The Sovereignty of God is Absolute

[Silverhair]

Oh, I understand that you are apparently a Pelagian. However, your rants against the Biblical teaching of the total absolute sovereignty of God seem to be rather incoherent.

Your total absolute sovereignty of God view is not biblical. The lack of logic behind that view is astounding. You want God to be in total control but actually not in total control. Ken you have some serious logic problems. I find it amazing that when the error of your position is pointed out to Calvinist's they resort to false accusations which in my case is calling me a humanist or a pelagian.

 

[KenH]

Your total absolute sovereignty of God view is not biblical.

Yes, it is Biblical. it is your Pelagian view of salvation is that is unBiblical.

You want God to be in total control but actually not in total control.

Your sentence is nonsensical as it is based on a straw man of your own imagination.

Ken you have some serious logic problems.

Silverhair, you have some serious spiritual problems.

 

[Silverhair]

This is why I try to avoid interacting with you on this board, @Silverhair. You slip slide around and are not an honorable debater.

Ken what would you like me to say? Since you think I did not answer you then I will let you make up whatever answer you think will make you happy.

Did I disagree and say that God could not tell satan what to do, NO. But you have taken His sovereign authority and turned it into absolute control and then you complain that we do not understand Calvinism when we point out the logical end of your theology. Ken you do not debate, you want everyone to just bow at your feet and praise you for your insight into the word of God. Not going to happen.

 

[KenH]

you want everyone to just bow at your feet and praise you

 

[AustinC]

Calvinists want God to control/determine/appoint all things which would include even what the devil and evil men do but then you say that God is not responsible because in your confession you now change your mind and claim that your all determining God is no longer the all determining God.

Humanists want God to serve them and be beneath them as they rule their lives and treat God as if he were their personal cupbearer.

 

[AustinC]

Your reply just prove once again that you do not read a post. You are running away from the truth regarding the foundation of your Calvinist theology. You are afraid to look at the truth and you once again attack the messenger.

Augustine was the one that brought pagan philosophy into the church and you seem quite willing to follow his lead so your comments are in line with your views not mine. Do you not hold to the same ideas that the pagans did?

You are amazingly close minded.

Valentinus, a Gnostic, taught god offered the message of salvation to every human equally; however,only the predetermined elect were empowered by god to accept that invitation.
The Gnostic god must regenerate a person before that person is able to believe. Hippolytus, Haer 5.14.1
Like Plotinus taught, Manichacism {a Gnostic philosophy} also taught free will was totally lost after humanity's fall.

Do you not ascribe to these views Austin? You have stated them many times as truth. So who holds to pagan ideas, here is a hit it's not me.

I ascribe to God's word and His declared Sovereignty and rule over all His creation.
*Ephesians 2:1-10*
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Sliverhair, if you do not submit under the hand of God and repent, you will receive the exact treatment given to the Church in Laodicea. You should be shaken to your core, but instead, you speak like the ungodly ones in Revelation. I point you to turn to Christ Jesus and bow yourself under His rule and reign. It is not too late.

 

[AustinC]

I would be curious as to how the average Calvinist can not see the contradictions in your confessions. You want God to have total absolute sovereignty but then have man responsible for any sin that he commits. But then again you don't even think this God who has total absolute sovereignty can allow man to have a free will. So much for His total absolute sovereignty.

The games Calvinist play is astounding.

Your ignorance of Romans 9 is on display.

 

[AustinC]

God is sovereign but you for some reason do not actually want God to be sovereign. You need God to micromanage all things then complain when the reality of your view is pointed out to you. Your view makes God the soul cause of everything which would logically include man's sin.

God is sovereign and in His sovereignty He has given man a real free will and thus man is responsible for the choices they make. Free will means man can actually choose to trust in or reject salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

*Daniel 11:27,29*
And as for the two kings, their hearts shall be bent on doing evil. They shall speak lies at the same table, but to no avail, for the end is yet to be at the time appointed.

