The Sovereignty of God is Absolute

[AustinC]

Only in your mind. You seem to think that what you say is of more valve than what the Holy Spirit says. Your continued denial of clear scripture just proves that you are not concerned with what the bible says. You just need everyone to trust what you say.

As said before you are beyond help. As long as you continue to fool yourself by holding to the pagan philosophy that Augustine brought into the church you will not find the truth.

So I will continue to point out your errors so others do not succumb to them same errant views that you have.

Your perception is skewed. You are not the Holy Spirit, nor are you well versed in scripture. What you do is quote some sentences out of context and declare that anyone who corrects your misunderstanding somehow rejects scripture. You're really quite confused in this and you truly could use some Godward counsel, but you will have none of it.
Now you ramble about Augustine being a pagan, which by that process would invoke the idea that all the priests in the Augustine order were pagans, which would make many of the Reformers pagans in your mind.
Basically, you are declaring anyone who doesn't support your humanism to be pagan.

Do you see how off the rails you have fallen?

 

[Silverhair]

Your perception is skewed. You are not the Holy Spirit, nor are you well versed in scripture. What you do is quote some sentences out of context and declare that anyone who corrects your misunderstanding somehow rejects scripture. You're really quite confused in this and you truly could use some Godward counsel, but you will have none of it.
Now you ramble about Augustine being a pagan, which by that process would invoke the idea that all the priests in the Augustine order were pagans, which would make many of the Reformers pagans in your mind.
Basically, you are declaring anyone who doesn't support your humanism to be pagan.

Do you see how off the rails you have fallen?

You really do not read do you. I said Augustine brought pagan philosophy into the church and Calvin carried it forward into the Calvinist theological view. Do your own research and learn something.

You are amazingly close minded.

Valentinus, a Gnostic, taught god offered the message of salvation to every human equally; however,only the predetermined elect were empowered by god to accept that invitation.
The Gnostic god must regenerate a person before that person is able to believe. Hippolytus, Haer 5.14.1
Like Plotinus taught, Manichacism {a Gnostic philosophy} also taught free will was totally lost after humanity's fall.

Do these things sound familiar to you. When I say that you are following a Gnostic philosophy perhaps you will understand why I say that.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I came across this extract from the Belgic Confession of 1561 today.
I think it is rather good and may be helpful to this discussion.

We believe that the same God, after He had created all things, did not forsake them or give them up to fortune and chance, but that He rules and governs them according to His holy will, so that nothing happens in this world without His appointment; nevertheless God is neither the author of, nor can He be charged with, the sins which are committed. For His power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible, that He orders and executes His work in the most excellent and just manner even when the devil and wicked men act unjustly.
And as to what He doth surpassing human understanding, we will not enquire curiously into it further than our capacity will admit of; but with the greatest humility and reverence adore the righteous, just judgments of God which are hid from us, contenting ourselves that we are Christ's disciples, to learn only those things which He has revealed to us in His word without transgressing those limits.
This doctrine affords us unspeakable consolation, since we are taught thereby that nothing can befall us by chance, but by the direction of our most gracious and heavenly Father, who watches over us with a paternal care, keeping all creatures under His power that not a hair of our head (for they are all numbered), nor a sparrow, can fall to the ground, without the will of our Father, in whom we do entirely trust; being persuaded that He so restrains the devil and all our enemies, that without His permission they can not hurt us......
[underlining mine]

 

[AustinC]

You really do not read do you. I said Augustine brought pagan philosophy into the church and Calvin carried it forward into the Calvinist theological view. Do your own research and learn something.

You are amazingly close minded.

Valentinus, a Gnostic, taught god offered the message of salvation to every human equally; however,only the predetermined elect were empowered by god to accept that invitation.
The Gnostic god must regenerate a person before that person is able to believe. Hippolytus, Haer 5.14.1
Like Plotinus taught, Manichacism {a Gnostic philosophy} also taught free will was totally lost after humanity's fall.

Do these things sound familiar to you. When I say that you are following a Gnostic philosophy perhaps you will understand why I say that.

