong had long since passed.

I wasn't aware that Hebrew Roots grew out of this. However, I can see where he might have drawn from the teachings of Armstrongism. I have a close friend whose brother is deeply involved in Hebrew Roots. I don't think my friend is aware of the background from
which they draw their teachings.

Thanks for your feedback, Hank

Welcome. We had an individual at our local church who got involved and converted to HR causing trouble on the way out.

 

[teknonoftheos]

You say your position that the Holy Spirit as actually the 'Airflow of God' is not a new revelation and is what is found in scripture but I don't recall reading of anyone in the history of Christianity that made such a claim. Surely you have evidence of your claim about this also. Again, I have found nothing that indicates that your position has been held by other 'believers'. Jehovah's Witnesses use similar arguments as you have regarding angels being called gods and Jesus being a 'little god'. JW's also refer to the Holy Spirit as 'an active force' but that is as close as I can find of similar beliefs as you hold. I see JW's as modern day Arians, but that is irrelevant to the discussion. Could you point me to some historical evidence of similar 'true-believers' such as you-other than your claim that 'it is obvious in scripture'? Thanks!

Evidence of my claim? Look at the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. You will not find a reference to "pneuma" or "ruach" where it does not ever pertain to breath or wind. We need not go to the corners of the earth to see the obvious.

 

[utilyan]

Evidence of my claim? Look at the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. You will not find a reference to "pneuma" or "ruach" where it does not ever pertain to breath or wind. We need not go to the corners of the earth to see the obvious.

" Look at the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts."

Who holds the manuscripts and how can we trust none have been tampered, altered or forgeries?

 

[HankD]

Evidence of my claim? Look at the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. You will not find a reference to "pneuma" or "ruach" where it does not ever pertain to breath or wind. We need not go to the corners of the earth to see the obvious.

But you yourself have said their are forgeries here and there in the manuscripts. Who told you that? what is your evidence?

 

[teknonoftheos]

you do not have a basis to learn truth.

It does not mean annihilate, apollymi means render useless, put out of way , useless



Do you sin?

It means "cease to exist", hence,

So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. 19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.’” (Ezekiel 28:18-19)

Which is a prophecy against Satan, who will eventually be destroyed, meaning cease to exist. God has predestined already who will be saved, and who will not be saved. There would be no purpose to predestine those he appointed will not be saved to endless torment. Once those he appointed are destroyed in Gehenna, to demonstrate the wrath, judgment, and power of God through their destruction, then they serve no further purpose, but to cease to exist. Again, you err greatly in your understanding of God.

 

[HankD]

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

In verse 13 the Spirit of truth - "the Spirit" is neuter as it should be because that is its Koine Greek root gender.

However you will see that Jesus (The Lord of everything including language) in this case uses MASCULINE pronouns for the Spirit of God. He even uses the demonstrative nominative MASCULINE singular pronoun ekeinos.(himself) a reflexive proving that the Spirit is a person.

Verse 13 forever proves without a doubt that "the Spirit of truth" is a person.

 

[teknonoftheos]

" Look at the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts."

Who holds the manuscripts and how can we trust none have been tampered, altered or forgeries?

They are available on the internet. And they have indeed been altered, which is why when you do a manuscript comparison, you will arrive at this precise conclusion. Take a look at one of the verses here at Biblehub 1 John 5:7 For there are three that testify: , only around six render it in the false trinitarian form, because it only exists in manuscripts from around the 16th century and onwards. And the reason this is so is because it was a forgery, which serves a greater lie, the lie of the trinity that was forged unto that verse. Open your eyes.

 

[utilyan]

Definition of AIRFLOW

First Known Use of Airflow
1878, in the meaning defined

: a flow of airespecially : the motion of air (as around parts of an airplane in flight) relative to the surface of a body immersed in it

Airflow is a new word apparently.

Ecclesiastes 7

8The end of a matter is better than its beginning;
Patience of spirit is better than haughtiness of spirit.


Is the character being described or is it better to be less gassy then more gassy?

 

[teknonoftheos]

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

In verse 13 the Spirit of truth - "the Spirit" is neuter as it should be because that is its Koine Greek root gender.

However you will see that Jesus (The Lord of everything including language) in this case uses MASCULINE pronouns for the Spirit of God. He even uses the demonstrative nominative MASCULINE singular pronoun ekeinos.(himself).

Verse 13 forever proves without a doubt that "the Spirit of truth" is a person.

I never said the set-apart airflow was not a person, I said that the set-apart airflow is an angel that has taken the form of airflow, which in fact affirms that he is indeed a person. Understand.

 

[teknonoftheos]

But you yourself have said their are forgeries here and there in the manuscripts. Who told you that? what is your evidence?

