The Sovereignty of God is Absolute

[Silverhair]

Good verse, but you turn it into universalism, which means that there are no sinners in the world who need to repent.


Justifying faith comes after salvation, not when you were dead in your trespasses and sins.


Justifying faith comes after salvation.



Spiritually dead cannot hear God's voice.
But God, even when we were dead, made us alive. It's God first.


You refuse to see that you were dead in sins. God must first make you alive and save you by grace, so that God can give you faith to believe. Honestly, you openly reject Ephesians 2:1-7 and just jump to verse 8.



No, you openly reject what God tells you and then pick sentences to try manufacture your humanism.


See, you cannot even quote a whole sentence. You reject Ephesians 1:3-12,which informs verse 13 and 14.



The faith that God gives to those he saves us the faith that justifies.


Only those who hear (are made alive) can call on the name of the Lord. Dead men don't speak.


Yep, everyone whom God has made alive, is given faith to believe and receive their inheritance as adopted children of God.

Thanks for the verses, Sliverhair. It's too bad you don't understand what God is telling you so that you could repent of your humanist pride and humbly give God all the glory as you ought

You call me a Christian humanist which means that I follow scripture. But you Austin openly reject scripture and hold yourself over the text of the bible so that would make you a Gnostic would it not.

 

[AustinC]

You call me a Christian humanist which means that I follow scripture. But you Austin openly reject scripture and hold yourself over the text of the bible so that would make you a Gnostic would it not.

LOl, it's interesting since your humanism is much closer to gnosticism than my belief that God is Sovereign over all things.
So far, you have provided scripture and I haven't rejected one verse. I just don't have a humanist interpretation of that scripture like you have.
I give God the glory, you give yourself the glory

 

[Silverhair]

LOl, it's interesting since your humanism is much closer to gnosticism than my belief that God is Sovereign over all things.
So far, you have provided scripture and I haven't rejected one verse. I just don't have a humanist interpretation of that scripture like you have.
I give God the glory, you give yourself the glory

No, you just reject clear scripture. You actually should just try reading the scripture without your Calvinist glasses. But you will not do that so I will just continue to point your theological errors.

 

[Alan Gross]

, see below, also.

Psalm 50:21 "These [things] hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether [such an one] as thyself: [but] I will reprove thee, and set [them] in order before thine eyes."

1 John 2:16 "For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

The 1677/89 London Baptist Confession of Faith.

Divine Providence

1. God the good Creator of all things, in his infinite power, and wisdom, doth (a) uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all Creatures, and things, from the greatest even to the (b) least, by his most wise and holy providence, to the end for the which they were Created; according unto his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable Counsel of his (c) own will; to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness and mercy.

a Heb. 1.3. Job 38.11. Isa. 46 10,11. Ps. 135.6.

b Mat. 10.29,30,31.

c Eph. 1.11.
2. Although in relation to the foreknowledge and Decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass (d) immutably and
infallibly; so that there is not any thing, befalls any (e) by chance, or without his Providence; yet by the same Providence he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either (f) necessarily, freely, or contingently.

d Act. 2.23.

e Pro. 16.33.

f Gen. 8.22.

3. God in his ordinary Providence (g) maketh use of means; yet is free (h) to work, without, (i) above, and (k) against them at his pleasure.

g Act. 27.31.44. Isa. 55.10 11.

h Hos. 1.7

i Rom. 4.19,20,21.

k Dan. 3.27.
4. The Almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his Providence, that his determinate Councel (l) extendeth it self even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of Angels, and Men; (and that not by a bare permission) which also he most wisely and powerfully (m) boundeth, and otherwise ordereth, and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy (n) ends: yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the Creatures, and not from God; who being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be, the author or (o) approver of sin.

l Rom. 11 32,33.34. 2 Sam. 24 1. 1 Chro. 21.1.

m 2 Kings 19.28. Ps. 76.10.

n Gen. 50 20. Isa. 10 6,7.12.

o Ps. 50.21 1 Joh. 2.16.
1-4, above of 7.

