The strong case against a pre-tribulation rapture

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Prior to the 1830's and 40's - almost all Christians were either post-mill or a-mill when it comes to the second coming. Thus they did not have much of a chance of being in the pre-trib rapture group I would guess.

Utter nonsense. Prior to Darby's returning to the biblical teaching of Dispensationalism, God's promises to Israel being unfulfilled but to be so eventually, and the Rapture, Tribulation, and Millennial Reign, almost no Christians had an opinion about end times. It wasn't discussed, except in seminaries. The average Christian didn't care, because at that time, Israel was ancient history with no bearing on Christianity whatsoever. We've found, with the rebirth of natural Israel as a nation, that she does indeed have a place in God's future history.

That is why there was such a fuss before that time about the Americas being the "new world" the "new earth" the new promised land.

Again, utter nonsense. The belief that America was the "new promised land" was espoused by the heretics of LDS and Jehovah's Witnesses. Some badly misguided and naive Christians folded that silliness into their own theology, but it was never taught by mainstream Baptists or other bible-literal churches.

 

[BobRyan]

Then there is -

[FONT=&quot]From; http://www.spurgeon.org/eschat.htm#3b [/FONT]
Postmillennialism was the "dominant evangelical position"100 of the 19th century in both America and England. It was born out of an optimistic view of Christianity's growing impact on society and the legacy of Puritan theology.101 In detailing the aspects of postmillennialism, perhaps the most complete presentation was produced by the great Princeton Theologian, Charles Hodge. Hodge, whose Systematic Theology remains a standard work in America, was also highly respected in England and particularly by Spurgeon.102 Spurgeon was a great admirer of the Princeton Theologians and corresponded with both Charles and A. A. Hodge on several occasions. In reviewing A. A. Hodge's Outlines in Theology (1878) Spurgeon stated:
We commend the Outlines of Theology to all who would be well instructed in the faith. It is the standard text-book of our college. We differ from its teachings upon baptism, but in almost everything else we endorse Hodge to the letter.103 [emphasis ours]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

And of course who can forget

[FONT=&quot]Walter Martin. Kingdom of the Cults – Appendix B.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]From the beginning, the Adventists were regarded with grave suspicion by the great majority of evangelical Christians, principally because the Seventh-day Adventists were pre-millennial in their theology.That is, they believed that Christ would come before the millennium and saw themselves squarely in opposition to the predominant post-millennial and a-millennial schools of thought of that era. [/FONT]

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Note:
The idea of a pre-trib rapture began around 1830 in Scotland when 2 people had visions about it.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

 

[shodan]

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

to Pseudo-Ephraem.
Dr. Paul Alexander, the leading authority whose book inspired the P-E claim, is portrayed in Jeffrey's book, FINAL WARNING, as "perhaps the most authoritative scholar on the writings of the early Byzantine Church." But this misleading statement, designed to make readers think that Professor Alexander supports the P-E claim, covers up the fact that this world famous scholar sees not even a smidgen of pretrib in the same Medieval writer!
In fact, Alexander writes that the phrase "taken to the Lord" (which has become a bonanza for pretrib history revisionists) means "participate at least in some measure in beatitude." While Jeffrey and Ice do include this "beatitude" phrase, all P-E promoters carefully avoid revealing that the Catholic doctrine of "beatitude," according to the NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, has to do with "the highest acts of virtue that can be performed in this life" - works on earth and not being raptured off earth! (Elsewhere in his sermon P-E repeats the importance of doing "penance," because of "our sins," so that church members will be "sustained" during the tribulation!)
In fact (again), Alexander has two summaries (textual and outline), in chronological order, of P-E's endtime events. And guess what. Alexander demonstrates both times that P-E saw only one future coming ("Second Coming of Christ" for the "punishment of the Antichrist") which follows (!) the great tribulation


And regarding Scripture's claims: http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/second-coming-rapture-vs-scripture-christian/

 

[BobRyan]

Again, we find ourselves on the same page ... PTL.

Wonder why so many American "Christians" believe in it?
.

The more we take the Bible "just as it reads" the more we are on the same page my friend! It cannot be any other way.

Question for you - all the nonsense aside - what would you say is the strongest or most-common complaint from the Bible against our post-trib view?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So then the Bible says -


In Matt 24 we have
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


So then for those who prefer an even more pointed reading ---


Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


The man-made tradition of the Pre-trib rapture does not survive Matt 24.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Now I realize that there is a subsequent post to that calling question as to whether Epharaem actually believed contrary to Matt 24 or not - I just find it "instructive" that constructing statements in the form of exact negations of the text of scripture - is so common.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

All agree that Revelation 19 describes the "real second coming".

And in Rev 20:1-5 we have the "FIRST resurrection" described as taking place at the REAL second coming. And the second one being that of the wicked 1000 years later.

In 1Thess 4 we find that at the Rapture "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" - are raptured up to heaven with the living saints - at the 2nd coming.

John 14:1-4 "I GO to prepare a place for you.. IN MY Father's house..., I will come AGAIN" and receive you (up) - to Myself so that THERE you may be also"... but for now Christ said "Where I am going you cannot come" --

In John 5 - only TWO resurrections. One for the righteous and one for the wicked -- a 1000 years later.

 

[evangelist-7]

The more we take the Bible "just as it reads" the more we are on the same page ... It cannot be any other way.
... in Christ, Bob

WHAT! ... Utter blasphemy ... Thou shouldest beest burned at the stake as a heretic!

Christians are to place erroneous church doctrines (from Satan) ABOVE the Scriptures!
(Not to mention dey are to be followin' the Spirit in all things.)

You should be burned at the stake henceforth, if not sooner!
.

 

[evangelist-7]

The more we take the Bible "just as it reads" the more we are on the same page my friend!
It cannot be any other way.

Question for you - all the nonsense aside -
what would you say is the strongest or most-common complaint from the Bible against our post-trib view?

Who ... me?
Actually, I lost interest in eschatology about 20 years ago.
At that time, I was sold on the pre-wrath view.
So, I'm no expert on this at all.

But, how about ...
1 Thes 5:9 … "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ"
.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

All agree that Revelation 19 describes the "real second coming".

And in Rev 20:1-5 we have the "FIRST resurrection" described as taking place at the REAL second coming. And the second one being that of the wicked 1000 years later.

In 1Thess 4 we find that at the Rapture "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" - are raptured up to heaven with the living saints - at the 2nd coming.

John 14:1-4 "I GO to prepare a place for you.. IN MY Father's house..., I will come AGAIN" and receive you (up) - to Myself so that THERE you may be also"... but for now Christ said "Where I am going you cannot come" --

In John 5 - only TWO resurrections. One for the righteous and one for the wicked -- a 1000 years later.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev 20:5-6).

One pre-trib writer, explaining this passage, said, "The first did not mean first in time, but rather first in kind." The first resurrection was for God's people the second will be for the unsaved.

A quick way to shoot down the notion that the first resurrection is tied to a specific date, as opposed to a more general time frame, is to take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. At the mid-point of the tribulation, the two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven (Rev 11:3-12).

Revelation chapter 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists just before the Beast issues his mark. Sometime during the latter half of the tribulation, Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of God.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

While the 7-year Tribulation is occurring, the Bible records the Church will be busy with three events. None of the three have to do with suffering on a world being destroyed.
The first event the raptured Church will participate in is a judgment by God — the Judgment of the Just. This judgment on works is not to determine eternal destiny, but to determine degrees of reward (2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 19:6-9).
The second event is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. This feast celebrates the spiritual marriage of Christ's Bride — the Church — to her Savior. Revelation 19:7-9 shares this wonderful celebration, "Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) Then the angel said to me, 'Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' And he added, 'These are the true words of God.'"
The third event follows the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and is the Church's preparation to follow the King of Kings into the Battle of Armageddon at the conclusion of the Tribulation. This event is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19:11-21). Revelation 19:14 identifies the Church in their "fine linen, white and clean," which was given to them during the first event — the Judgment of the Just. The Church and angelic forces follow the King of Kings into His Second Coming to the earth, but only Jesus Himself will engage in battle and with mere words defeats the nations in siege against Jerusalem.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