They are available on the internet. And they have indeed been altered, which is why when you do a manuscript comparison, you will arrive at this precise conclusion. Take a look at one of the verses here at Biblehub 1 John 5:7 For there are three that testify: , only around six render it in the false trinitarian form, because it only exists in manuscripts from around the 16th century and onwards. And the reason this is so is because it was a forgery, which serves a greater lie, the lie of the trinity that was forged unto that verse. Open your eyes.

 

[utilyan]

They are available on the internet. And they have indeed been altered, which is why when you do a manuscript comparison, you will arrive at this precise conclusion. Take a look at one of the verses here at Biblehub 1 John 5:7 For there are three that testify: , only around six render it in the false trinitarian form, because it only exists in manuscripts from around the 16th century and onwards. And the reason this was a forgery was because it serves a greater lie, the lie of the trinity that was forged unto that verse. Open your eyes.

The manuscripts that you would consider LEGIT, who holds them?

 

[teknonoftheos]

The manuscripts that you would consider LEGIT, who holds them?

We are not speaking of legit manuscripts, we are speaking of this verse specifically, throughout various manuscripts. Let us not divert the attention away from the specific topic at hand.

 

[loDebar]

It means "cease to exist", hence,

So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. 19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.’” (Ezekiel 28:18-19)

Which is a prophecy against Satan, who will eventually be destroyed, meaning cease to exist. God has predestined already who will be saved, and who will not be saved. There would be no purpose to predestine those he appointed will not be saved to endless torment. Once those he appointed are destroyed in Gehenna, to demonstrate the wrath, judgment, and power of God through their destruction, then they serve no further purpose, but to cease to exist. Again, you err greatly in your understanding of God.

gehenna is not Hell, this destroy is not cease to exist but

1. to destroy
   1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
   2. render useless
   3. to kill
   4. to declare that one must be put to death
   5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
   6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2. to destroy
   1. to lose

It is different than katalyō which does mean destroy

Consider these verses

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Co 15:50

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

what shall always be"ever be with the Lord"?

 

[teknonoftheos]

gehenna is not Hell, this destroy is not cease to exist but

1. to destroy
   1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
   2. render useless
   3. to kill
   4. to declare that one must be put to death
   5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
   6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2. to destroy
   1. to lose

It is different than katalyō which does mean destroy

Consider these verses

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Co 15:50

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

what shall always be"ever be with the Lord"?

Gehenna is indeed Hell, for it will be a visible place on the earth, which is how mankind will see dead bodies there, because anyone thrown there will die,

“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” (Isaiah 66:24 [NIV])

Which will be in the valley of Hinnom, the Hebrew name for the Greek name Gehenna, which is the same place Yeshuah spoke of in reference to this same prophecy in Isaiah where worms don't die and the fire is not quenched,

And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where “‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.‘ (Mark 9:47-48 [NIV])

Which is on the south side of the walls of Jerusalem, where a river a lava will flow from the presence of the Messiah at his return, and will fill this valley with lava,

“As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him... (Daniel 7:9-10)

And thrones will be established on the east side of the walls of Jerusalem, in the valley of Jehoshafat, where my true fellow believers in Yeshuah and I will sit on thrones and be given authority to judge the world, to then be cast the lawless of the nations that are brought to us by angels into the lava on the south side,

... the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-10)

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge... (Revelation 20:4)

Or do you not know that the set-apart ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! (1 Corinthians 6:2-3)

I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial... (Joel 3:2)

The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. (Matthew 13:41)

 

[HankD]

They are available on the internet. And they have indeed been altered, which is why when you do a manuscript comparison, you will arrive at this precise conclusion. Take a look at one of the verses here at Biblehub 1 John 5:7 For there are three that testify: , only around six render it in the false trinitarian form, because it only exists in manuscripts from around the 16th century and onwards. And the reason this was a forgery was because it serves a greater lie, the lie of the trinity that was forged unto that verse. Open your eyes.

Your scholarship is lacking teknon. Granted the "Trinity" took 3 centuries before it was promulgated by the council of Nicea. The Trinity had been know all along.

The Trinity has been known from the beginning.


The word for God in the very first passage of the Hebrew Bible uses the word Elohim (plural) for God

בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

The third word in from the RIGHT is Elohim - plural.

Then in verse 26
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Later the tetragrammaton (YHWH) was used together with Elohim YHWH-Elohim.

Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Lord God : יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים

YHWH is a concatenation of the three tenses of "I was, I am, I will be" translated by the KJV translators as I AM or Jehovah or LORD (all uppercase).
YHWH (Jehovah) is a singular masculine noun.

