The Sovereignty of God is Absolute

[AustinC]

At the end of the day, God is the uncaused cause of everything. Now to the question did God compel by predestination our acceptance or rejection of Christ? That answer is no.

Were we saved by grace? Yes, salvation is a gift from God.

Were we saved by grace through faith? Yes, God utilized our faith in His sovereign decision to save us or not. This is the truth, found over and over in scripture that Reformed Theology denies. They read saved through faith as meaning saved, then given faith. I kid you not...

"God is the uncaused cause of everything."
Would that include the rebellious nature of Satan and man? I ask because you have made a universal statement and you don't seem to agree with Ken.

For me, the problem of sin is a mystery in that God certainly allowed the rebellion of Satan and man, yet God is not held culpable for the rebellion that was caused by God's allowance.

 

[AustinC]

How many times now Austin? What's that old expression " only a fool keeps asking the same question over and over expecting a different result" Are you a fool Austin?

I can keep asking until you have the courage to be honest.

Do you have an answer to the question?

*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Who causes a man to believe? Is it God or is it man?

 

[Silverhair]

I can keep asking until you have the courage to be honest.

Do you have an answer to the question?

*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Who causes a man to believe? Is it God or is it man?

How many times now Austin? What's that old expression " only a fool keeps asking the same question over and over expecting a different result" Are you a fool Austin?

 

[AustinC]

How many times now Austin? What's that old expression " only a fool keeps asking the same question over and over expecting a different result" Are you a fool Austin?

I will keep asking until you have the courage to answer.

Do you have an answer to the question?

*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Who causes a man to believe? Is it God or is it man?

My answer is God, but since you refuse to answer, I am confident your answer is man.

 

[Silverhair]

I will keep asking until you have the courage to answer.

Do you have an answer to the question?

*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Who causes a man to believe? Is it God or is it man?

My answer is God, but since you refuse to answer, I am confident your answer is man.

How many times now Austin? What's that old expression " only a fool keeps asking the same question over and over expecting a different result" Are you a fool Austin?

 

[AustinC]

How many times now Austin? What's that old expression " only a fool keeps asking the same question over and over expecting a different result" Are you a fool Austin?

Sliverhair, you answered. You tell us that man causes man to believe. This is why I call you a Christian humanist.

 

[George Antonios]

Man's will has never determined one single event in the world's history and never will. God's will alone determines events and brings them to pass. It is true that men do act according to their choice, will, intellect, and reason; but this is not the whole truth. The whole truth is that every event, circumstance, opportunity, happening, and thought, whether good or bad, that influences and motivates man's choice is foreordained of God. Sovereignty is the prerogative of God alone. Man is God's creature. There is no such thing as an independent creature. There is no such thing as a free creature. All created things are totally dependent upon and absolutely subject to their Creator's will. If God is the Creator of this universe, He is sovereign over it; and if He is not sovereign over the universe, He is not its Creator.

- Scott Richardson (1923-2010) served as pastor of Katy Baptist Church in Fairmont, West Virginia

Source?

 

[KenH]

Source?

Towards the bottom of the article:

The Sovereignty of God (mountainretreatorg.net)

 

[KenH]

Source?

I could also add this by Scott Richardson:

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD IS ABSOLUTE

To acknowledge this truth is at once to acknowledge that God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass; that nothing else can come to pass; that predestination is a fact, that God does rule in the kingdoms of men; that all human ties, bonds and relationships are divinely appointed and formed; that salvation rests solely, fully, and only in God’s election; that salvation is by God’s grace and His grace alone; and, that no part of man’s salvation is of himself either in origin or execution.

Where men get the idea that man’s will is the all-determining factor or moving cause of his salvation is hard to see.

Certainly they do not get it from the Bible.

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” - John 1:11-13

The Sovereignty of God is Absolute - Scott Richardson (pristinegrace.org)

 

[Van]

"God is the uncaused cause of everything."
Would that include the rebellious nature of Satan and man? I ask because you have made a universal statement and you don't seem to agree with Ken.