Outline:
I. The summary statement of the doctrine

A. The Author of providence: "the good Creator"
B. The foundation of providence: "his infinite power and wisdom"
C. The essence of providence: "uphold, direct, dispose and govern"
D. The objects of providence: "all creatures and things, from the greatest even to the least"
E. The nature of providence: "by his most wise and holy providence"
F. The compatibility of providence (with His creation): "to the end for which they were created"
G. The determining causes of God's providence:

1. God's mind: "his infallible foreknowledge"
2. God's will: "and the free and immutable counsel of his own will"

H. The goal of providence: "to the praise of the glory...."

2-7 II. The major concerns about the doctrine
2-3 A. The relation of providence to the use of means
2(a) 1. A concession
2(b) 2. An assertion
3 3. A qualification
4-6 B. The relation of providence to the fact of sin
4 1. Sin is general
5 2. Sin in his children
6 3. Sin in the ungodly
7 C. The relation of providence to the care of the church

From: Samuel E. Waldron, A Modern Exposition of the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

 

[Alan Gross]

LOl, it's interesting since your humanism is much closer to gnosticism than my belief that God is Sovereign over all things.

I just don't have a humanist interpretation of that scripture like you have.
I give God the glory, you give yourself the glory

"The objectors have ruled The absolute Sovereignty of God out, let them bring forth their substitute.

"They have now dethroned the eternal Jehovah, will they leave the throne of the universe vacant, or whom will they place upon it?, Besides themselves and their desperately wicked and deceived heart?

Who is their go-to guy???

While we are trying to determine definitions, or I am, humanism is like Arminianism, in that thinks that it dethrones The Sovereign God and exalts man.

And yet Arminianism and Fatalism have a lot of characteristics alike.

The problem for Arminianism then is that Fatalism has it's roots on Heathenism, according to this author, below.

I agree with him.

That may cause someone to fall into the category of, "Fatalist", and Arminianism if they don't already know that, whether the prospect of those two 'lables' thrills anyone, or not.

I just think this 'issue' is enormously important to 'brush up on' and take seriously under consideration, concerning 'our beliefs', and ask exactly what kind of religion are we trying to be, anyway?

It's worth praying and thinking hard about and by substituting, whatever label that we want to believe we are, with one or the other, "Predestinationist", or "Fatalist",

(or by 'trying' to call that something else?

Like, just straight up, flat out, "Arminianism"?

"Calvinism" is "Predestinationism".

"Predestinationist" and "Fatalist" are complete opposites and they are as hard, or impossible, to fall between, as "Calvinism" and "Arminianism".

And, then:
"Arminianism" is just plain old "Fatalism"?

Look and see, if The Lord allows you to sit still and read up on it...

1 Peter 5:8-9; "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

"Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world."

From: Fatalism

"The question which now arises for all Arminians and partial predestinarians to answer is, as the whole future is known to God, and therefore certain, therefore determined, by whom or by what has it been determined and rendered certain?

"The objector has ruled God out (as The Sovereign God of The Universe), let him bring forth his substitute.

"He has now dethroned the eternal Jehovah, will he leave the throne of the universe vacant, or whom will he place upon it?

(Alan's note: Whom will the Fatalist/ Arminians and partial predestinarians place upon the throne of the Universe?

I have to take a Biblically educated guess that it is the same deceiver that remains..., after God is 'removed' in any other arena, like Prayer in Schools and Creation, etc...

That would be Satan, then, behind 'evolution', etc., right?

People don't realize that when they choose to profess 'they came from a monkey' just so they can be 'independent'/ immoral 'apart from GOD'!

Then, what is left?

Only The DEVIL.

It is the same case with us adapting our own ideas for our 'religion', etc., apart from bowing to The Lordship of Jesus and His Word.

Satan is there to take over and pick up the pieces, fill their/ our head, with doctrine, organization, and practices, with 'irregular' nonsense and then to devour them, i.e., & us).

"He (the "Fatalist" and/or "Arminian") here places himself in a dilemma from which he cannot escape.