Lord God YHWH-Elohim used together - God is a plurality of persons in one Godhead.
It was not until the advent of Jesus Christ the Logos the second person of the Trinity that we were given the full definition of the Trinitarian Godhead.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

In the Great Commission:
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

[teknonoftheos]

Your scholarship is lacking teknon. Granted the "Trinity" took 3 centuries before it was promulgated by the council of Nicea. The Trinity had been know all along.

The Trinity has been known from the beginning.


The word for God in the very first passage of the Hebrew Bible uses the word Elohim (plural) for God

בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

The third word in from the RIGHT is Elohim - plural.

Then in verse 26
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Later the tetragrammaton (YHWH) was used together with Elohim YHWH-Elohim.

Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Lord God : יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים

YHWH is a concatenation of the three tenses of "I was, I am, I will be" translated by the KJV translators as I AM or Jehovah or LORD (all uppercase).
YHWH (Jehovah) is a singular masculine noun.

Lord God YHWH-Elohim used together - God is a plurality of persons in one Godhead.
It was not until the advent of Jesus Christ the Logos the second person of the Trinity that we were given the full definition of the Trinitarian Godhead.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

In the Great Commission:
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

This is stupid. "Elohim" is not plural because it validates your lie of the trinity whose obvious forgeries unto the scriptures you are either ignoring or denying, but because the speaker of "let us make man" was speaking to those in heaven, not just the Father, but also angels, for after the command was issued by the "airflow of God that hovered above the waters" to make man, which was the identity of Yeshuah in the beginning, which was recorded in chapter 1 of Genesis, the command was carried out by Yehovah in chapter 2 of Genesis, which is the first instance of the name of Yehovah in the Torah, because that was the name of the angel that appeared to Moses, where Genesis 2 describes the beginning of creation within the context of Yehovah, as opposed to Genesis 1 within the context of Yeshuah, which was the angel that formed man and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, hence "Yehovah God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils", through the command issued by Yeshuah, for man was not just made in the image of God, but he was also man in the image of the heavenly man, which are angels, for we were made lesser than they, bearing their image. And in this way, is why "Elohim" is plural, because the creation of the world was not just carried out by one, but by several, "Elohim", all acting as one.

 

[HankD]

This is stupid. "Elohim" is not plural because it validates your lie of the trinity whose obvious forgeries unto the scriptures you are either ignoring or denying, but because the speaker of "let us make man" was speaking to those in heaven, not just the Father, but also angels, for after the command was issued by the "airflow of God that hovered above the waters" to make man, which was the identity of Yeshuah in the beginning, which was recorded in chapter 1 of Genesis, the command was carried out by Yehovah in chapter 2 of Genesis, which is the first instance of the name of Yehovah in the Torah, because that was the name of the angel that appeared to Moses, where Genesis 2 describes the beginning of creation within the context of Yehovah, as opposed to Genesis 1 within the context of Yeshuah, which was the angel that formed man and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, hence "Yehovah God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils", through the command issued by Yeshuah, for man was not just made in the image of God, but he was also man in the image of the heavenly man, which are angels, for we were made lesser than they, bearing their image. And in this way, is why "Elohim" is plural, because the creation of the world was not just carried out by one, but by several, "Elohim", all acting as one.

You demonstrate your lack of knowledge of Hebrew teknon. I suggest you visit a rabbi and ask him if ELOHIM is singular or plural.
Even an Hasidim will tell you the truth.

BTW your exposition of Yehovah and Yeshuah is the theology of the Jehovah Witness view of the Godhead and His relationship to Yeshua (small "g" god as they say).

 

[teknonoftheos]

You demonstrate your lack of knowledge of Hebrew teknon. I suggest you visit a rabbi and ask him if ELOHIM is singular or plural.
Even an Hasidim will tell you the truth.

BTW your exposition of Yehovah and Yeshuah is the theology of the Jehovah Witness view of the Godhead and His relationship to Yeshua (small "g" god as they say).

Did you not read anything I said? I explained the true reason why "Elohim" is plural, which you just implied I denied. Stop skimming and read so you can understand and also stop misquoting me.

 

[utilyan]

A rose by any other name is a rose.

You can scribble in airflow, wind, breathe even potato and its still obvious to scripture spirit is spirit.

I don't see where there is any change in what is being conveyed.


We are told worship God in spirit, Should I make sure I turn a fan on when I pray?

 

[teknonoftheos]

A rose by any other name is a rose.

You can scribble in airflow, wind, breathe even potato and its still obvious to scripture spirit is spirit.

I don't see where there is any change in what is being conveyed.


We are told worship God in spirit, Should I make sure I turn a fan on when I pray?

No, it means you must receive the set-apart airflow, to then worship God in truth. Without the set-apart airflow you cannot worship God in truth.