The Soul Who Sins Shall Die

[webdog]

What you are saying is "If Christ [REMAINED] dead spiritually..." That I would agree with. But God restored Him as He also did Adam.

skypair

...no...what I mean is if Christ died spiritually, He would have sinned, since sin is the cause of spiritual death. SP, you really need to take a second look at your view that at any point in Christ's ministry, from birth to death He died spiritually. That is very unorthodox.

 

[webdog]

And you assume Christ resurrected Himself.

I never once alluded to anything resembling such a statement.

You're leaving something out, web. You're forgetting the "spiritual death" is ONLY hopeless after PHYSICAL death.

Spiritual death is only hopeless without Christ, physical death not needed.

 

[Amy.G]

...no...what I mean is if Christ died spiritually, He would have sinned, since sin is the cause of spiritual death. SP, you really need to take a second look at your view that at any point in Christ's ministry, from birth to death He died spiritually. That is very unorthodox.

How can it be anything other than spiritual death? Isn't spiritual death separation from God? Did God forsake Christ? It seems like we want to only apply the physical death of Christ, but we ignore the spiritual part of the judgement sin.
If Christ did not die spiritually, then we don't either. Christ bore our sins. He was not forsaken because of His sins. (He layed on Him the iniquity of us all) God did the same thing to Christ that He does to us because of sin, He departed from Him. Yet, Christ never ceased to be God. As a man, He suffered the same judgement on the cross that we suffer. Christ took our place. He became sin on our behalf. God judged sin through Christ on the cross. If sin separates (spiritual death) us from God, then sin (ours which He bore) also separated Christ from God (spiritual death). This is why Christ had to become a man is it not?

 

[webdog]

How can it be anything other than spiritual death? Isn't spiritual death separation from God? Did God forsake Christ? It seems like we want to only apply the physical death of Christ, but we ignore the spiritual part of the judgement sin.
If Christ did not die spiritually, then we don't either. Christ bore our sins. He was not forsaken because of His sins. (He layed on Him the iniquity of us all) God did the same thing to Christ that He does to us because of sin, He departed from Him. Yet, Christ never ceased to be God. As a man, He suffered the same judgement on the cross that we suffer. Christ took our place. He became sin on our behalf. God judged sin through Christ on the cross. If sin separates (spiritual death) us from God, then sin (ours which He bore) also separated Christ from God (spiritual death). This is why Christ had to become a man is it not?

One can be forsaken (rejected) without dying. Every day fathers in this country reject their children, but they don't kill them nor do the children die upon rejection...they just "walk out" on them. Some reconcile, some don't. Our Heavenly Father did.
If Christ died spiritually, He would have committed sin, and since HE was the atonement for sin...if He died spiritually, there would never be atonement made for anyone including Christ. I know you don't believe we die spiritually for having the sin of Adam transferred to us...so why would Christ die spiritually for having our sin transferred to Him? When the Priest's hand was placed on the sacrifice for the atonement, the animal didn't die spiritually, but the sin was transferred to the animal which was slaughtered...which had it's blood shed. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Christ's blood was needed to cleanse sin, not His spiritual death. Each person dies spiritually for THEIR sin, not the sin of others, Christ included.

 

[Amy.G]

One can be forsaken (rejected) without dying. Every day fathers in this country reject their children, but they don't kill them nor do the children die upon rejection...they just "walk out" on them. Some reconcile, some don't. Our Heavenly Father did.

This cannot be compared to the atonement. God does not walk out on His children.

If Christ died spiritually, He would have committed sin, and since HE was the atonement for sin...if He died spiritually, there would never be atonement made for anyone including Christ.

By that logic, Christ should not have been crucified either, because He did not sin.

Spiritual death does not mean we cease to exist without hope of reconciliation to God. It means separation from God. When Christ cried out "why have You forsaken Me?" He was separated from God at that moment. There is no other way to interpret it. Separation from God is spiritual death. But it was not permanent because once His blood was poured out and He died physically, the atonement was made ("it is finished") and He was reconciled to the Father.
We are spiritually dead until the blood of Christ reconciles us to the Father through our faith.

I know you don't believe we die spiritually for having the sin of Adam transferred to us...

No. I don't.

so why would Christ die spiritually for having our sin transferred to Him?

Then why did Christ die at all, even physically? Because our sin was transferred to Him, like you said. But it was our sin that caused the separation from God.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Christ's blood was needed to cleanse sin, not His spiritual death. Each person dies spiritually for THEIR sin, not the sin of others, Christ included.

Again, Christ did not die for His sins. That is the point. Yet He suffered all the consequences for sin, physical death and separation from God.

See, this is what happens when I get something on my mind and start thinking about it endlessly. :laugh:

 

[skypair]

...no...what I mean is if Christ died spiritually, He would have sinned, since sin is the cause of spiritual death. SP, you really need to take a second look at your view that at any point in Christ's ministry, from birth to death He died spiritually. That is very unorthodox.

Web, He DID sin -- He took upon Himself OUR sins, OUR guilt, just before God forsook Him.