"He has on the one hand a vacant throne, and on the other an absolutely certain future.

"He has to account for a determined future, while his principles will not allow him to admit an Intelligent Personal Determiner.

"Here it can be easily seen that outside of God’s decrees as the determining cause, all must be attributed to the soulless, passionless, unintelligent idol, Fate.

(Behind which lurks? Satan himself).

“There are certain men crept in unawares,
who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.”
Jude 1:4.


excerpts from: Fatalism
by Elder H. M. Curry

"Fatalism as a doctrine, system of philosophy, or religious belief, originated among those nations of antiquity that knew not God; hence it is of purely heathen origin...

"Some came to the conclusion that there are no gods, and that all events come upon men inevitably by a blind destiny.

"This is original Fatalism...

"Fatalism in its various ramifications formed the prominent feature of all ancient literature except that of the Jews...

"The reason for this is that Moses and the prophets taught them that one supreme God ruled this universe...

"In Sophocles and some others of this time, the term fate became synonymous with the word 'chance'.

'"At first glance, it seems that these two words are directly opposite in meaning, but a little reflection will make it plain that 'chance' and Fatalism' or blind destiny are about the same thing after all...

"It will now be seen that Fatalism is first the belief that all things come inevitably upon the human race by blind destiny, with no God to send, direct, or avert them...

"Now, whoever saw anyone purporting to be an Old Baptist who believed any of the foregoing phases of doctrine?

"Who ever saw an Old Baptist who believed there is no God, and that all things come by a blind and necessary destiny; that all events are fortuitous or by chance?...

"Now, if anyone will consider the difference between events coming to pass that God Himself cannot hinder (Fatalism') but on the contrary
is bound to permit, suffer or endure, and events coming to pass as He Himself has ordained by His own determinate counsel (Predestination)
such a one can see the difference between Fatalism and Predestination;...

"Strange as it may seem, those very Arminians who are most vociferous in charging Old Baptists with Fatalism are really Fatalists themselves.

"It is true that they do not think so, but they think that the ground of this charge is far from them, but upon a very slight analysis of their doctrine it will appear most clearly that the sin justly lies at their door.

"One sentence from their daily teaching will establish the truth of this assertion.

"Do they not persistently proclaim that men go to hell against the will of God?

(note: the "Fatalist" and/or "Arminian "saying "God wants all men to repent and not perish, i.e., as is up next...)

"that God desires all men to be saved and has done all He can to save them, and yet men go to hell?

"that Christ made a full and complete atonement for the sins of all the world, and yet men go to perdition?

"If all this be true
what takes men to hell but fate?...

"Again, the Arminian rejects the decree of Election on the ground of the certainty of the result decreed, and at the same time admits the foreknowledge of God.

"Is not the result as certain by foreknowledge as by the decree of Election?

"There is nothing gained by denying the decree of Election and substituting for it 'divine foreknowledge'.

"This denial involves the objector in a greater difficulty than that which he sought to escape, and which he imagined was chargeable upon predestination alone.

"By rejecting the decree of Election, and admitting the foreknowledge of God, he has shut himself up to the dread alternative of blank Fatalism, which rules God out of the empire of human history, including even Divine Redemption...!

"The question which now arises for all Arminians and partial predestinarians to answer is, as the whole future is known to God, and therefore certain, therefore determined, by whom or by what has it been determined and rendered certain?

"The objector has ruled God out, let him bring forth his substitute.

"He has now dethroned the eternal Jehovah, will he leave the throne of the universe vacant, or whom will he place upon it?

"He here places himself in a dilemma from which he cannot escape.

"He has on the one hand a vacant throne and on the other an absolutely certain future.

"He has to account for a determined future, while his principles will not allow him to admit an Intelligent Personal Determiner.

"Here it can be easily seen that outside of God’s decrees as the determining cause, all must be attributed to the soulless, passionless, unintelligent idol, Fate..."

...and behind the scenes, actually by default, they are worshipping?

Antichrist and

"the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan",
Revelation 20:2.