For me, the problem of sin is a mystery in that God certainly allowed the rebellion of Satan and man, yet God is not held culpable for the rebellion that was caused by God's allowance.

You deny the God is the Uncaused Cause of Everything? Lets see if any of the other Reformed Theology advocates post agreement with God being the first and primary cause of everything. Or will they all, as AustinC is, run from their own theology.

 

[KenH]

The use of the phrase, "author of sin", is a pejorative hurled by those who are in opposition to the absolute rule and sovereignty of God. They are like those who declare, "We will not have this Man to rule over us!" They are so bound and determined to have a part to play in salvation by their own supposed "free will", that I would not be surprised if they would rather be lost than be saved if they don't get to have a say in the matter.

 

[George Antonios]

The use of the phrase, "author of sin", is a pejorative hurled by those who are in opposition to the absolute rule and sovereignty of God. They are like those who declare, "We will not have this Man to rule over us!" They are so bound and determined to have a part to play in salvation by their own supposed "free will", that I would not be surprised if they would rather be lost than be saved if they don't get to have a say in the matter.

It would be helpful, since you seem well read on the topic, to post a thread where you quote the greatest Calvinist writers stating that God determines all things, even moral evils.

 

[KenH]

It would be helpful, since you seem well read on the topic, to post a thread where you quote the greatest Calvinist writers stating that God determines all things, even moral evils.

I am not a Calvinist. Other than what I have read or heard quoted by others, I have not read John Calvin. I am also not Reformed. My dependence upon being saved by the free sovereign grace of God alone is not reliant upon becoming a better law keeper(i.e., the ten commandments) as proof that I am saved or becoming a better version of me, nor upon Calvinistic or Reformed confessions of faith.

 

[AustinC]

It would be helpful, since you seem well read on the topic, to post a thread where you quote the greatest Calvinist writers stating that God determines all things, even moral evils.

So, quote the Bible?
*Psalm 135:6-13*
Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth, who makes lightnings for the rain and brings forth the wind from his storehouses. He it was who struck down the firstborn of Egypt, both of man and of beast; who in your midst, O Egypt, sent signs and wonders against Pharaoh and all his servants; who struck down many nations and killed mighty kings, Sihon, king of the Amorites, and Og, king of Bashan, and all the kingdoms of Canaan, and gave their land as a heritage, a heritage to his people Israel. Your name, O Lord, endures forever, your renown, O Lord, throughout all ages.

*Isaiah 45:7-11*
I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. “Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the Lord have created it. “Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’? Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’ or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’” Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and the one who formed him: “Ask me of things to come; will you command me concerning my children and the work of my hands?

*Lamentations 3:37-39*
Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come? Why should a living man complain, a man, about the punishment of his sins?

*Acts 4:24-30*
And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, “‘Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’— for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

*Job 42:11*
Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.

Will these quotes suffice?

 

[George Antonios]

I am not a Calvinist. Other than what I have read or heard quoted by others, I have not read John Calvin. I am also not Reformed. My dependence upon being saved by the free sovereign grace of God alone is not reliant upon becoming a better law keeper(i.e., the ten commandments) as proof that I am saved or becoming a better version of me, nor upon Calvinistic or Reformed confessions of faith.

Ok fine; so could you please list such quotes? You've already been doing it. Just need them together, focused on exhaustive determinism, and with the listed sources.

 

[KenH]

Ok fine; so could you please list such quotes? You've already been doing it. Just need them together, focused on exhaustive determinism, and with the listed sources.

My post #25 earlier in this thread should give you plenty to contemplate on the subject.

Also, Vincent Cheung wrote a book on the subject - The Author of Sin (vincentcheung.com) - in which he refutes the phrase "author of sin" as nothing more than a loaded phrase bound in religious tradition.

 

[Silverhair]

Sliverhair, you answered. You tell us that man causes man to believe. This is why I call you a Christian humanist.

