The Soul

[Jim1999]

Not all theologians agree on the trichotomy of man. Some believe in body, soul/spirit. Soul and spirit are one and the same.

We are still looking for a definition of soul. We have heard what it does and that it is there, but not yet a definition.

Are we to assume, like Kant, the soul exists from eternity past? Thus agreeing with Plato and Origen.

Then we have the Lutheran and Reformers viewpoint of the soul propagated by natural generation. The soul was immediately created in Adam.

Then we have the creation theory: God created the soul sometime between conception and birth. Also advocated by the RC Church and Reformers.

As a divine creation, is the soul pure and free from sin?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[THEOLDMAN]

Very strange teaching indeed!

God has declared the life is in the blood (Lev 17). Can a soul remain in a lifeless body? Does not the death of the body release the soul?

As long as the heart continues to pump the blood keeping the body alive then the soul remains. Correct?

Is soul and spirit synomynous? Stephen asked God to receive his spirit. Did Stephen's soul go somewhere else or cease to exist?

I have not arrived at this belief myself...yet. But it does intrest me, because Jesus was a Jew. Jews don't usually change what they teach over time. I wonder if this is what Jesus was taught. And if so , if not the truth, why didn't he teach against it.

 

[Jim1999]

It is the brain that keeps the blood pumping to the physical heart, which is just an organ of the body.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Palatka51]

Not all theologians agree on the trichotomy of man. Some believe in body, soul/spirit. Soul and spirit are one and the same.

We are still looking for a definition of soul. We have heard what it does and that it is there, but not yet a definition.

The soul is something that is not examined with a microscope. However, Job says this;

11Therefore I will not refrain my mouth;(body) I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Are we to assume, like Kant, the soul exists from eternity past? Thus agreeing with Plato and Origen.

No!! Only God has always existed. To imply that we too existed borders on equality with God.

Then we have the Lutheran and Reformers viewpoint of the soul propagated by natural generation. The soul was immediately created in Adam.

Only after God breathed into his nostrils. Every successive person thereafter is a living soul at conception. Job also tells us that every living thing has a soul;
Job 12:9&10
9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Then we have the creation theory: God created the soul sometime between conception and birth. Also advocated by the RC Church and Reformers.

As a divine creation, is the soul pure and free from sin?

Job does give much insight into the soul and it seems to me that Job is pointing to the seat of emotions as the soul.
Job 14:22
22But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.

More of the soul's relationship with emotion.
Psalm 13:2
2 How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily?

I am not saying that this is what I believe, what I am saying is that it seems that many scripture is pointing to the seat of emotions as the location of the soul.

I personally believe that as soon as the chromosomes of the mother and those of the father have merged, the soul of a new human being is in place.

 

[Jim1999]

Quote:

"Neshamah" - (f.; pl. "Neshamot"); soul or breath; as in "BeYom HaShabbat yesh leAdam Neshamah Yetera," "On the Day of Shabbat, a person has an 'extra soul,' " or "VaYipach be-apo nishmat chayim," "And G-d breathed into his nose the breath of life." (Bereshit (2:7)

-----------------------------------​

Someone mentioned the Jewish concept of soul after 30 days....This is where it comes from.....God breathed the soul through the nostrils after 30 days of life.​

Just for interest.​

Cheers,​

Jim

PS> NOTE.. I can't discuss this further because the BB has already decided that the soul comes at conception, and I can't agree with that viewpoint.​

 

[steaver]

Jim

PS> NOTE.. I can't discuss this further because the BB has already decided that the soul comes at conception, and I can't agree with that viewpoint.

Brother,

There is ample scripture that points to a person (a living soul) having "soul" at the first sign of "life".

There is ZERO scripture stating anything to support any other view that I have seen.

So why is it you have trouble agreeing with the soul being in a man at the first sign of life?

Can you give any other scripture that supports any other possibility?? If not, why reject the scripture that states "God breathed into the nostrals and man became a living soul"?

Without soul you cannot be pyhsically alive!

Jam 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Therefore, If the baby/body is ALIVE it has a SPIRIT/SOUL.


Gid Bless! :jesus:

 

[THEOLDMAN]

Quote:

"Neshamah" - (f.; pl. "Neshamot"); soul or breath; as in "BeYom HaShabbat yesh leAdam Neshamah Yetera," "On the Day of Shabbat, a person has an 'extra soul,' " or "VaYipach be-apo nishmat chayim," "And G-d breathed into his nose the breath of life." (Bereshit (2:7)

-----------------------------------​

Someone mentioned the Jewish concept of soul after 30 days....This is where it comes from.....God breathed the soul through the nostrils after 30 days of life.​

Just for interest.​

Cheers,​

Jim

PS> NOTE.. I can't discuss this further because the BB has already decided that the soul comes at conception, and I can't agree with that viewpoint.​

Thanks Jim ! I figured I could count on you to shed some light on this concept.

 

[Palatka51]

Thanks Jim ! I figured I could count on you to shed some light on this concept.

You two just keep twisting scripture to justify killing children. If I were doing this I would be in mortal fear for my eternity.

 

[Jim1999]

I have never killed a child, and have no intentions of doing it in the future. Remember my statement: "Abortion if necessary, but not necessarily abortion." I do not condemn those who have had abortions for medical reasons, but a general blast against abortion does just that, and that would include d&c's and even miscarriages. They are all "abortions" whether caused or happenning. As an excuse for loose living; NO!, as an excuse to escape personal responsibility; NO! Understanding the person who has had an abortion; ALWAYS! Just to make it clear, I am not an advocate for abortion, and I cannot recall ever saying that I was.

