You're like a broken record saying the same garbage every time you post Your just here to stir up hatred. You haven't got what it takes to debate.
MB
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the "T" of the TULIP
- Thread starter atpollard
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MB
Dave G
Well-Known Member
To answer more directly, I understand that a person must be born again in order to believe anything that God has to say.
Per John 8:43-47, no one who is not "of God" can hear His words.
So, in Romans 10:10, the person believing from the heart is "of God"...
In other words, their heart has been made receptive by God.
That's as simple as I can make it.
Everything about salvation is a gift, including being born again, being indwelt with the Holy Spirit so that we may know the things that are given to us freely by God, and being able to understand His word apart from some man or group of men showing us how to.
No one truly believes "from the heart", without God being the cause of it through the new birth.
This is what has to happen to overcome our natural tendency to reject God's words.
This is what offends people who are insistent that they have some part to play in determining their own salvation...
That God completely bypasses the individual's will, and makes someone born again apart from it ( John 1:13, Romans 9:16, James 1:17 ).
That is grace.
Any other method involves man's efforts....works of some sort, whether belief, repentance ( a work of righteousness ), etc.
The first thing keeping us from coming to Him in reconciliation, is our depravity ( moral corruption )...
That is why God has to change the heart.
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YLT 1 Peter 1:18-20 having known that, not with corruptible things -- silver or gold -- were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, (of father (sg) obtained, ie Adam, is how I would have worded delivered by fathers) but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's -- foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
Did Noah find favor in the eyes of the LORD because of Noah's actions or because of what God had foreordained and therefore could not destroy all? Someone had to be left unto Christ. I wonder if Ham found favor in the eyes of the Lord?
Where them Canaanites gonna come from?
How did you hear God? Did you hear Him speak? before you were saved.To answer more directly, I understand that a person must be born again in order to believe anything that God has to say.
Per John 8:43-47, no one who is not "of God" can hear His words.
So, in Romans 10:10, the person believing from the heart is "of God"...
In other words, their heart has been made receptive by God.
That's as simple as I can make it.
Everything about salvation is a gift, including being born again, being indwelt with the Holy Spirit so that we may know the things that are given to us freely by God, and being able to understand His word apart from some man or group of men showing us how to.
No one truly believes "from the heart", without God being the cause of it through the new birth.
This is what has to happen to overcome our natural tendency to reject God's words.
This is what offends people who are insistent that they have some part to play in determining their own salvation...
That God completely bypasses the individual's will, and makes someone born again apart from it ( John 1:13, Romans 9:16, James 1:17 ).
That is grace.
Any other method involves man's efforts....works of some sort, whether belief, repentance ( a work of righteousness ), etc.
The first thing keeping us from coming to Him in reconciliation, is our depravity ( moral corruption )...
That is why God has to change the heart.
MB
There is no biblical support for claiming Noah was predestined to be righteous, so he would find favor. The unvarnished truth is he found favor with the Lord, so according to actual scripture, it was his action and attitude that found favor with the Lord, and not the other way around.
Total Spiritual Inability, if true would preclude Noah from pleasing God.
Therefore, once again, the "T" of the Tulip has been shown to be fiction.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Which "actual scripture" says that the "action and attitude" of Noah found favor with God?
"Total Spiritual Inability, if true would preclude Noah from pleasing God."
- If you begin with a false premise ...
"Therefore, once again, the "T" of the Tulip has been shown to be fiction."
- ... you reach a false conclusion.
Man is not capable of coming to God in His own strength and wisdom ("Total Inability") because every part of a human being has been corrupted by sin in some way ("Total Depravity").
atpollard
Well-Known Member
The key is how one defines "hearing God".
I certainly had heard and understood the "gospel" well enough by 8 years old to see the cracks between what the words SAID and what God DID (or more accurately, didn't do). So I had heard much "about" God by the time I was able to conclude at age 11 that "god" was an invisible unicorn invented to make people feel better.
So there is a VAST difference between hearing the word of God and really having "ears to hear".
To borrow archaic grammar for our KJV fans: "From whence commeth said difference, doth he posit, knowing the answer a cert."
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
What you call "work" God doesn't call "work". God never calls faith a "work". You do, not God. Slight difference.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Absolutely not. You should care more about God being slandered by the Calvinistic heresy.
Charles Wesley:
[1] Ah! Gentle, gracious Dove,
And art thou griev’d in me,
That sinners should restrain thy love,
And say, “It is not free:
It is not free for all:
The most, thou passest by,
And mockest with a fruitless call
Whom thou hast doom’d to die.”