Here you take redeemed by the blood of Christ brothers and you attribute to them the same position as Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:20). Men who read and observed God's word and shared what they observed.
Yet, you refuse to admit your presupposition is pure humanism where man is glorified over God. You cherry pick Bible verses in the same fashion as athiests, Muslims, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses, as you lift up yourself, and then you despise those who would ascribe all glory, honor, and power to God alone. Sliverhair, your own words, above, condemn you.
It is you who follows in the way of Hymenaeus and Alexander as you continue to lift up yourself above your Creator.

*1 Timothy 1:18-20*
This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

 

[MrW]

#79 is great. #80 failed the test.

500 years. It’s sad.

 

[Silverhair]

I came across this extract from the Belgic Confession of 1561 today.
I think it is rather good and may be helpful to this discussion.

We believe that the same God, after He had created all things, did not forsake them or give them up to fortune and chance, but that He rules and governs them according to His holy will, so that nothing happens in this world without His appointment; nevertheless God is neither the author of, nor can He be charged with, the sins which are committed. For His power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible, that He orders and executes His work in the most excellent and just manner even when the devil and wicked men act unjustly.
And as to what He doth surpassing human understanding, we will not enquire curiously into it further than our capacity will admit of; but with the greatest humility and reverence adore the righteous, just judgments of God which are hid from us, contenting ourselves that we are Christ's disciples, to learn only those things which He has revealed to us in His word without transgressing those limits.
This doctrine affords us unspeakable consolation, since we are taught thereby that nothing can befall us by chance, but by the direction of our most gracious and heavenly Father, who watches over us with a paternal care, keeping all creatures under His power that not a hair of our head (for they are all numbered), nor a sparrow, can fall to the ground, without the will of our Father, in whom we do entirely trust; being persuaded that He so restrains the devil and all our enemies, that without His permission they can not hurt us......
[underlining mine]

Here we have the same view expressed that you find in the WCF & LBCF.
"but that He rules and governs them according to His holy will, so that nothing happens in this world without His appointment;"
"that He orders and executes His work in the most excellent and just manner even when the devil and wicked men act unjustly."

But they then want to get God off the hook they have placed Him on by adding this escape clause
"nevertheless God is neither the author of, nor can He be charged with, the sins which are committed"

Do you not see the contradiction in this confession?

Calvinists want God to control/determine/appoint all things which would include even what the devil and evil men do but then you say that God is not responsible because in your confession you now change your mind and claim that your all determining God is no longer the all determining God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Here's something a bit better known; the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563.

Q. What is thine only comfort in life and death?
A. That I, in body and soul, both in life and in death, am not my own, but belong to my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ, who with His precious blood has fully satisfied for all my sins, and redeemed me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me, that without the will of my Father in heaven not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must work together for my salvation.
Wherefore, by His Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me heartily willing and ready henceforth to live unto Him.

 

[Silverhair]

Here you take redeemed by the blood of Christ brothers and you attribute to them the same position as Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:20). Men who read and observed God's word and shared what they observed.
Yet, you refuse to admit your presupposition is pure humanism where man is glorified over God. You cherry pick Bible verses in the same fashion as athiests, Muslims, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses, as you lift up yourself, and then you despise those who would ascribe all glory, honor, and power to God alone. Sliverhair, your own words, above, condemn you.
It is you who follows in the way of Hymenaeus and Alexander as you continue to lift up yourself above your Creator.

*1 Timothy 1:18-20*
This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Your reply just prove once again that you do not read a post. You are running away from the truth regarding the foundation of your Calvinist theology. You are afraid to look at the truth and you once again attack the messenger.

Augustine was the one that brought pagan philosophy into the church and you seem quite willing to follow his lead so your comments are in line with your views not mine. Do you not hold to the same ideas that the pagans did?

You are amazingly close minded.

Valentinus, a Gnostic, taught god offered the message of salvation to every human equally; however,only the predetermined elect were empowered by god to accept that invitation.
The Gnostic god must regenerate a person before that person is able to believe. Hippolytus, Haer 5.14.1
Like Plotinus taught, Manichacism {a Gnostic philosophy} also taught free will was totally lost after humanity's fall.

