Did I bring up John Calvin, or did I address the "T" of the TULIP. See the thread title Sir.
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the "T" of the TULIP
- Thread starter atpollard
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Did I bring up John Calvin, or did I address the "T" of the TULIP. See the thread title Sir.
Right off the bat The disciples and the Jews have been seeking God for thousands of years. They still are seeking God some have found Him although most have not yet. Most of the Jews are not saved yet they seek God.
MB
Yet again "A" has been proven, God must allow a person to come to Him and God must draw (attract) the person. This has absolutely nothing to do with the false claim of total spiritual inability. OTOH, Romans 9:16 says people are willing to come to God.The only way that a man can come to Christ is if he is drawn, and if he is given to Christ by the Father.
In addition, all who are drawn will be raised up, and all that are given to Christ shall come to Him ( John 6:37 ) with not a single one being lost ( John 6:39 ).
That's the "T", the "U" and the "I" all in one section of reading.
Here the claim is made that because men hate God, they hate God all the time and thus would never seek Him. However verse after verse says people do seek Him, so once again a fiction has been read into scripture by Calvinism.
Has this Calvinist addressed those "willing" in Romans 9:16?
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He says no one ever seeks God yet agrees people will for salvation. I Kid You Not
It seem to me you have over looked the fact of conviction and it's purpose. Conviction convinced me of Christ. There was no relief of my shame from the conviction until I believed in Christ. There was no regeneration until I trusted and believed in Christ.
I've heard the testimonies of Calvinist about hoe that all of a sudden they understood the gospel. The gospel is called the "gospel of our Salvation" for a reason. You cannot be saved with out it to believe in.
I believe most Calvinist are saved it's just that they don't know how they were saved. We are not saved while driving down the road thinking about what's around you while driving and not thinking about God. We are saved with the knowledge that we want to be saved. We are convicted and we repent confess and believe. We do not save our selves but God saves us by His choice when He see's that we really believe in Him.
This verse tells us exactly what happens when we are saved.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
When we have been justified we are then saved. Justification means to me that my faith has been accounted as righteousness.
MB
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I believe that this is the result of what God does (gives faith) rather than something that is generated from the heart of a “natural man”.
I cannot speak for “most Calvinists”, but God called me while I was a gang member, arsonist and transporter of cocaine across state lines. I had reached the end of my career and chosen a suicide bombing over “death by cop” as my exit strategy. So it is with a high degree of confidence that I say that I was NOT SEEKING GOD at that time.
(I am not “bragging” about how evil I was ... it just is what it is and makes the point.)
News flash, Christ came to save sinners.... Every born anew believer was once a sinner. And Paul was a chief among sinners.
Sinners can we willing to be saved, Romans 9:16.
Thus some sinners have limited spiritual ability, able to understand the milk of the gospel.
Total Spiritual Inability is fiction.
Sinners can we willing to be saved, Romans 9:16.
Thus some sinners have limited spiritual ability, able to understand the milk of the gospel.
Total Spiritual Inability is fiction.
Again, I disagree.
Not only do they point-blank tell us ( that is way past mere suggestion ) that "no man CAN except"...
They list the only way that a man can.
Problem and solution are both identified in only two verses.
The only way that a man can come to Christ is if he is drawn, and if he is given to Christ by the Father.
In addition, all who are drawn will be raised up, and all that are given to Christ shall come to Him ( John 6:37 ) with not a single one being lost ( John 6:39 ).
That's the "T", the "U" and the "I" all in one section of reading.
All one has to do is believe the words on the page, Van.
One does not even need to pick up Calvin's "Institutes" to see it ( which I never did )...
Just pick up the Bible and read it for yourself.
Speaking of which...
Reading further on in God's precious book, I clearly see this willingly rebellious "inability"...
Side note:
For what is it if a man is dead set against God, but a "road block" or inability to come to God and to be reconciled to Him?
Based on Romans 1:26-32 ( specifically verses 30-32 ) I see this:
" And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
Who is this describing above, if not all men?
Answer:
This describes all of us outside of Christ, for that is what is also being described here:
" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" ( Romans 1:18-20 ).
This is what it is to be the "natural man" ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), at enmity with God ( Romans 8:5-8 ) and walking in the vanity of our minds ( Ephesians 4:17-19 )...