[2] They think thee not sincere
In giving each his day,
“ Thou only draw’st the sinner near
To cast him quite away,
To aggravate his sin,
His sure damnation seal:
Thou shew’st him heaven, and say’st, go in
And thrusts him into hell.”38
[3] O HORRIBLE DECREE
Worthy of whence it came!
Forgive their hellish blasphemy
Who charge it on the Lamb:
Whose pity him inclin’d
To leave his throne above,
The friend, and Saviour of mankind,
The God of grace, and love.
[4] O gracious, loving Lord,
I feel thy bowels yearn;
For those who slight the gospel word
I share in thy concern:
How art thou grieved to be
By ransom’d worms withstood!
How dost thou bleed afresh to see
Them trample on thy blood!
[5] To limit thee they dare,
Blaspheme thee to thy face,
Deny their fellow-worms a share
In thy redeeming grace:
All for their own they take,
Thy righteousness engross,
Of none effect to most they make
The merits of thy cross.
[6] Sinners, abhor the fiend:
His other gospel hear—
“The God of truth did not intend
The thing his words declare,
He offers grace to all,
Which most cannot embrace,
Mock’d with an ineffectual call
And insufficient grace.
[7] “The righteous God consign’d
Them over to their doom,
And sent the Saviour of mankind
To damn them from the womb;
To damn for falling short,
“Of what they could not do,
For not believing the report
Of that which was not true.
[8] “The God of love pass’d by
The most of those that fell,
Ordain’d poor reprobates to die,
And forced them into hell.”
“He did not do the deed”
(Some have more mildly rav’d)
“He did not damn them—but decreed
They never should be saved.
[9] “He did not them bereave
Of life, or stop their breath,
His grace he only would not give,
And starv’ed their souls to death.”
Satanic sophistry!
But still, all-gracious God,
They charge the sinner’s death on thee,
Who bought’st him with thy blood.
[10] They think with shrieks and cries
To please the Lord of hosts,
And offer thee, in sacrifice
Millions of slaughter’d ghosts:
With new-born babes they fill
The dire infernal shade,
“For such,” they say, “was thy great will,
Before the world was made.”
[11] How long, O God, how long
Shall Satan’s rage proceed!
Wilt thou not soon avenge the wrong,
And crush the serpent’s head?
Surely thou shalt at last
Bruise him beneath our feet:
The devil and his doctrine cast
Into the burning pit.
[12] Arise, O God, arise,
Thy glorious truth maintain,
Hold forth the bloody sacrifice,
For every sinner slain!
Defend thy mercy’s cause,
Thy grace divinely free,
Lift up the standard of thy cross,
Draw all men unto thee.
[13] O vindicate thy grace,
Which every soul may prove,
Us in thy arms of love embrace,
Of everlasting love.
Give the pure gospel word,
Thy preachers multiply,
Let all confess their common Lord,
And dare for him to die.
[14] My life I here present,
My heart’s last drop of blood,
O let it all be freely spent
In proof that thou art good,
Art good to all that breathe,
Who all may pardon have:
Thou willest not the sinner’s death,
But all the world wouldst save.
[15] O take me at my word,
But arm me with thy power,
Then call me forth to suffer, Lord,
To meet the fiery hour:
In death will I proclaim
That all may hear thy call,
And clap my hands amidst the flame,
And shout,—HE DIED FOR ALL.
And art thou griev’d in me,
That sinners should restrain thy love,
And say, “It is not free:
It is not free for all:
The most, thou passest by,
And mockest with a fruitless call
Whom thou hast doom’d to die.”
[2] They think thee not sincere
In giving each his day,
“ Thou only draw’st the sinner near
To cast him quite away,
To aggravate his sin,
His sure damnation seal:
Thou shew’st him heaven, and say’st, go in
And thrusts him into hell.”38
[3] O HORRIBLE DECREE
Worthy of whence it came!
Forgive their hellish blasphemy
Who charge it on the Lamb:
Whose pity him inclin’d
To leave his throne above,
The friend, and Saviour of mankind,
The God of grace, and love.
[4] O gracious, loving Lord,
I feel thy bowels yearn;
For those who slight the gospel word
I share in thy concern:
How art thou grieved to be
By ransom’d worms withstood!
How dost thou bleed afresh to see
Them trample on thy blood!