If the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation, receives their glorified bodies, and then immediately u-turns back with Christ for the Second Coming as the Post-Tribulation Rapture view holds, then what believer in Christ will be available for the Sheep and Goats Judgment of Matthew 25? The only people left on earth would be unbelievers, called goats. No believer — sheep — would be available for God to put into the sheep category.
Since those who are in glorified bodies will be like the angels in that they aren't given in marriage or reproduce (Matt. 22:30; Mk. 12:25), then a believing, unglorified, human remnant must make it into the sheep category and go on to produce the nations during the Millennial reign of Christ (Ezek. 43:13-27; Isa. 19:21; Isa. 65:20-22; Rev. 20:7-10). This would mean that people would need to come to Christ during the Tribulation yet after the Rapture to produce this Millennial population!

 

[prophet]

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev 20:5-6).

One pre-trib writer, explaining this passage, said, "The first did not mean first in time, but rather first in kind." The first resurrection was for God's people the second will be for the unsaved.

A quick way to shoot down the notion that the first resurrection is tied to a specific date, as opposed to a more general time frame, is to take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. At the mid-point of the tribulation, the two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven (Rev 11:3-12).

Revelation chapter 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists just before the Beast issues his mark. Sometime during the latter half of the tribulation, Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of God.

Jewish evangelists? Lol. Show me that. Evangelists. Wow. I thought we were discussing what the Scriptures say.
First mention:
Rev 7:4
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed:and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Nada about evangelizing.
Rev 7:9-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen:Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Hmmmm. Note the timing, all the ransomed gathered together, W/O #(not the 144k, only, cuz they can be numbered) "out of great tribulation".

Rev 14:6
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

This is the "evangelist". 144K ends at verse 5, the Bible never récords them telling a soul about anything.

 

[BobRyan]

Jewish evangelists? Lol. Show me that. Evangelists. Wow. I thought we were discussing what the Scriptures say.

Read the book of Acts - all the Apostles were Jews.

I thought we were all on the same page there.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation, receives their glorified bodies, and then immediately u-turns back with Christ for the Second Coming as the Post-Tribulation Rapture view holds, then what believer in Christ will be available for the Sheep and Goats Judgment of Matthew 25?

1. I don't propose that there is a u-turn. Christ takes the saints to heaven as we see in John 14:1-4 when he "comes again" (the second coming) - not on a u-turn back to earth.

2. The 2Cor 5:10 judgment "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" event takes place when Daniel 7 says it does (Dan 7:9-10) which is after the 1260 years of dark ages (times, time and half a time in Dan 70 and is before the second coming event described in Daniel 7 where the kingdoms of the world become Christ's.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You should be burned at the stake henceforth, if not sooner!
.

My ancestors were vikings - I will "see your stake burning" and raise you a pillaged outcropping of land on some rocky coast in the North Atlantic after pulling at the oars all day in a black ship.

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[BobRyan]

Who ... me?
Actually, I lost interest in eschatology about 20 years ago.
At that time, I was sold on the pre-wrath view.
So, I'm no expert on this at all.

But, how about ...
1 Thes 5:9 … "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ"
.

Ok so from that we could/should gather that the 7 last plagues in Rev 16 do not fall on the saints. (For in them (the plagues) the wrath of God is poured out).

Just as the 7 last plagues in Egypt did not fall on Israel only on the Egyptians - so we have an example of how that can happen.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
All agree that Revelation 19 describes the "real second coming".

And in Rev 20:1-5 we have the "FIRST resurrection" described as taking place at the REAL second coming. And the second one being that of the wicked 1000 years later.

In 1Thess 4 we find that at the Rapture "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" - are raptured up to heaven with the living saints - at the 2nd coming.

John 14:1-4 "I GO to prepare a place for you.. IN MY Father's house..., I will come AGAIN" and receive you (up) - to Myself so that THERE you may be also"... but for now Christ said "Where I am going you cannot come" --

In John 5 - only TWO resurrections. One for the righteous and one for the wicked -- a 1000 years later.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev 20:5-6).

One pre-trib writer, explaining this passage, said, "The first did not mean first in time, but rather first in kind." The first resurrection was for God's people the second will be for the unsaved.

So then by saying that the "first resurrection" in Rev 20:5 is not "really the first" - there is some hope for a rapture that is not in Rev 20:5.