On the origin of the soul, I place it somewhere between conception and actual birth. I don't find scripture definitive on the matter, and I have my questions on medical determination. This is just my opinion.

I hope that explains my viewpoint and stops the name calling in this department.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[steaver]

Jim;
On the origin of the soul, I place it somewhere between conception and actual birth. I don't find scripture definitive on the matter, and I have my questions on medical determination. This is just my opinion.

What scripture would have you place the soul entering somewhere between conception and birth?

Jam 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Therefore, If the baby/body is ALIVE it has a SPIRIT/SOUL.

 

[Marcia]

Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;and man became a living soul.



Ok :thumbsup:

Here "soul" means "life." It does not mean we are souls are spirit creatures. We are embodied creatures - humans who are body, mind and soul/spirit. I am not sure what you are saying.

 

[Marcia]

Its your spirit. I don't know; I like watchman nee's perspective on the whole matter. Its what ties us to eternity. Plato and Socrates consider matter to be forms of the spiritual realm. CS Lewis believed that the Spiritual world was more substantial or substantive than the Material world. that in comparison the material world is a wisp of smoke in comparison and you get his meaning when you see the space between the nucleus of an Atom and its electrons or between atoms.

I do not like what I've read of Watchman Nee. I think he did a lot of eisigesis.

This idea that the spiritual world is more substantive than the material world sounds Gnostic. It also reminds me of the New Age.

Jesus resurrected in his physical body. This is of primary importance.

 

[Marcia]

I have not arrived at this belief myself...yet. But it does intrest me, because Jesus was a Jew. Jews don't usually change what they teach over time. I wonder if this is what Jesus was taught. And if so , if not the truth, why didn't he teach against it.

There is no biblical support for such a belief. It probably comes from extra-biblical sources or from folklore (that a baby does not have a soul until 30 days after birth). It reminds me of the New Age belief that a baby is not a person until he/she breathes at birth and/or that the soul does not enter the baby until shortly before or after birth. This is why they can justify abortion.

 

[Marcia]

Not all theologians agree on the trichotomy of man. Some believe in body, soul/spirit. Soul and spirit are one and the same.

Right! I'm one of them - soul and spirit are often used interchangeably in the Bible.

We are still looking for a definition of soul. We have heard what it does and that it is there, but not yet a definition.

I think for a definition we would have to look to God's word, and He doesn't define it. I think that is why there is so much speculation and may I say, misinformation on it.

Are we to assume, like Kant, the soul exists from eternity past? Thus agreeing with Plato and Origen.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then we have the Lutheran and Reformers viewpoint of the soul propagated by natural generation. The soul was immediately created in Adam.

Then we have the creation theory: God created the soul sometime between conception and birth. Also advocated by the RC Church and Reformers.

We just don't know although I think the soul is present at conception but not before.

As a divine creation, is the soul pure and free from sin?

The soul is part of who we are and we are fallen, so no, the soul is not pure and free from sin.

 

[Jim1999]

The question of the soul coing 30 days after birth is in the Jewish scriptures,,ask any Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. I quote the source in my original quote.

On the soul entering the body anytime between conception and actual birth is as old as any other verse and taught by Aristotle, Jerome, Pelagius and in modernity by the Roman Catholic Church and Reformed theologians. It is hardly to defend abortion. Have you ever heard the Roman Catholic Church people speak on abortion? Many Reformed churches would have the same stance. It is commonly called the Creation Theory. There essentially three theories on the soul's beginning, and please note, they are all theories, even though each one quotes substantive scriptures. I have spent a lifetime trying to decide which one I wanted to accept..It ain't s easy as some people would have us believe.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Steven2006]

Jim,

"The Spiritual Man" by Watchman Nee delves into this topic. I have the book but haven't read it yet. Seems like I have an ever growing list of books in that category but I digress. You might want to check it out.

 

[Marcia]

The question of the soul coing 30 days after birth is in the Jewish scriptures,,ask any Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. I quote the source in my original quote.

Yes, but that's not from the Bible, so it's not God's word. That's why I said "extra-biblical."

 

[Jim1999]

Steven, thank you, but I read that book over 50 years ago. He goes beyond scriptural teaching on the charismatic side, but worthy reading.

It was a must read for missionaries back in the early days.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Steven2006]

Steven, thank you, but I read that book over 50 years ago. He goes beyond scriptural teaching on the charismatic side, but worthy reading.

It was a must read for missionaries back in the early days.

Cheers,

Jim

Thanks, I will remember your warning when I do get around to reading it.

 

[steaver]

Here "soul" means "life." It does not mean we are souls are spirit creatures. We are embodied creatures - humans who are body, mind and soul/spirit. I am not sure what you are saying.

Soul always means life.

Why have you stated "soul/spirit" as one? Are you saying soul and spirit are one in the same? Or are you saying they are inseperable?

I believe every soul/life has a spirit given by God at the moment of life. Just like Genesis states;

Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;and man became a living soul.

Spirit gives spirit and a living soul is created.

Take away the spirit and the body dies (Jame 2:26) Does the soul/life end there? No. Only the phyisical dies. Scripture declares the soul moves on without the body to wherever God sends you.

The body cannot be alive without the spirit, therefore babies in the womb are living souls and must have their spirits.

Jim chooses to deny these truths for whatever personal reason. He claims the scriptures are not definitive. I don't see how the scriptures could be any clearer. I guess he wants the scriptures to say "abortion". The scripture does not say Trinity either, but I'm sure he accepts the Trinity.

:jesus: