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the "T" of the TULIP
- Thread starter atpollard
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And none of those verses support total spiritual inability.... Except all those verses in the OP.
Yet another deflection on display.
No verse or passage says or suggests all the fallen are unable to trust in Christ at any time. Not one!!!
Claiming something is said in scripture, without a reference to that scripture is obfuscation. Did Paul say natural people could not understand all the things or some of the things of the Spirit?
Why not answer my question, Sir. Does it say all or some? Why does it seem to be saying all to you, confirmation bias?
Why does Paul speak as to men of flesh using spiritual milk if men of flesh cannot understand spiritual milk? (1 Corinthians 3:1-3)
Folks, do not expect an answer. Expect deflection and obfuscation. Wait and see...
No verse or passage supports the fiction of Total Spiritual inability of all the lost, all the time.
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37818
Well-Known Member
T Roman 3:11 says none.
U God's election is conditional in that no one can deserve being saved.
L Christ died and rose from the dead to be Lord of all persons. Either to be one's Judge or Savior. Romans 14:9-11, Romans 8:34.
I Titus 2:11, Acts of the Apostles 7:51.
P John 10:27-28. God who alone does the saving does the keeping.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I will not address the reasons for your personal experiences, since that is a matter that belongs only to God. However, I will gladly address the first part of your post (above).
Given the definition of “total depravity” as “there is nothing one can do to become even more evil”, I agree 100% with your rejection of such an argument as contradicted by both Scripture and empirical reality. It must be dismissed as a warped fantasy with no real substance or value.
If you will allow, I would share my personal thoughts on the subject of the “fallen nature” of unsaved people. I believe that rather than “depraved”, a better term would be “tainted” or “warped”. I believe that our human nature has been “tainted” by sin in such a way that it has been “warped” from its intended pre-fall state (like a tree that grows twisted through a fence continues to grow in its deformed shape).
I would argue that our minds are tainted by sin and grow warped in a manner that makes the thoughts of God “unnatural” to the human mind. A specific example is the instruction from Jesus that the leader should be the servant of all. What human in authority naturally places his welfare last and the welfare of the poorest of his followers first? God’s way of thinking is not how our fallen minds have been twisted to think.
Our bodies are just as tainted and twisted as our minds. The body that God created to serve Him, craves its own pleasure and actually DOES evil. Not only that, the pleasure of the flesh draws men away from God rather than towards God. Our eyes see and create lust and greed and envy. Our hands that should lift our neighbor, steal his goods, caress forbidden flesh and strike other men.
The corruption does not start and stop with our mind and body, it extends to our innermost being. Call it our “spirit” or our “soul” or whatever you wish. It is the part of man that senses that something is missing in life without our honoring God. Yet even this hunger for God is so warped by sin that men crave after “golden idols” of their own creation to give them meaning and define who they are. How many men are defined by “their Job”? How many chase after wealth? Fame? Something to fill the hole and give them meaning ... anything but surrender to God. Surrender is weakness and we demand to live life on OUR terms.
It is not about the QUANTITY of sin. It is not how deep the sin of each man is. The issue is the pervasiveness of sin. How the “taint” of sin, like water, has worked its way into every corner of our being and left no part of the natural man at least a little “warped”. There are no straight boards to salvage and rebuild from.
That is how I see the problem. From what corrupted corner does a natural man attempt to lay hold of the holiness of God to anchor himself to faith. Does man reason towards God with his tainted mind? Does man physically strive towards God with the desires of his tainted flesh? Does man seek to shove God into the hole in our souls that we refuse to yield control of because that is our deepest personal identity?
For someone like me, that believes in the Doctrines of Grace, natural men are helpless and powerless to fix ourselves. God must make the first move. God creates the bridge between our warped, tainted soul and His unearned gift “saved by grace through faith - not of yourself”.
The problem with Van is, he doesn't understand the concept of DEAD!... It means exactly what it says!... I'm still here Van watching all these discussions... Brother Glen
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
The problem with Van is, he doesn't understand the concept of DEAD!... It means exactly what it says!... I'm still here Van watching all these discussions... Brother Glen
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Well one of us does not understand the consequence of being "dead in our sins." Calvinism has redefined dead to mean unable to seek God or trust in Christ. But that is just a fiction made up of whole cloth.
The people of Matthew 23:13 were "dead in their sins" but were seeking God by being in the process of entering the kingdom.
Again and again Calvinists imply "the things of the Spirit" means "all the things of the Spirit" and does not means "some of the things of the Spirit. Utter nonsense, since just a few verses latter, Paul teaches men of flesh can understand spiritual milk.
I have shown once again, the "T" of the TULIP, total spiritual inability, is unbiblical and false.
