KenH
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.
1 Timothy 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
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The Sovereignty of God is Absolute
- Thread starter KenH
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Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.
1 Timothy 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
I know the passages:
They demonstrate what I said. At least I Tim 5:6 does, (again Eph. 2:1 is irrelevant here)
You guys try to make that poor verse do 95% of your heavy lifting don't you?
"Dead" in the sense that Calvinists NEED it to be understood (in the sense of incapable of hearing, incapable of responding to God, cannot choose God etc etc ad nauseum) leaves no room for a verse like I Tim 5:6 to make any sense.
Calvinists NEED (or at least think they do, Spurgeon didn't) regeneration before faith.
Their perceived need to take dead to always be taken to such an extreme would mean that same person could not sin.
My point (which you were kind enough to provide Biblical evidence for) is that "dead" people
DO SIN!
Hence, the Calvinist view of what "death" means is false, and proves too much.
I thank you for the Biblical support of my contention.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
These must be quite lively dead people Austin.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
In these verses dead in sin refers to spiritual separation from God. But even then one can trust the gospel message and turn to God for salvation.
By Grace Through Faith
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
You just do not want to believe the bible so you hold to your errant theology.
Exactly Silverhair!
these "dead" people are
walking, indulging, and (my favourite in vs. 3) LIVING!
But according to the Calvinist a "dead" man can do basically nothing.
these "dead" people are
walking, indulging, and (my favourite in vs. 3) LIVING!
But according to the Calvinist a "dead" man can do basically nothing.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Exactly Silverhair!
these "dead" people are
walking, indulging, and (my favourite in vs. 3) LIVING!
But according to the Calvinist a "dead" man can do basically nothing.
I have found they are quite selective of the scripture they like.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
The Sovereignty of God is Absolute.
The Decrees of God may be defined as that purpose or plan by which eternally and within himself, God determines all things whatsoever that come to pass.
God's Degrees have:
"3. Embraced All Things That Should Come To Pass.
"It is as the result of God's Eternal Plan, or purpose, that things come to pass. According to this doctrine of decrees, God assumes a certain responsibility for the universe. This, as we shall see, is the most difficult feature in the doctrine.
"Nevertheless we cannot hold to any real doctrine of decrees and deny this feature. We should, however, make a distinction at this point.
"When we say that God
determines whatever comes to pass, we should distinguish between an efficacious determination and a permissive determination.
"Some of the things which come to pass are the outcome of an efficacious decree on the part of God, that is, they come to pass because God determined not only that they might come to pass, but that He Himself would bring them to pass.
"As to these things God, in decreeing them, took upon Himself the responsibility of their coming to pass.
"There are other events, however, which may be truly said to have been in the decrees of God, and yet God repudiates responsibility for their ever coming to pass.
"His decree concerning these is a permissive decree.
"These things were in His plan or purpose as truly as the others.
"But the purpose as to these was a purpose to permit and not to effect.
"God did not simply foreknow these events. He actually made a place for them in His plan. In a true sense He intended them to occur.
"But He did not intend to bring them about.
"Such, for example, is the entrance of sin;
"such also are all sinful acts that have ever occurred.
(Alan's note: " by the Determinant Counsel and Foreknowledge of God.")
"This distinction between efficacious and permissive decrees may not be altogether satisfactory.
"It may be difficult for us to see how God could plan to take sin in and not be Himself responsible.
"But some such distinction we are bound to hold. For it is clear that God has not taken all events into His plan in just the same way and with the same sort of purpose or decree.
"In one or the other of these ways, however, God has decreed all things whatsoever that come to pass,
"not some things only, but all things;
"not all things in general, but each thing in particular.
"It is useless, we repeat, to try to evade this conclusion if we hold to any real doctrine of a plan, or purpose, on God's part concerning the universe which He has created.
"For so interwoven are the events of the universe that a lack of purpose as to any one event would involve a lack of purpose as to a multitude of others,
"also indeed as to every other event in any wise connected with the one not purposed.
"Events do not happen without sufficient cause or causes.
(Alan's note: such as God causing the opening of the heart of Lydia in saving her soul, as He had Planned from Eternity Past and as He does to all of His Elect.)
"If, therefore, a particular event is purposed, then the antecedent event or events which caused that particular event must have been purposed also.
"And if any particular event was not purposed, then the antecedent event or events that caused this particular event were not purposed either.
"To such an extent is the force of this realized that it is admitted by all that in the mechanical universe, and even in the control of the lower animals, everything that comes to pass is purposed, or decreed.
"But the free agency of man, and of other rational and moral agents, is supposed to (and assumed to) prevent God's purposing, or willing, all things with reference to them.
It is said (and assumed) that such purposing would take away that free agency and consequent responsibility.
"The Scriptures, however, recognize the sovereignty of God and His control of man, and also the free agency and accountability of man.
"Consciousness also assures us of the latter.
"The Nature of God, as has just been shown, proves the former.
"The Bible makes no attempt to reconcile the two.
"Paul even declines to discuss the subject, saying, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?" (Romans 9:20.)
"The two facts are plainly revealed.