“At the time appointed he shall return and come into the south, but it shall not be this time as it was before.

It is a foolish person who imagines God is not guiding everything according to His will.

 

[AustinC]

Neither. and ultimately...Nothing causes it.

...
Nothing "causes" a man to believe. At least, in the sense that you mean it.

Believe that if you wish, but your view is entirely ignorant of God's holy word.
*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

There is your cause. Believe it or not...

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, it is Biblical. it is your Pelagian view of salvation is that is unBiblical.



Your sentence is nonsensical as it is based on a straw man of your own imagination.



Silverhair, you have some serious spiritual problems.

You are in denial Ken.

 

[Silverhair]

*Daniel 11:27,29*
And as for the two kings, their hearts shall be bent on doing evil. They shall speak lies at the same table, but to no avail, for the end is yet to be at the time appointed.

“At the time appointed he shall return and come into the south, but it shall not be this time as it was before.

It is a foolish person who imagines God is not guiding everything according to His will.

It is a foolish person that, like you Austin, that actually denies God His sovereignty.

 

[KenH]

You are in denial Ken.

Other than a few minutes on the soil of the Bahamas, I have not been on foreign soil, much less the Nile.

 

[KenH]

It is a foolish person that, like you Ken, that actually denies God His sovereignty.

 

[KenH]

There is your cause. Believe it or not...

Conditionalists have a need to claim at least some credit for their salvation so that they can glory in their "wisdom" compared to others who are not as "wise" in their sight. They are like the Pharisee in the story about the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18:10-14.

 

[Salty]

Six hour notice:
This thread will be closed no sooner than:

2330 GMT - 630 PM EDT - 330 PM PDT

 

[Alan Gross]

Conditionalists have a need to claim at least some credit for their salvation so that they can glory in their "wisdom" compared to others who are not as "wise" in their sight. They are like the Pharisee in the story about the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18:10-14.

Like? "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." Matthew 11:25.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Believe that if you wish

In your view, I believe that if I am caused to. You forgot your own Calvinism there for a second. Don't worry it happens constantly.

*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

This says absolutely nothing about the topic whatsoever. Neither for, or against, your view.

There is your cause.

It mentions nothing about cause. It doesn't use the word or any synonym. As far as the question you pose it is equally consistent with Silverhair's Theology or yours.

Believe it or not...

I do not.

 

[AustinC]

In your view, I believe that if I am caused to. You forgot your own Calvinism there for a second. Don't worry it happens constantly.

This says absolutely nothing about the topic whatsoever. Neither for, or against, your view.

It mentions nothing about cause. It doesn't use the word or any synonym. As far as the question you pose it is equally consistent with Silverhair's Theology or yours.

I do not.

You are living in denial.
Dead people don't choose God. Ephesians 2:4-5 tells you exactly how you were saved.
"But God, while you were still dead, made you alive, by grace you were saved."

It seems you cannot accept this truth regarding God doing what you could not do.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

You are living in denial.
Dead people don't choose God. Ephesians 2:4-5 tells you exactly how you were saved.
"But God, while you were still dead, made you alive, by grace you were saved."

It seems you cannot accept this truth regarding God doing what you could not do.

Dead people don't sin either.
This argument from Calvinists always proves too much.

I get it, you thought your false dichotomy was an insuperable challenge no one could respond to.
You're going to defend it even if you have to keep quoting a verse irrelevant to the topic which says nothing whatsoever about it.

This is a choice you will make; probably numerous times.

That choice is a genuine one and was unlikely to have been necessitated by God's decree, nor any preexisting circumstances in your person or events surrounding it.
I'm sorry if you don't like it.
Atheists thought the Euthyphro dilemma was an insurmountable obstacle for centuries.
It has been exposed as a false dichotomy (as is your question).

Many of them have gotten used to the disappointment and have accepted this fact. You might do well to follow their lead.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Proverbs 21:30. There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.
Why not? Because He is sovereign in all things.