 

[AustinC]

No, you just reject clear scripture. You actually should just try reading the scripture without your Calvinist glasses. But you will not do that so I will just continue to point your theological errors.

Now you know you speak falsely since you cannot find one post on the BB where I reject any of God's word. So, your repeated fib is the crutch you lean on to hold up your humanism
Second, I have repeatedly shown you your error in interpretation. Just recently you tried to interpret God's word without even a full sentence. When you do that, you show us all that you couldn't care less about the context of God's word. Instead, you attempt to cheapen God's word by forcing God to mean what you demand God to say. Your presupposition is that you are the most important person in your own salvation. You declare that you, yourself, must do the work of saving yourself and God, well, God is just an aid. God is like your physical therapist, but you, yourself, are the one doing all the work.
What is interesting is that you cannot imagine that your view is graceless. You cannot see that it is similar to Roman Catholic theology where justification is by works while God "graciously" aids you. You just can't let yourself die and have Christ live. (Galatians 2:20)

 

[Silverhair]

Now you know you speak falsely since you cannot find one post on the BB where I reject any of God's word. So, your repeated fib is the crutch you lean on to hold up your humanism
Second, I have repeatedly shown you your error in interpretation. Just recently you tried to interpret God's word without even a full sentence. When you do that, you show us all that you couldn't care less about the context of God's word. Instead, you attempt to cheapen God's word by forcing God to mean what you demand God to say. Your presupposition is that you are the most important person in your own salvation. You declare that you, yourself, must do the work of saving yourself and God, well, God is just an aid. God is like your physical therapist, but you, yourself, are the one doing all the work.
What is interesting is that you cannot imagine that your view is graceless. You cannot see that it is similar to Roman Catholic theology where justification is by works while God "graciously" aids you. You just can't let yourself die and have Christ live. (Galatians 2:20)

I will say one thing for you Austin, you are consistent. I post scripture and you deny it but you never deal with it and show where it is wrong but you do attack the person.

I chuckled at your comment "I have repeatedly shown you your error in interpretation." I just posted scripture to point out your error in what you had said. When scripture contradicts what you say I do not have to interpret the scriptures. Here is an example of where you fail to understand scripture:
AustinC said: ↑
We hear God after being made alive, which is precisely when we are given the faith to believe and be justified.

The bible says this
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You misinterpret scripture by reading it through your Calvinist theology. But you do not stop there do you, then you add your own little twist to the bible text. Sad really, you struggle way to hard to support your fail philosophy.

 

[Alan Gross]

Now you know you speak falsely since you cannot find one post on the BB where I reject any of God's word. So, your repeated fib is the crutch you lean on to hold up your humanism

Second, I have repeatedly shown you your error in interpretation. Just recently you tried to interpret God's word without even a full sentence. When you do that, you show us all that you couldn't care less about the context of God's word. Instead, you attempt to cheapen God's word by forcing God to mean what you demand God to say.

Your presupposition is that you are the most important person in your own salvation. You declare that you, yourself, must do the work of saving yourself and God, well, God is just an aid. God is like your physical therapist, but you, yourself, are the one doing all the work.

What is interesting is that you cannot imagine that your view is graceless. You cannot see that it is similar to Roman Catholic theology where justification is by works while God "graciously" aids you.

"Works" isn't Christianity.

The RCC isn't either...because of that and a thousand other things.

God has to save their folks, IN SPITE of what they teach.

What if a person, though, actually does BELIEVE WHAT THEY TEACH? HORROR.

That would not be good, at all.

...

YESTERDAY, I had 90 or so alerts
about replies I had received, starting with 32 in the morning.

But, if I clicked on the flag in my account, it said, "You have no new alerts"!

What happened? They just disappeared.

Funny how that happens!

HARMONY!

No bunch of the rehash you and I and our forefathers have been asked and answered thousands of times, probably.

Post something from them if you want me to respond with a bombardment of C&P from secondary sources, if you want me to! lol

I can't be bored; I mean I can't see them.

By The Absolute Sovereignty of God (O.P., you know!)