"They cannot be contradictory, they must be reconcilable.
"That we cannot point out the harmony between them is a proof only of our ignorance and limited capacity, and not that both are not true.
"It is certain, however, that whatever may be the influences which God exercises or permits to secure the fulfillment of His purposes, He always acts in accordance with the Nature, and especially with the laws of mind that He has bestowed upon man.
"It is equally true that His action is in full accord with that Justice and Benevolence which are such essential attributes of God Himself."
"Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." Psalm 85:10.
"Having Predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will," Ephesians 1:5.
"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our sins, according to the riches of His Grace", Ephesians 1:7
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KenH
Well-Known Member
KenH
Well-Known Member
Your argument is no more accurate than this little kid's jump. But that is what your argument is - like something for a kiddie pool.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Exactly Silverhair!
these "dead" people are
walking, indulging, and (my favourite in vs. 3) LIVING!
But according to the Calvinist a "dead" man can do basically nothing.
You show by your post that you don't even understand the meaning of "dead" in a Biblically theological sense.
Well, Silverhair, I note the deep Theological insights expressed and the depth of maturity displayed by your interlocutors here.
I especially like the Shakespearian rejoinder to you in post 148.
The apostle Paul could do no better.
Presumably, you will immediately concede the truth of the argument presented there and repent of your heresies.
(If you are exhaustively fore-ordained to of course).
I especially like the Shakespearian rejoinder to you in post 148.
The apostle Paul could do no better.
Presumably, you will immediately concede the truth of the argument presented there and repent of your heresies.
(If you are exhaustively fore-ordained to of course).
KenH
Well-Known Member
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
The only sense that they are using for the word "dead", in Ephesians 2, is for a person to "HAVE BEEN LIVING", in a way that they were sinning, which would eventually lead to them being physically "dead".
We would see it said like this, adding the red and editing, a little bit;
"1 "And you hath he quickened, who were LIVING in trespasses and sins;
2 "Wherein in time past ye LIVED and walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past LIVING in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind...", etc., etc.
So, God had to Quicken and Make Alive someone who was already LIVING.
They just needed to get straightened up and be quickened on to a new course of LIVING right...for once.
So, those who "HAD BEEN LIVING" and walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,... therefore, HAD BEEN "LIVING" in trespasses and sins;
AND, ..."the wages of sin is death".
Can't do that, right?
Fortunately, God has brought them away from that LIFESTYLE and BEHAVIOR, for them to not continue LIVING in trespasses and other, "BAD BEHAVIORS".
If you are waiting to hear something 'theological' about their understanding, to give us the vital importance of the word, "dead", it might be a while.
They make "dead" = "alive" (anytime you feel like it).
That's how you 'swallow a camel'.
Granted, this is very foreign to us, not to mention God's Word.
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God says dead, in trespasses and sins. I believe God.Exactly Silverhair!
these "dead" people are
walking, indulging, and (my favourite in vs. 3) LIVING!
But according to the Calvinist a "dead" man can do basically nothing.
God also says that before He saved us we were slaves to Sin.
In both cases, there is no freedom.
If you wish to equate this to something in today's culture then think of zombies as an image you can wrap your mind around. Dead, yet functioning. Functioning, yet enslaved to a demonic power.
This is the idea that Paul is conveying when he says that all of us once lived in that state.
Of course, the verses you two hate are Ephesians 2:4-5, which inform you that God, and God alone, chose to make you alive, even when you were dead, and save you by His grace alone.
Apparently your humanist pride just cannot accept what God is telling you.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I think Kenny that you need to take a remedial read class. You obviously do not understand the meaning of "dead" in a Biblically theological sense.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Those spiritually dead in the bible are able to respond to God. Our sin causes a separation between us and God. Isaiah 59.2 "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God..." Have you forgotten Adam & Eve, they died when that ate the fruit in the garden {Genesis 3:6} yet they were still living and able to hear and respond to the voice of God. Fallen man can still hear and respond because God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion.
As Paul said in Romans 1:16 "I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" and he could say that because "...faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." Romans 10:17
Christ himself told us how we could be saved: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life." John 3:14-15
And He even told us why: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:16-17
And then He even told us the condition that must be met by us our salvation: "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18
And the Holy Spirit via Paul has told us what the desire of God is for His creation: "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4
So since God tells us what His desire is and also the means of how we can come to Him for salvation it is on the Calvinist's that the burden of proof rests. They must make the case for total inability.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Please do not call me "Kenny". I am not a "Kenny". You may call me Ken or Kenneth. Thank you.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
God's Sovereignty in Regeneration
is Absolute.
"The work of regeneration is effected by two distinct efficient causes,
"...the Holy Spirit
"...and the blood of Christ.
Regeneration
By A. P. Williams, D.D.
"The term "regeneration" is used but twice in the New Testament: By the Saviour in Matthew 19:28.
"Ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
"And by Paul in Titus 3:5. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
"In the former of these examples it is difficult to tell precisely to what the term alludes.