Having our understanding darkened and giving ourselves over to sin.
Yet again, Scriptures provide support, and you deny what they say.
Look at it again, Van.
The NT does not even use the word "draw" in the context of salvation from the penalty of sin. It barely uses the word draw but when it does it is always in the Jewish Christian epistles. It is not used in the Pauline epistles. You should look it up to see if I am telling the truth . The New Testament begins in Acts 1:1 Saints of the OT are not Christians and though they are justified by faith in what God says to them, they are not born again. Only Jews were drawn to Jesus Christ by God the Father and few came to him. Those Jews who did come were given to Christ by the Father since the Jews were at that time, and had been since they became a people way back in Exodus, the people of God. They were the only people of God and they are still the people of God though they are in unbelief as a people to this very day. However, in the NT they were divided into two groups, those who are Christs, calle the "remnant according to the election of grace" and "Israel" the people of God. Here is proof from the scriptures.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Now, consider what he says here about who belongs to Jesus;
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The difference is the Spirit. Those who have the indwelling Spirit are his. They are the children of God. They are the Remnant according to the election of grace.
Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
You Calvinists have answered the question of Rom 11:1 and you have answered it wrong. These verses are well into the NT era, even after gentiles had long since been included with the Remnant of Jewish believers. God says he has not cast away his people whom he foreknew but later in the chapter he says he has a plan to save Israel, the unbelievers.
Based on the truth that I am telling here I have some logic and reason based on intelligent thought. If God does not even use the word draw in the NT where he is actually saving souls through their faith in what he has said about Jesus Christ, the fact that Calvinists have made it a fundamental doctrine of their faith is a sure sign that they are believing someone who is not God.
One must rightly divide the scriptures. It is not a hard thing to do unless one has something to prove that is not in the scriptures.
The doctrine of "draw" is not a NT bible doctrine.It is that simple.
Believe me when I say your right faith is not generated from the Heart. Faith comes by hearing the gospel. Romans 10:17. It's simple you cannot have faith in God with out knowing about Him. You have to know about Him to have faith in Him otherwise you have nothing to place your faith in.
Don't worry about what you were but Praise God for what you are now. I done a lot of things I'm not proud of too. I was more than a pain in the back side for my parents and just about everyone I knew back then. Since I've been saved everything changed for me My parents even boasted about what a change in me.
MB
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Sure I am, George.
But I think that the problem is, you're not believing those words.
Respectfully, we can go through it again, step by step ( if you like ), and I urge you to take to heart your #2 in your signature and to not deny the literality of the words on the page...
Literality like this:
" Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep".
" ...as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed".
" No man can come to me except it it were given to him of my Father".
"...haters of God..."
"...filled with all unrighteousness..."
"... will not come to me that ye might have life..."
"...ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do..."
"...it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy..."
The foundation as laid out in the Scriptures alone, is man's default attitude towards God and towards sin.
This is easily found in books like Genesis, the Psalms, the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Romans, Ephesians and several others.
There are many declarative statements intended to inform all of God's children how bad off they really were outside of God's grace,
And they are designed to abase and humble us as men before a holy God who hates sin and sinners...
Enough to be willing to show His wrath and to make His power known to all of us in His justice and holiness, and to show His grace on the objects of it, who will praise Him for all eternity for His love and kindness to them...
Which He is perfectly within His right as the Lord of all to grant or to with hold His mercy and kindness to whomsoever He wishes.
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Not true God drew me just as He does everyone. I didn't try to get to be saved by works or effort. You assume this on your own. You believe that if you have no works or fruit as you call it then that means your still lost but this is not true we do not have to work. We are not kept by our works. We are in God's hand and no one or no thing can pluck us out of His hand.
MB
Do you wish to work your way to God, rather than be saved by God's grace alone?
All hail the great faith that MB has created so that God looks on him and declares him righteous by his great faith!!!
MB is justified by his faith, which he created.
Jesus atoning sacrificial death was unnecessary and of no value. Only MB's faith makes him justified before God and God calls his amazing faith... righteous. (I ooze with sarcasm)
MB, your teaching is anathema to me.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
This comment actually amazes me, George, and I'll tell you why...