 

[AustinC]

I will say one thing for you Austin, you are consistent. I post scripture and you deny it but you never deal with it and show where it is wrong but you do attack the person.

I chuckled at your comment "I have repeatedly shown you your error in interpretation." I just posted scripture to point out your error in what you had said. When scripture contradicts what you say I do not have to interpret the scriptures. Here is an example of where you fail to understand scripture:
AustinC said: ↑
We hear God after being made alive, which is precisely when we are given the faith to believe and be justified.

The bible says this
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You misinterpret scripture by reading it through your Calvinist theology. But you do not stop there do you, then you add your own little twist to the bible text. Sad really, you struggle way to hard to support your fail philosophy.

At what point do you think you will speak honestly?
So, when you find me denying God's word in the BB, then post my specific denial. If you cannot, then every reader will know your falsehood.

 

[Silverhair]

At what point do you think you will speak honestly?
So, when you find me denying God's word in the BB, then post my specific denial. If you cannot, then every reader will know your falsehood.

If you do not see your denial when scripture is placed beside your fanciful interpretation then that just shows how lost you are. You continue to follow the pagan ideas that Augustine brought into the church and hold those ideas as superior to the word of God. I have pointed this out to you more than once but you ignore this truth.

Be honest with yourself and spend some time checking out the history of your theology, but I am quite sure that you will not do that but rather will just attack the messenger.

 

[Silverhair]

At what point do you think you will speak honestly?
So, when you find me denying God's word in the BB, then post my specific denial. If you cannot, then every reader will know your falsehood.

You just proved my point by ignoring the scripture I posted as compared to your words.

AustinC said: ↑
We hear God after being made alive, which is precisely when we are given the faith to believe and be justified.

The bible says this
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The words are right in front of you Austin and you ignore them.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.

Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

Scripture shows you that your theology is wrong and yet you deny scripture and hold to the pagan ideas that Augustine and Calvin inserted into the church.

 

[Alan Gross]

At what point do you think you will speak honestly?
So, when you find me denying God's word in the BB, then post my specific denial. If you cannot, then every reader will know your falsehood.

If I remember right, some folks have actually told me,
when I pushed them on it, that "dead" means "alive".

So, maybe it was sometime when you said,
"ye hath He Quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins"
and meant what you said.

By saying "dead" meant "dead" that may seem to them
as a denial of the Word by some
(who've already changed the Bible(?) to say,
"dead" means "alive"(???)

(and imagines that it expresses
"alive if you feel like it, to go ahead
and "quickening yourself" to Eternal Life",(with no Regeneration),
as in Ephesians 2; that's not going to happen,
so it's sad and tragic for them).

You have to watch 'em close, as you know.

And, they'll fight you like a Banty Rooster
over something like that, in the Word,
instead of being anything like having a "teachable Spirit"(???)

...

There is a thing you probably heard about where some people
try to make Total Depravity = Not Total Inability.

Or TRY TO MAKE Total Inability = Total Ability, in other words.

Just as some have made "dead" equal "alive",
in their heart and mind, with a typically devious altering of the text,
which could be Eternally Fatal!

WHY ALTER THE TEXT
TO TRY TO MAKE IT EXPRESS THE OPPOSITE?

WHO IS BEHIND ALL THIS Pretty,
seriously jaded, or worse, STUFF?

Goofy funny, if not so serious.

Like a dead rock calls your Pastor and says, "help I'm a rock".

So, the pastor says, "maybe we can go fund you some College tuition,
through CashAp, or better yet, we might need to throw you into a cage at the zoo, first,
in case you decide to become a monkey...." (???)

I know it doesn't make any sense.

...

Total Depravity = Not Total Inability is a hard-care false religion,
as all of the "Free-Willers" ASSUME they are not.

Man can Free-Will all he wants, but he is bound by his sinful Nature,
to not be able to bridge the gap between him
and the Trice-Holy Almighty God, as you also know.

Law.

Sin.