Some people, some of the time seek God, Matthew 23:13, Romans 9-30-33, Luke 13:24, Luke 24:5, and John 6:26.
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I do not accept that man has fallen even before he is born. We are born in sin not born sinners. Babies are born innocent. and are not held response -able until they reach an age of understanding.
There are many soldiers who have given there very lives for there friends on the battle field. There was a group of people on an airplane who gave there lives to save others on the Ground during 9/11 no telling how many lives they saved that day. It seems to me that maybe you have over looked the good in people. I'm not denying that there are a lot of just plain old evil people in the world. Nor am claiming everyone is a good person. yet I cannot deny that there are good people in the world who are not saved.
You must have met a lot of people who were evil in your life time to make such a statement. You must not have met anyone who has any good in them at all. It makes me sad for you, because I've met a lot of really good people. Every man lust after something even pastors in church. These so called good men have molested our children and stolen from us all while telling us how evil we are. Every man desires to have more than he has and Salvation has not changed that. Christians still lust after things they shouldn't have. I do not believe there is even one Christian living an absolute sinless life after Salvation. The only righteousness anyone really has belongs to Jesus Christ. Even when the lost do good they are still not righteous because of one thing," Submission to God "
No one is saved with out Jesus Christ. It's true He makes the first move in our Salvation. He draws us to Him. I do not believe man is unable to respond to His drawing or His gospel. Yet not even God forces man to be saved. Not that He couldn't if He wanted to. I don't believe man can love anyone with out the choice to do so.
When I was saved I was convicted of my sinful self. I was ashamed of all the things I had done. I realized that I was hurting the feelings of God including my loved ones. I knew I was wrong in my thinking that everyone who was Christian were nothing more than hypocrites. The conviction turn my thinking on myself as a Hypocrite. I was pretending to be a Christian my self. I realize that I had become what I hated. This broke me. My breaking showed me I needed Christ and I believed. I did not see any barriers preventing me from being saved I was convinced at this moment of Christ because I willingly accepted the truth. I then surrendered.
I believe God has determined to save all who believe in Him and everyman has this ability.
Our God is pure Love. Nothing or anyone has ever loved me so completely as my Lord. I cannot see my self ever being with out Him. He has always been there for me even before I was saved.
MB
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I cannot explain the WHY of it, but God appears to say exactly the opposite ...
- [Matthew 7:22-23 NKJV] "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
- [Romans 14:23 NKJV] But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because [he does] not [eat] from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
The best that I can come up with for a possible explanation is:
- [Luke 6:32-34 NKJV] "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. "And if you lend [to those] from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
That is the point that makes people like me ask ... if the SAVED are still so messed up, that what makes anyone think that something deep inside an even more messed up UNSAVED person would suddenly CHOOSE to love God all on their own? It seems more likely to me that God might make the first move and give fallen us a little "nudge" towards Christ. In Acts 2 God "pierced the heart" of the crowd. God "opened Lydia's heart" to the words of Paul. God "revealed to Peter" that Jesus was God incarnate. Why is it so hard to imagine that God makes the first move in this dance of Salvation ... even before the preacher delivers the Gospel to the soon to be saved hearer.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Like you, there was once a time when I didn't "feel" and deep love for God, then something happened, then how I "feel" completely changed. Let's skip the details since I suspect that the details of salvation are as unique as a fingerprint. The question to be answered, by each person for themselves, is
- Did God "invite" our old, cold heart to love Him and we chose to respond to a simple "take it or leave it" invitation?
- Did God "touch" our old, cold heart and enable it to love Him, so we would gladly accept the invitation when we heard it?
I do not ask anyone to change their answer based on MY experience. I only ask that others accept that my experience is my experience and Scripture supports my experience as strongly as the other experience. My personal and non-biblical hunch is that [1] exists to testify to the FAITHFULNESS of God and [2] exists to testify to the SOVEREIGNTY of God.
Believe it is true because someone believes it is true? Or stick to scripture?
Did we respond with our old cold heart, or were we called and drawn through the gospel?
Soils #2 and #3 (Matthew 13) "gladly accepted the gospel invitation, without being enabled by irresistible grace.
I have shown once again, the "T" of the TULIP, total spiritual inability, is unbiblical and false. Some people, some of the time seek God, Matthew 23:13, Romans 9-30-33, Luke 13:24, Luke 24:5, and John 6:26.
Did we respond with our old cold heart, or were we called and drawn through the gospel?
Soils #2 and #3 (Matthew 13) "gladly accepted the gospel invitation, without being enabled by irresistible grace.
I have shown once again, the "T" of the TULIP, total spiritual inability, is unbiblical and false. Some people, some of the time seek God, Matthew 23:13, Romans 9-30-33, Luke 13:24, Luke 24:5, and John 6:26.
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