Austin that has to be the nicest thing you have ever said to me

In northern Europe in the 16th century, an amalgam of evangelical piety and classical scholarship produced a Christian or biblical humanism. As the sources of wisdom were to be found in the words of Greek and Roman philosophers, so the Christian humanist sought the purest truth in a return to the sources of the faith, the Scriptures. These scholars wanted to discard the layers of scholastic interpretation which had accumulated for 400 years, and return to the essence of Christianity.
Christian Humanism post #2

 

[Silverhair]

I could also add this by Scott Richardson:

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD IS ABSOLUTE

To acknowledge this truth is at once to acknowledge that God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass; that nothing else can come to pass; that predestination is a fact, that God does rule in the kingdoms of men; that all human ties, bonds and relationships are divinely appointed and formed; that salvation rests solely, fully, and only in God’s election; that salvation is by God’s grace and His grace alone; and, that no part of man’s salvation is of himself either in origin or execution.

Where men get the idea that man’s will is the all-determining factor or moving cause of his salvation is hard to see.

Certainly they do not get it from the Bible.

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” - John 1:11-13

The Sovereignty of God is Absolute - Scott Richardson (pristinegrace.org)

No Christian would say that their faith is the cause of their salvation but the bible does indicate that their faith is the condition of their salvation.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[DaveXR650]

Also, Vincent Cheung wrote a book on the subject - The Author of Sin (vincentcheung.com) - in which he refutes the phrase "author of sin" as nothing more than a loaded phrase bound in religious tradition.

He doesn't refute the concept, he only says that you're not allowed to say that because God is God and whatever He does is right. Cheung actually does believe that God is the direct cause of every single sin that anyone does and of everything else too.
Why can't we admit that there is a wide range of views held on this. The Westminster Confession has a view which I think is basically right and it is much more moderate than Ken's or Cheung's. All you guys who are dispensationalists have a high view of God's sovereignty or else you would not be interested in detailed prophesy. How in the world could you have detailed prophesy to understand if it was not ordained?

I can't find it right now but Calvin was pretty meticulous in his view of God's sovereignty. So was Sproul - down to the least molecule. The WCF is more moderate and looks like it was put together by a committee in order to avoid controversy. Come to think of it, it was. A lot of modern men have made such a fetish of their independent free will that that becomes the only thing sovereign to them.

 

[Silverhair]

He doesn't refute the concept, he only says that you're not allowed to say that because God is God and whatever He does is right. Cheung actually does believe that God is the direct cause of every single sin that anyone does and of everything else too.
Why can't we admit that there is a wide range of views held on this. The Westminster Confession has a view which I think is basically right and it is much more moderate than Ken's or Cheung's. All you guys who are dispensationalists have a high view of God's sovereignty or else you would not be interested in detailed prophesy. How in the world could you have detailed prophesy to understand if it was not ordained?

I can't find it right now but Calvin was pretty meticulous in his view of God's sovereignty. So was Sproul - down to the least molecule. The WCF is more moderate and looks like it was put together by a committee in order to avoid controversy. Come to think of it, it was. A lot of modern men have made such a fetish of their independent free will that that becomes the only thing sovereign to them.

While I can agree with you that Kenn and Cheung seem to have run of the cliff with their view it is really not much different from Sproul or Piper for that matter. They all end up making God the only cause of all that happens thus the only cause of all sin and evil.

Where we would differ is in your view of the WCF and I have to include the LBCF.

Chapter III. Of God’s Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: ... WCF
Yes I know that they then had to step back what they had said but that does not alter what they had said does it? And as you well know the concept of total control is trumpeted on this board by more than one person.

I understand that prophecy requires God to ordain that X will happen but when that is extended to all that happens you run back into the problem of God being the author of sin. Man either has a real free will and is thus responsible for his own choices, good or bad, or we have God controlling all things as the WCF & LBCF say and we have God the soul agent of all sin and evil.

What I hear from all the Calvinists is, we want God to be in total absolute control of all things but He is only responsible for the good things and man that is under the total absolute control of God is responsible for all the bad things. And then Calvinists wonder why non-calvinists say this is totally illogical.