Just like water is free to shoot straight uphill all-day
and flow over the other side of the mountain,
in a nice waterfall over there.

But, it just doesn't and can't happen.

Law.

Gravity.

I'd like to see Free-Willers deal with sin, or at least mention it,
so the Holy Spirit can USE THE WORD of GOD to CONVICT of sin
oh, and PREACH THE GOSPEL of Jesus Christ's Work for Eternal Redemption on the cross,
for that sin, too.

And, Throwing a little Conviction and Repentance
and Faith in there, given, in the REGENERATION Process
of The New Birth
would also be infinitely nice.

Did their personal sin nail Jesus to the cross
and cause His death or not?

I wonder if any of the Free-Willers OR THEIR AUDIENCE know
they are engendering people OR ARE THE PEOPLE that they want
to "believe" without Regeneration,
or "have faith" without Regeneration,
or "sign a decision Card",
or "pray a prayer/ repeat after me" without Regeneration,
or "open a non-existent door" without Regeneration, etc., etc.

Is it all about money? and numbers? God help us.

I wonder, wonder, wonder, who is going to reach these people
before it is too late for them.

Again, IF THEY REALLY BELIEVE WHAT THEY ARE TAUGHT,
There is NO GOD LIKE THAT.

The only thing I have to claim as a Baptist
for anyone to listen to what I have to say, from God's Word,
is my loyalty to The Lordship of Jesus.

And, Jesus said, "You Must Be Born Again".

 

[AustinC]

If you do not see your denial when scripture is placed beside your fanciful interpretation then that just shows how lost you are. You continue to follow the pagan ideas that Augustine brought into the church and hold those ideas as superior to the word of God. I have pointed this out to you more than once but you ignore this truth.

Be honest with yourself and spend some time checking out the history of your theology, but I am quite sure that you will not do that but rather will just attack the messenger.

You just proved my point by ignoring the scripture I posted as compared to your words.

AustinC said: ↑
We hear God after being made alive, which is precisely when we are given the faith to believe and be justified.

The bible says this
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The words are right in front of you Austin and you ignore them.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.

Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

Scripture shows you that your theology is wrong and yet you deny scripture and hold to the pagan ideas that Augustine and Calvin inserted into the church.

How do I prove your point when I have already answered these verses and I give all glory to God who is the cause of whoever believes?
The core of everything we are discussing goes back to these verses:
*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have
been saved—

You continually leave God out of this verse and replace God with your own name.

For you, as you have stated, God is merely a gracious "aid" to you as you save yourself.

 

[Alan Gross]

How do I prove your point when I have already answered these verses and I give all glory to God who is the cause of whoever believes?
The core of everything we are discussing goes back to these verses:
*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have
been saved—

You continually leave God out of this verse and replace God with your own name.

For you, as you have stated, God is merely a gracious "aid" to you as you save yourself.

Free Will from The 1677/89 LBCF;

3. Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost (d) all ability of Will, to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, (e) and dead in Sin, is not able, by his own strength, to (f) convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.

d Rom. 5.6. ch. 8.7.

e Eph. 2.1.5.

f Tit. 3 3,4,5. Joh. 6.44.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of Grace (g) he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone, enables him (h) freely to will, and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his (i) remaining corruptions he doth not perfectly nor only will that which is good; but doth also will that which is evil.

g Col. 1.13. Joh. 8.36.

h Phil. 2.13.

i Rom. 7.15.18,19 21.23.

 

[Silverhair]

How do I prove your point when I have already answered these verses and I give all glory to God who is the cause of whoever believes?
The core of everything we are discussing goes back to these verses:
*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have
been saved—

You continually leave God out of this verse and replace God with your own name.

For you, as you have stated, God is merely a gracious "aid" to you as you save yourself.

Funny how you jump to this two verses and deny everything else.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Righteousness of God Through Faith
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Your errant theology has blinded you to the truth. So when you asked me to show where you have denied the scriptures I provided these verses and you just turned around and deny these verses. You are actually beyond help.