"According to the punctuation in our version, it alludes to the renewing of the heavens and the earth at the coming of the day of God. But there are some who think that the comma should not be after the word "me," but after the word "regeneration," believing that the Saviour expressed by the term something in which the persons addressed already had followed him.
"I incline to the sense the punctuation gives it. If this is its sense, then the term cannot be confined to the very first act in the process of the renewal of the heavens and the earth; it must take into its meaning the whole process. When the work of regeneration is done the new heavens and the new earth stand out complete.
"In the latter passage the context sheds no light upon the meaning of the word.
Paul simply states that God saves us "by the washing of regeneration;" but we are left to study the meaning of the word from its own grammatical import.
Regeneration is a compound word, made up of the word "generation" and the prefix "re."
The word "generation" is expressive of the work of producing[p. 89]
or giving existence to a thing.
Hence, regeneration must signify the reproducing of a thing. This leads us back to the contemplation of the thing first produced.
In other words, it leads us back to the contemplation of the man as he came from the hands of his Maker.
Well, the testimony of the Bible on this subject is, "God made man upright." (Ecclesiastes 7:29.) Hence, God produced man, in common with everything else which he made, "very good." (Genesis 1:31.)
We view man then, as he came from the hands of his Maker, as a holy being innocent in life and pure in heart.
But man fell.
In his fall he experienced an internal as well as an external change, and the internal preceded the external, the heart and the life both became corrupt.
Therefore, while the Bible so abundantly testifies that man's "way is perverse before God," it as abundantly testifies to the corruption of the heart.
Of man, as he was before the flood, it says: "Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5.)
Of man, since the flood, it says: "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." (Jeremiah 17:9.)
It is in consequence of this that man is said to be "dead in trespasses and sins."
With respect to the heart he is destitute of love, therefore of life; for love is life (1 John 3:14, 15).
His mind is carnal, enmity to God, this enmity is identical with death (Romans 8:6).
With respect to his life, he is dead in law; for it is written, "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of[p. 90]
the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10.)
As a condemned criminal he is bound over to death, and is obnoxious to the "wrath to come."
Hence, in his regeneration, man is made alive in every respect in which he can be said to be dead.
He is made alive with respect to his heart when the love of God is shed abroad therein by the Holy Ghost. (Romans 5:5.)
Hence John says, "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren."
He is made alive in law when the sentence of condemnation is revoked. The Apostle says: "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature;" of course, then, regenerated; but "there is no condemnation to them who are in Christ." (Romans 1:8.)
I do not see anything in the Scriptures that will justify us in regarding any one as regenerated who is still in his sins and under condemnation.
When the work of regeneration is finished the "new man" must stand out before us, and we must be able to say of the sinner, "he was dead but is alive again."
Hence I am inclined to the belief that regeneration includes all that God does for us in making us his children. If it does, then it includes more than the mere beginning of the work more than the mere vitalizing of the affections.
It includes also our deliverance from the wrath to come. The whole work is expressed in the following passages of Holy Writ: "I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts. * * * I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31:33, 34.)[p. 91]
If the former part of this work, only, were done for a man, he would be alive with respect to his heart, but he would be still dead in law; for until his sins are forgiven he remains bound over unto death.
If the latter part, only, of this work were done for him, he would be still dead in his affections.
But, thank God, these two works always go together. They are the internal and the external of regeneration.
Where God creates in man a clean heart, and renews within him a right spirit, he also washes him thoroughly from his iniquity, and cleanseth him from his sin.
Hence Jesus, in his conversation with Nicodemus, expresses the whole work by "Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God;" while he expresses both parts of it by "Except a man be born of water and the Spirit."
Viewing the subject in this light, the work of regeneration is effected by two distinct efficient causes, the Holy Spirit and the blood of Christ.
The former producing the internal, and the latter effecting the external; while the Holy Ghost sheds abroad the love of God in the heart, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin.
Cambridge, Mo., April, 1866.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
What is it that you always keep saying to me, CONTEXT.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;{G1435}
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
G1435
as the gift of salvation (Eph_2:8) The Complete Word Study Dictionary
And that
Not faith, but the salvation.
Of God
Emphatic. Of God is it the gift. Vincent's Word Studies
And that (kai touto) G3778. Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis G4102 (feminine) or to charis G5485 (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson)
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You seem to have no problem calling me a Pelagian. Yet you get upset when I just use your name. Strange bit of logic there Ken.
I will expect the same courtesy from you Ken.
Nice try.
Seeing as how you have zero understanding of Greek and you have clearly copied from the "Word Pictures in the New Testament"??? website, it is also clear that you are desperate to tell God that he is wrong to tell you that He made you alive, even when you were dead.
You could not have had faith because you were a slave to sin and you had zero desire to submit yourself under the might hand of God.
Moreso, every post you provide shows everyone here that you are still struggling to submit yourself under the mighty hand of God.
I pity you, Sliverhair. Your fight to be your own ruler must be miserable for you.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Hmmmm...about their response:
Genesis 3:8 And Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.
Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Genesis 3:13 And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Seems to have been a whole lot of fear and finger pointing in their response, not faith and repentance from dead works.
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