You claim to be a former "Calvinist", which means that you not only were taught the Scriptures behind what is termed as "TULIP", you also believed and understood them; Unless you are now saying that you never did, then I conclude that you have forgotten that this is not what the "Calvinist" teaches at all.
Ask anyone that you label a "Calvinist" why men are "unable" to believe, and you will invariably get this answer:
Because according to the Scriptures ( and there are many ), we see that mankind, apart from the grace and mercy of God, has been allowed to go our own way in our love of sin and rebellion towards God, and to suffer the consequences for it.
Per Romans 1:18-32, He has given us over to the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life, and let us have what we want...
The pleasures of sin for a season.
He has also let us make our own choice ( instead of graciously rescuing us against our will... did you get that? If He rescued us all from ourselves, it would be against our will
) in the matter, and we are now reaping the benefits of the mess that we have made.A mess that, knowing the consequences that the wages of sin is death, we run to it anyway ( Romans 8:32 ).
In other words, we made our mess of a bed, and He's just letting us sleep in it.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
@George Antonios :
So...
When I see a statement made like the one you just made, I suspect that it is more than likely designed to provoke an emotional response from the uninformed reader, who is not aware of why so-called "Calvinists" believe what they do when they read the Scriptures for themselves.
Again, as a former "Calvinist", it seems to me that you simply weren't listening carefully when you supposedly were one, as that is not what we see in the Scriptures;
We do not see, nor do we teach, a God that has taken away our ability to believe because He is ( apparently to you ) cruel and malicious.
The simple fact of the matter is,
We gave it away as a race, and we continually give it away in our hearts and minds every day apart from the miraculous work of God in a person's heart.
That work includes convicting one of the truth of God's word, and impressing upon them their sin and desperate need of a Saviour.
George,
There's a big difference between what you said in your quote, and what I believe and tells others...
God is sovereign, and we as men are fully responsible.
It seems to me that you're completely forgetting ( I say "forgetting" because you've confessed to once being under this teaching in other threads ) the latter, and it seems that you're forgetting this:
The reason that men are unable to believe, is because we are so unwilling to believe...
And it never enters our minds to turn our backside that is constantly aimed at Him around, and truly seek His forgiveness for offending Him.
What is termed as "inability" is, in reality, such a strong "will not" that it literally has become a "cannot".
This is why the Lord Jesus plainly said in John 6:44 and John 6:65, that no man can come to Him unless....
God does something.
So...
When I see a statement made like the one you just made, I suspect that it is more than likely designed to provoke an emotional response from the uninformed reader, who is not aware of why so-called "Calvinists" believe what they do when they read the Scriptures for themselves.
Again, as a former "Calvinist", it seems to me that you simply weren't listening carefully when you supposedly were one, as that is not what we see in the Scriptures;
We do not see, nor do we teach, a God that has taken away our ability to believe because He is ( apparently to you ) cruel and malicious.
The simple fact of the matter is,
We gave it away as a race, and we continually give it away in our hearts and minds every day apart from the miraculous work of God in a person's heart.
That work includes convicting one of the truth of God's word, and impressing upon them their sin and desperate need of a Saviour.
George,
There's a big difference between what you said in your quote, and what I believe and tells others...
God is sovereign, and we as men are fully responsible.
It seems to me that you're completely forgetting ( I say "forgetting" because you've confessed to once being under this teaching in other threads ) the latter, and it seems that you're forgetting this:
The reason that men are unable to believe, is because we are so unwilling to believe...
And it never enters our minds to turn our backside that is constantly aimed at Him around, and truly seek His forgiveness for offending Him.
What is termed as "inability" is, in reality, such a strong "will not" that it literally has become a "cannot".
This is why the Lord Jesus plainly said in John 6:44 and John 6:65, that no man can come to Him unless....
God does something.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I encourage you not to, Austin.
I'm sure you're correct.
The Calvinistic doctrine of the Protestants of total depravity is one of the many hold over doctrines of the Roman church to justify their unbelief in the the simple gospel of Jesus Christ that he will save anyone who will believe in him. Those who are closest to being totally depraved are those who willingly follow and preach false doctrines such as there being a difference in sinners who are the object of God’s love, mercy, and grace.
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