Do you not ascribe to these views Austin? You have stated them many times as truth. So who holds to pagan ideas, here is a hit it's not me.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Your perception is skewed. You are not the Holy Spirit, nor are you well versed in scripture. What you do is quote some sentences out of context and declare that anyone who corrects your misunderstanding somehow rejects scripture. You're really quite confused in this and you truly could use some Godward counsel, but you will have none of it.
Now you ramble about Augustine being a pagan, which by that process would invoke the idea that all the priests in the Augustine order were pagans, which would make many of the Reformers pagans in your mind.
Basically, you are declaring anyone who doesn't support your humanism to be pagan.

Do you see how off the rails you have fallen?

fallen ?!?

 

[Silverhair]

I would be curious as to how those who oppose the Biblical teaching of the total absolute sovereignty of God would deal with the verses I listed in my post #107 above.

I would be curious as to how the average Calvinist can not see the contradictions in your confessions. You want God to have total absolute sovereignty but then have man responsible for any sin that he commits. But then again you don't even think this God who has total absolute sovereignty can allow man to have a free will. So much for His total absolute sovereignty.

The games Calvinist play is astounding.

 

[KenH]

I would be curious as to how those who oppose the Biblical teaching of the total absolute sovereignty of God would deal with these verses.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand.

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

(emphasis mine)

 

[KenH]

But then again you don't even think this God who has total absolute sovereignty can allow man to have a free will. So much for His total absolute sovereignty.

 

[KenH]

The games Calvinist play is astounding.

And you did not deal with the verses.

 

[Silverhair]

I would be curious as to how those who oppose the Biblical teaching of the total absolute sovereignty of God would deal with these verses.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand.

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

(emphasis mine)

God is sovereign but you for some reason do not actually want God to be sovereign. You need God to micromanage all things then complain when the reality of your view is pointed out to you. Your view makes God the soul cause of everything which would logically include man's sin.

God is sovereign and in His sovereignty He has given man a real free will and thus man is responsible for the choices they make. Free will means man can actually choose to trust in or reject salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes I understand that you are confused but try to think it through.

 

[KenH]

God is sovereign but you for some reason do not actually want God to be sovereign. You need God to micromanage all things then complain when the reality of your view is pointed out to you. Your view makes God the soul cause of everything which would logically include man's sin.

God is sovereign and in His sovereignty He has given man a real free will and thus man is responsible for the choices they make. Free will means man can actually choose to trust in or reject salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

You still didn't deal with the verses. Evidently, you lack the ability to do so, or else you refuse to do so for some reason.

 

[KenH]

Yes I understand that you are confused but try to think it through.

Oh, I understand that you are apparently a Pelagian. However, your rants against the Biblical teaching of the total absolute sovereignty of God seem to be rather incoherent.

 

[Silverhair]

You still didn't deal with the verses. Evidently, you lack the ability to do so, or else you refuse to do so for some reason.

Was the response that I made to difficult for you to understand?

 

[KenH]

Was the response that I made to difficult for you to understand?

This is why I try to avoid interacting with you on this board, @Silverhair. You slip slide around and are not an honorable debater.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Who causes a man to believe? Is it God or is it man?

Neither. and ultimately...Nothing causes it.

By "cause" Calvinists invariably mean there is a preexisting set of circumstances rendering all future events necessary. This includes even "free-will" choices such as believing.
While this may seem intuitive. There is no reason to make this assumption.

Men make choices. Nothing renders those choices necessary. If they were necessitated either by a decree, or God's will, or any combination of things, then they would in no meaningful sense be "choices" at all, but programed autonomic responses little morally distinct from a sneeze.
God's foreknowledge of course means that they are certain. But that does not mean it could not have been otherwise. This is perhaps counterintuitive to many (it certainly is to a Calvinist).

This question is meaningful to Calvinists because it is based upon flawed philosophical assumptions about the nature of certainty and necessity. This is why, I think, you believe this 'gothcha' question to be your WMD against Silverhair. It may also be why Silverhair hasn't answered it. There are unstated assumptions built into the question that Silverhair most likely does not share. For a Calvinist, the answer is simple. It is God, plain and simple. But the question poses a false dichotomy.

Nothing "causes" a man to believe. At least, in the sense that you mean it.