Web, if I understand you correctly, you're denying the doctrine of "substitutionary atonement." I believe that the same thing was forseen in Adam. He was not deceived. He ate the apple "eyes wide open" and purposely. Why? To save his "bride."

So he partook of her sin and died spiritually -- separated from God -- and God had to come looking for him. God had to restore him.

You're not denying that Christ took our sin, are you? That our sin was "judged" in Him at the cross?

I know you don't believe we die spiritually for having the sin of Adam transferred to us...so why would Christ die spiritually for having our sin transferred to Him?

Perhaps the first premise is making you misunderstand the 2nd, web. No, we don't die spiritually in Adam -- we die spiritually on account of our own sin. But we can be made alive spiritually by (key word) "faith" that Christ stood in our place of guilt and God raised us in Him from spiritual death. That is, as we followed Adam into spiritual death by sin, so we must follow Christ in spiritual life by faith in the full payment at the cross.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Web, He DID sin -- He took upon Himself OUR sins, OUR guilt, just before God forsook Him.

Web, if I understand you correctly, you're denying the doctrine of "substitutionary atonement." I believe that the same thing was forseen in Adam. He was not deceived. He ate the apple "eyes wide open" and purposely. Why? To save his "bride."

So he partook of her sin and died spiritually -- separated from God -- and God had to come looking for him. God had to restore him.

You're not denying that Christ took our sin, are you? That our sin was "judged" in Him at the cross?

Perhaps the first premise is making you misunderstand the 2nd, web. No, we don't die spiritually in Adam -- we die spiritually on account of our own sin. But we can be made alive spiritually by (key word) "faith" that Christ stood in our place of guilt and God raised us in Him from spiritual death. That is, as we followed Adam into spiritual death by sin, so we must follow Christ in spiritual life by faith in the full payment at the cross.

skypair

Taking our sin and sinning is two different things. YOu are in dangereous territory there Skypair!

1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Bob,

 

[Jarthur001]

Taking our sin and sinning is two different things. YOu are in dangereous territory there Skypair!

1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Bob,

I am with you on this one BBob.:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

 

[Marcia]

Taking our sin and sinning is two different things. ...

1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Bob,

I have to agree with Brother Bob on this point. Jesus took on the weight of our sins but never sinned.
................................

It seems the main issue here is did Jesus suffer being forsaken by God? It seems that He did but my thinking is that we don't know exactly what this means, and the Scriptures don't tell us.

I cannot bring myself to say that Jesus died spiritually.

There is separation from God of the lost while alive (what I think people are calling spiritual death), physical death, then eternal separation from God after death if there is no reconciliation in Christ (2nd death, i.e. lake of fire).

I can't put Jesus into any of those categories except the physical death of his body. I think that what He experienced on the cross was unique since no one else could do that, and doesn't fit what we call spiritual death for men. I could be wrong -- just thinking it out. (We should have a "thinking" icon).

 

[Brother Bob]

I have to agree with Brother Bob on this point. Jesus took on the weight of our sins but never sinned.
................................

It seems the main issue here is did Jesus suffer being forsaken by God? It seems that He did but my thinking is that we don't know exactly what this means, and the Scriptures don't tell us.

I cannot bring myself to say that Jesus died spiritually.

There is separation from God of the lost while alive (what I think people are calling spiritual death), physical death, then eternal separation from God after death if there is no reconciliation in Christ (2nd death, i.e. lake of fire).

I can't put Jesus into any of those categories except the physical death of his body. I think that what He experienced on the cross was unique since no one else could do that, and doesn't fit what we call spiritual death for men. I could be wrong -- just thinking it out. (We should have a "thinking" icon).

I think God had to turn and let death take His son for a moment, or Jesus would not of been able to die. Just a thought of mine.

BBob,

 

[webdog]

This cannot be compared to the atonement. God does not walk out on His children.

...yet He did with His Son at the cross.

By that logic, Christ should not have been crucified either, because He did not sin.

Did the sacrifice of atonement in the OT sin? Not unless you believe animals sin, well I know your cat doesn't, but mine on the other hand...

Spiritual death does not mean we cease to exist without hope of reconciliation to God. It means separation from God. When Christ cried out "why have You forsaken Me?" He was separated from God at that moment. There is no other way to interpret it. Separation from God is spiritual death. But it was not permanent because once His blood was poured out and He died physically, the atonement was made ("it is finished") and He was reconciled to the Father.

Death is permanent without God's working to resurrect us. Like I have been saying, if Christ died spiritually...that is a permanent thing, since HE died for those who are spiritually dead.

We are spiritually dead until the blood of Christ reconciles us to the Father through our faith.

You're preaching to the choir. Now, if Christ died spiritually...who would He have put His faith in?

 

[Marcia]

I think God had to turn and let death take His son for a moment, or Jesus would not of been able to die. Just a thought of mine.

BBob,

Well, that's an interesting thought, Brother Bob.

 

[skypair]

Taking our sin and sinning is two different things. YOu are in dangereous territory there Skypair!

No more dangerous than Adam. No more dangerous than I was if I "take" Adam's sin as Webdog believes!

1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

BBob, do you want Him to take your sin at the cross or do you want to pay for it yourself???