 

[Alan Gross]

Chapter V
The Doctrine of Divine Decrees
By James P. Boyce

1. "A Reasonable Doctrine.

"This is, first of all a reasonable doctrine in itself.

"If one can divest himself in his thought of the supposed hard conclusions that follow from the doctrine, he must see that[p. 106]
it is reasonable.

"For if God is really the eternal, all-wise, omnipotent ruler of the universe, he assuredly has had a plan concerning his universe.

"If he is really omniscient he must have known everything that would come to pass. It is not possible that God could have been surprised by anything that has over occurred.

"But if he foreknew that everything would come to pass, and did not in any wise interpose to prevent, then he must at least have purposed to permit those things to come to pass.

"And so there is absolutely no rational way by which anything can be thought of as not coming at least permissively under God's decrees.

"[This rational view is greatly strengthened when we remember that God is not simply a spectator of the universe, foreknowing what will happen, but its actual ruler, and that he upholds all things by his power, and that absolutely nothing can happen independently of him.

"If everything that exists draws its existence and its support from God, and is able to act only by reason of the fact that God upholds it in its acting, how can it be that anything has ever come to pass without some kind of purpose on God's part concerning it?

"The difficulty, from a rational point of view, is not in accepting the doctrine that everything that ever comes to pass has been always in God's plan.

"The real difficulty is to see how anything, even sin, has come to pass without God's having been responsible for it.

"This difficulty will be solved if we ever understand fully the nature of God's rational creatures[p. 107]
and the element of freedom and responsibility which God has lodged in them.

"But meantime there is no difficulty, from a rational point of view, in holding that the plan, or purpose, of God includes all things whatsoever that come to pass.

"This seems to be the only reasonable conclusion.]"

 

[AustinC]

Funny how you jump to this two verses and deny everything else.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Righteousness of God Through Faith
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Your errant theology has blinded you to the truth. So when you asked me to show where you have denied the scriptures I provided these verses and you just turned around and deny these verses. You are actually beyond help.

I have already addressed your verses on multiple posts, so it's clear I don't deny scripture. Moreso, unlike you, I have addressed these verses head on while you literally ignore Ephesians 2:4-5.

 

[Silverhair]

I have already addressed your verses on multiple posts, so it's clear I don't deny scripture. Moreso, unlike you, I have addressed these verses head on while you literally ignore Ephesians 2:4-5.

Only in your mind. You seem to think that what you say is of more valve than what the Holy Spirit says. Your continued denial of clear scripture just proves that you are not concerned with what the bible says. You just need everyone to trust what you say.

As said before you are beyond help. As long as you continue to fool yourself by holding to the pagan philosophy that Augustine brought into the church you will not find the truth.

So I will continue to point out your errors so others do not succumb to them same errant views that you have.

 

[Alan Gross]

Chapter V
The Doctrine of Divine Decrees
By James P. Boyce

"II. Proof that this Doctrine is True.

"But for the fact that this Doctrine seems to lead to certain consequences that are hard to explain or receive, it would very likely not have been called in question, or at least would not have been so violently opposed.

"The difficulties connected with it, however, and the opposition to it make it necessary to marshal with special clearness and force the proof in favor of it.

"2. God's Sovereign Decrees are Sustained by the Scriptures.

"This Doctrine of God's Sovereign Decrees
is not only a reasonable doctrine,
it has also the clear support of the Scriptures.

(see: The Sovereignty of God is Absolute and a Reasonable Doctrine),

"This scriptural authority for the doctrine will appear from the following statements and references,
gathered with slight modifications from Hodge's "Outlines," pp. 205-213:

"(1) God's Sovereign Decrees are Eternal:

Acts 15:18; "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world."

Ephesians 1:4; 3:11; "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love",

"According to the Eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord".

1 Peter 1:20; "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you".

2 Thessalonians 2:13; "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning Chosen you to Salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

2 Timothy 2:19; "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the Name of Christ depart from iniquity."

1 Corinthians 2:7; "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory".

"(2) God's Sovereign Decrees are Immutable:

Psalm 33:11; "The Counsel of the LORD standeth forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations."