[5] To limit thee they dare,
Blaspheme thee to thy face,
Deny their fellow-worms a share
In thy redeeming grace:
All for their own they take,
Thy righteousness engross,
Of none effect to most they make
The merits of thy cross.
[6] Sinners, abhor the fiend:
His other gospel hear—
“The God of truth did not intend
The thing his words declare,
He offers grace to all,
Which most cannot embrace,
Mock’d with an ineffectual call
And insufficient grace.
[7] “The righteous God consign’d
Them over to their doom,
And sent the Saviour of mankind
To damn them from the womb;
To damn for falling short,
“Of what they could not do,
For not believing the report
Of that which was not true.
[8] “The God of love pass’d by
The most of those that fell,
Ordain’d poor reprobates to die,
And forced them into hell.”
“He did not do the deed”
(Some have more mildly rav’d)
“He did not damn them—but decreed
They never should be saved.
[9] “He did not them bereave
Of life, or stop their breath,
His grace he only would not give,
And starv’ed their souls to death.”
Satanic sophistry!
But still, all-gracious God,
They charge the sinner’s death on thee,
Who bought’st him with thy blood.
[10] They think with shrieks and cries
To please the Lord of hosts,
And offer thee, in sacrifice
Millions of slaughter’d ghosts:
With new-born babes they fill
The dire infernal shade,
“For such,” they say, “was thy great will,
Before the world was made.”
[11] How long, O God, how long
Shall Satan’s rage proceed!
Wilt thou not soon avenge the wrong,
And crush the serpent’s head?
Surely thou shalt at last
Bruise him beneath our feet:
The devil and his doctrine cast
Into the burning pit.
[12] Arise, O God, arise,
Thy glorious truth maintain,
Hold forth the bloody sacrifice,
For every sinner slain!
Defend thy mercy’s cause,
Thy grace divinely free,
Lift up the standard of thy cross,
Draw all men unto thee.
[13] O vindicate thy grace,
Which every soul may prove,
Us in thy arms of love embrace,
Of everlasting love.
Give the pure gospel word,
Thy preachers multiply,
Let all confess their common Lord,
And dare for him to die.
[14] My life I here present,
My heart’s last drop of blood,
O let it all be freely spent
In proof that thou art good,
Art good to all that breathe,
Who all may pardon have:
Thou willest not the sinner’s death,
But all the world wouldst save.
[15] O take me at my word,
But arm me with thy power,
Then call me forth to suffer, Lord,
To meet the fiery hour:
In death will I proclaim
That all may hear thy call,
And clap my hands amidst the flame,
And shout,—HE DIED FOR ALL.
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God never gives faith to the unsaved. God gives faith to the redeemed.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I was saved from the foundation of the world ( Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5 ), MB.
But to answer your question, the first time I heard about Jesus Christ dying for my sins, I was 6 years old...
I prayed a prayer, but there was no real change.
In 1978 at the age of 12, my parents took me to a Baptist church where a "revival meeting" was going on, and a man preached the word of God...
Those words spoke of sin, death, Hell and the coming judgment.
Needless to say, it got my attention in a very sobering way...
The kind of thing that nails one to their seat with a lump in their throat and a knowing that, even though the preacher wasn't looking at me, every word was directed right at me.
To answer your question directly,
No, I did not hear Him speak.
I "heard" Him speak,
and rather than reject His words, I not only accepted them as His, I also believed what those words stated without a doubt.
To put it another way, I believed the words at face value and they made me sit up and take notice.
I didn't fight them, because I knew they were the truth.
37818
Well-Known Member
Arminianism is far more heretical than Calvinism. And at best I am only a two point Calvinist, T _ _ _ P
Dave G
Well-Known Member
George,
As a teacher of God's word, I'm hoping that you instruct those who listen to you to do this:
" Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men." ( Titus 3:1-2 ).
...and then to follow through with it, as everyone who names the name of Christ should do.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
In the words of my Lord, it is written again:
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
So you were saved before you were born. Even before you existed. You weren't born in sin. Like the rest of us. That's amazing!
have you ever taken LSD?
MB
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Only I am not an Arminianist...
yes
No
Righteousness does not overcome sin’s wages of death. Blood must be spilt.
Since all have sinned, all must die, or someone must die for all. I believe we sinned “in Adam”, but we also sin personally. Repentance, while possible without Christ’s sacrifice, does nothing to remove the guilt.
Jesus did not sin, so He didn’t have to pay for His own sin, and was able to pay for ours with His death.
Total inability should refer to our inability to save ourselves, which is true, but not to some inability to respond to our Savior, which is false.
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