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Doesn't that just say it all??? "Made Him to be sin for us?" Do you want to make Him out to be Satan? Is that your point?

skypair

 

[skypair]

I have to agree with Brother Bob on this point. Jesus took on the weight of our sins but never sinned.

Well then, it seems we have a "semantical" difference of opinion.

So just compare it to what Adam did in the garden. Adam was not deceived -- neither was Jesus. Both knew that they would have to bear the sin(s) that would trangress God's law in order to save their 'bride."

I don't know how you fit sin into the cross unless you make Christ "guilty" of our sins.

Since it seems to be a semantic issue, what does Christ being "forsaken" of God mean to you??

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

Did the sacrifice of atonement in the OT sin? Not unless you believe animals sin, well I know your cat doesn't, but mine on the other hand...

My cats are purrfect! :laugh:

Death is permanent without God's working to resurrect us. Like I have been saying, if Christ died spiritually...that is a permanent thing, since HE died for those who are spiritually dead.
You're preaching to the choir. Now, if Christ died spiritually...who would He have put His faith in?

It wasn't permanent because at the same time Christ took our sin and died for them, He was also God reconciling us to the Father. If Christ is fully human, He surely must have experienced death (physical and spiritual) just as we humans do.

"why have you forsaken me?"

King James Dictionary
FORSA'KE, v.t. pret. forsook; pp. forsaken. See Seek .

1. To quit or leave entirely; to desert; to abandon; to depart from. Friends and flatterers forsake us in adversity.
Forsake the foolish, and live. Prov. 9.

2. To abandon; to renounce; to reject.
If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments - Ps. 89.

Cease from anger, and forsake wrath. Ps. 37.

3. To leave; to withdraw from; to fail. In anger, the color forsakes the cheeks. In severe trials, let not fortitude forsake you.
4. In scripture, God forsakes his people, when he withdraws his aid, or the light of his countenance.

 

[Marcia]

Well then, it seems we have a "semantical" difference of opinion.

So just compare it to what Adam did in the garden. Adam was not deceived -- neither was Jesus. Both knew that they would have to bear the sin(s) that would trangress God's law in order to save their 'bride."

I don't know how you fit sin into the cross unless you make Christ "guilty" of our sins.

Since it seems to be a semantic issue, what does Christ being "forsaken" of God mean to you??

skypair

Christ was declared guilty, He was not actually guilty - there's a difference.

Our sins were imputed to Him, just as His righteousness was imputed to us. He was not really guilty of our sins, but he willingly bore them in order to pay the penalty for them.

I've already posted my thoughts on Christ being forsaken - I think since it goes to the nature of God we can't really explain or understand it.

 

[Jarthur001]

Christ was declared guilty, He was not actually guilty - there's a difference.

Our sins were imputed to Him, just as His righteousness was imputed to us. He was not really guilty of our sins, but he willingly bore them in order to pay the penalty for them.

Yes!! This is the key...

 

[webdog]

No more dangerous than Adam. No more dangerous than I was if I "take" Adam's sin as Webdog believes!

SP, why not let me state what I believe instead of you telling me what I believe. If you think I believe in augustinian original sin, you have a VERY short memory.

 

[skypair]

Christ was declared guilty, He was not actually guilty - there's a difference.

Our sins were imputed to Him, just as His righteousness was imputed to us. He was not really guilty of our sins, but he willingly bore them in order to pay the penalty for them.

Obviously you are trying to protect the truth of some verse or other -- perhaps "knew no sin was made sin for us?"

I don't believe my assertion violates that passage. Though He knew no sin, at the point of the cross, He would have. It might have been a "shocker" that He was or what it was like to be foresaken by God for sin since He had never sinned before.

If Christ bearing my sin on the cross is "as if" He bore my sin, then when I am justified in Him, it is "as if" I had never sinned, right? I mean, you're right. How can that exchange be made so we can understand it? The best we can do is go by what we see in scripture, right?

skypair

 

[Marcia]

Obviously you are trying to protect the truth of some verse or other -- perhaps "knew no sin was made sin for us?"

"Protect the truth???" God does not need me to "protect" the truth of his word.

I don't believe my assertion violates that passage. Though He knew no sin, at the point of the cross, He would have. It might have been a "shocker" that He was or what it was like to be foresaken by God for sin since He had never sinned before.

Are you asserting that Christ sinned? It seems the last few words here are saying that. Or are you saying he had never sinned but now knew what sin was? I think Jesus always knew what sin was - He created us! He watched Adam and Eve in the Garden sin, etc. I do agree that being "forsaken" would be a first.

If Christ bearing my sin on the cross is "as if" He bore my sin, then when I am justified in Him, it is "as if" I had never sinned, right? I mean, you're right.

Yes, it's "as if" you never sinned but it's an imputation - a legal declaration. It's not really as if you had never actually sinned. Same with Jesus - it' s not as if he had ever sinned.

How can that exchange be made so we can understand it? The best we can do is go by what we see in scripture, right?

Right, I think that's what I did. I think the teaching about imputation and that this was a legal declaration is the best way to understand it.