Isaiah 46:9; "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me."

"(3) God's Sovereign Decrees comprehend all events.

"a. The Scriptures assert this of the whole system in general embraced in God's Sovereign Decrees:

Daniel 4:34, 35; "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the Most High, and I praised and honored Him that liveth forever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?"

Acts 17:26; "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;"

Ephesians 1:11; "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being Predestinated according to the Purpose of Him Who worketh all things after the Counsel of His Own will:"

"b. God's Sovereign Decrees affirm the same fortuitous events:

Proverbs 16:33; "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."

Matthew 10:29, 30; "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered."

"c. Also of the free actions of men;

Ephesians 2:10, 11; "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

11 "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;"

Philippians 2:3; "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves."

"d. Even the wicked actions of men:

Acts 2:23; "Him, being delivered by the Determinate Counsel and Foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"

4:27, 28; "For of a truth against thy Holy child Jesus, whom Thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 "For to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy Counsel Determined before to be done."

13:29; "And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took Him down from the tree, and laid Him in a sepulchre.

30 "But God raised Him from the dead:"

1 Peter 2:8; "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

Jude 4; "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the Grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Revelation 17:17; "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

"As to the history of Joseph, compare

Genesis 37:28; "Then there passed by Midianites merchantmen, and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt."

with Genesis 45:7, 8; "And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance."

8 "So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and He hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt."

and Genesis 50:20; "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save many people alive."

See also Psalm 17:13, 14; "Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:

14 "From men which are Thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly Thou fillest with Thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes."

Isaiah 10:5, 15; "O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation."

15 "Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood."

con't

 

[Alan Gross]

Divine Providence

1. God the good Creator of all things, in his infinite power, and wisdom, doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all Creatures, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, to the end for the which they were Created; according unto his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable Counsel of his own will; to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness and mercy.

from: Chapter V
The Doctrine of Divine Decrees
By James P. Boyce

"(4) The Decrees of God are not conditional:

Psalm 33:11; "The Counsel of the LORD standeth forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations."

Proverbs 19:21; "There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the Counsel of the LORD, that shall stand."

Isaiah 14:24, 27; "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:",

"For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?"

46:10; "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My Counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure:"

Romans 9:11; "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to Election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth"

"(5) The Decrees of God are Sovereign:

Isaiah 40:13, 14; "Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being His counselor hath taught Him?

14 "With whom took He Counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of judgment, and taught Him knowledge, and showed to Him the way of understanding?"

Daniel 4:35; "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Matthew 11:25, 26; "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

26 "Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight."

Romans 9:11; "For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the Gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;"

15 "So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto Salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"


Ephesians 1:5, 11; "Having Predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,",

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being Predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the Counsel of his own will:"

[p. 108]

"(6) God's Sovereign Decrees include the means:

Ephesians 1:4; "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

2 Thessalonians 2:13; "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to Salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

1 Peter 1:2; "Elect according to the Foreknowledge of God the Father, through Sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

"(7) God's Sovereign Decrees determine the free actions of men:

Acts 4:27, 28; "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy Counsel determined before to be done."

Ephesians 2:10; "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

"(8) God Himself works in His people that faith and obedience which are called the conditions of salvation:

Ephesians 2:8; "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God";

Philippians 2:13; "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

2 Timothy 2:25; "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth."

"(9) God's Sovereign Decrees render the event certain:

Matthew 16:21; "From that time forth began Jesus to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day."

Luke 18:31-33; "Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 "For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 "And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again."

24:46; "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:"

Acts 2:23; "Him, being delivered by the Determinate Counsel and Foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"

13:29; "And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre."

1 Corinthians 11:19; "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

"(10) While God has Sovereignly Decreed the free acts of men, the actors have been nonetheless responsible:

Genesis 50:20; "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save many people alive."

Acts 2:23; "Him, being delivered by the Determinate Counsel and Foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"

3:18; "But those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."

4:27, 28; "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy Counsel Determined before to be done."