The alternative is that the "First resurrection" in Rev 20:5 actually is the "First resurrection" and that John 5 only has two - just as Rev 20 only has two resurrections -- because there is only two and John writes in BOTH cases - (John 5 and Rev 20) telling us that in the future there is only two.

A quick way to shoot down the notion that the first resurrection is tied to a specific date, as opposed to a more general time frame, is to take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. At the mid-point of the tribulation, the two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven (Rev 11:3-12).

Or Rev is filled with symbolism - and the two witnesses of Rev 11 are not people at all. They are the old and new testament and the 1260 years of the dark ages is the period of time when the Bible was being suppressed - and that same period of 1260 years is discussed in Dan 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, and Rev 13 so that we need not be surprised by the dark ages or all that takes place in it.

Revelation chapter 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists just before the Beast issues his mark. Sometime during the latter half of the tribulation, Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of God.

The beast and his mark etc mentioned in Rev 13 - all happen after the 1260 years of the dark ages mentioned in Rev 13, Rev 12 and Rev 11 -- it is future but has no 1260 period of time enclosing it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The beast and his mark etc mentioned in Rev 13 - all happen after the 1260 years of the dark ages mentioned in Rev 13, Rev 12 and Rev 11 -- it is future but has no 1260 period of time enclosing it.

There is no 1260 year period of Dark Ages mentioned in Revelation or in the Bible for that matter. It is a "Dark Ages" interpretation of EGW, who is a heretic, a female false prophet, who under OT law would have been stoned to death.

 

[BobRyan]

Calling people names does not solve all the problems that you may find in the Bible -- as it turns out.

I am glad to see that for a few here - facts are more important than name-calling.

======================================

[FONT=&quot]From [/FONT][FONT=&quot]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premillennialism#17th_and_18th_centuries[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“ Edwards taught that a type of Millennium would occur “1260 years after A.D. 606 when Rome was recognized as having universal authority.”[52] “[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]American Jonathan Edwards (1703–58) “fueled millennial ideas with new influence in the nineteenth century.”[51] It was authors such as these who concluded that the decline of the Roman Catholic Church would make way for the conversion and restoration of the nation of Israel. Edwards taught that a type of Millennium would occur “1260 years after A.D. 606 when Rome was recognized as having universal authority.”[52] His Puritan contemporaries, Increase Mather and Cotton Mather, openly proclaimed a belief in a literal millennium. Increase Mather wrote “That which presseth me so, as that I cannot gainsay the Chiliastical opinion, is that I take these things for Principles, and no way doubt but that they are demonstrable. 1. That the thousand apocalyptical years are not passed but future. 2. That the coming of Christ to raise the dead and to judge the earth will be within much less than this thousand years. 3. That the conversion of the Jews will not be till this present state of the world is near unto its end. 4. That, after the Jews’ conversion there will be a glorious day for the elect upon earth, and that this day shall be a very long continuance.”[53][/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]DAY for YEAR – [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Day for a Year – rule in Scripture as we see it in Dan 9’s 70 weeks prophecy (490 solar years correspond to 490 prophetic days in Dan 9)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Numbers 14:34[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34[/FONT][FONT=&quot]'According to the number of days which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day you shall bear your guilt a year, even forty years, and you will know My opposition.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Ezekiel 4:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"When you have completed these, you shall lie down a second time, but on your right side and bear the iniquity of the house of Judah; I have assigned it to you for forty days, a day for each year.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dan 9:24-27 – 70 weeks – 490 days [/FONT]à[FONT=&quot] 490 years. Almost all Christian denominations will admit to this apocalyptic principle in Daniel 9 as it predicts the first coming of Christ.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]============================================================================[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]This view was recognized by the Jews[5] as seen in Daniel 9:24-27, and as seen in Jesus' use of the day-year principle in Luke 13 verses 31-33, and in the early church.[6]

Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle and it was also accepted by many Christian groups, ministers, and theologians.[11][12][13]


[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Others who expounded the Historicist interpretation are John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Phillip Melanchthon, Sir Isaac Newton, Jan Huss, John Foxe, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards,[14] George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, E. B. Elliot, H. Grattan Guinness, and Bishop Thomas Newton as exponents of this school.[15][/FONT]