The theological bankruptcy of Sola Scriptura

Here's another take on the Waldenses:
http://www.xenos.org/essays/waldo1.htm

And here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians

 

There is no solid evidence of taking the Waldenses back before the 12th century. It might be true but the evidence is lacking badly.

Connecting the Waldenses to the Anabaptists seems tough to do since Waldensian theology is Augustian/Calvinistic while the Anabaptists were classical Arminian. The Waldenses and Anabaptists are spiritually kin to Baptists and all 3 represent a Revival of the New Testament view of a Believers Church but Baptist History itself begins in 1609 and that History is clearly shown by valid History.

 

It appears that Allix and Jones are correct in their findings that this group existed many centuries before Waldo.

What is certain - Waldo got them the attention of the RCC.

In Christ,

Bob

 

There are MANY EARLY historians who AGREE with this view
(Comba, the Waldenses of Italy, p. 188).

It is inspiring to bring to life again the OUTSTANDING
history of an AUTHORITY on this point. I mean LEGER. This noble
scholar of Waldensian blood was the apostle of his people in the
terrible massacres of 1655, and labored intelligently to PRESERVE
their ANCIENT RECORDS. His book, the "General History of the
Evangelical Churches of the Piedmontese Valleys," published in
French in 1669, and called "scarce" in 1825, is the PRIZED object
of scholarly searchers. It is my good fortune to have that very
book before me. LEGER, when he calls Olivetan's French Bible of
1537 "entire and pure," says:

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Yes I am quite serious. The link you give above proves my point more than "debunks" your myth. Contrary to your belief, the Donatists and the Waldenses had much in common. They both baptized after salvation; after one put their faith in Christ. They both believed that the way of salvation was by faith and not of works; contrary to what the RCC believes. They both opposed the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Therefore to pit one against the other, and come up with some kind of revisionist history does you no good, does it? But this the Catholics are very good at--revising history. As others have now posted a number of times from different sources, the Waldenses, and other like-minded groups have existed since the time of the Apostles.
DHK

 

Matt Black,

What would you choose as a better alternative?

(((CATHOLICISM?)))

You've got to be kidding? Yes, theres some error in the protestant or even the evangelical world.

But whatever that error might be it is absolutly miniscule compared to the exceeding overflow of heresy, idolatry and blashphemies in the Catholic world!

Pot...meet kettle?

No way. This is 50 100 gallon pots...meet little teacup.

Somewhat amused,

Mike

 

From the angelfire site, there is a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Waldenses: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15527b.htm
From both this, as well as even the SDA published The Story of the Waldeses; it looks like they were just Catholics who disputed the Church over certain issues.

From the Xenos site (Dennis McCallum)

So, Baptists, let alone SDA's or any other sabbatarians, or JW's, or Church of Christ, they were not.

The SDA book traced them to the 9th century, with Claudius, bishop of Turin, who was a big Augustinian, and a reaction against the submission of the churches of Lombard to the pope. The Nobla Leycon (a poetic confession of faith) being produced in 1100 is taken as prrof that the movement did not start with Peter Waldo, who arose decades later. (Though they acknowledge that some have a later date for it).

 

The bottom line is - do you want to go to the "confessed exterminators" for the "unbiased report" on the origins of these groups -- or should we try to find better - "objective" and external reports.

Do you use the murderer as a character witness for the victim?

Hopefully non-Catholics won't 'feel the need' to do such a thing.

Here is a "very plain" example that even someone who pretends to be confused by the most obvious of Bible points - can't fail to get.

In the case of "annullment" the RCC is "paid" by one party in the marriage to "DISCOVER" that the two were never married in the first place!! No matter how many years and how many kids have transpired during that history.

The church "almost ALWAYS" finds in favor of the "discovery" of the one paying for the service.

They were "PAID" to find "a certain history" and not "another history".

And so they do - statistically "it is a miracle"!!

So is it any wonder that when that SAME institution as "a self interest" to "DISCOVER" NO other Christians exist but the RCC from the times of the Apostles - that they should "undiscover" the ancestors to the Waldenses and Albigenses?

How obvious can this be?

We go to "other sources" rather than the "confessed exterminators" of those saints.

 

Imagine if you will that the Mormon's or the JW's freely admitted to "exterminating" some group of Christians and then made up some bogus story about those Christians just "popping into existence" at some point rather than being connected to mainline Christianity at some point.

How "motivated" would you be to swallow whatever they told you??

 

Out of one side of his mouth pope John Paul II apologized on the behalf of some Christians role in the holocaust and out of the other he beatifies a Nazi allie and Serbian orthodox killer extraordinarie.


Therefore by speaking to you as the representative of the Church and a shepherd of souls, I ask and invite you to strive and work with all your strength to make our Croatia the land of God, because only then we will be able perform two important tasks, which the state has to perform to the benefit of its members.

Loyal to God and to Holy Christ's Church, our Croatia......

You should therefore readily answer my call to do elevated work for the safeguarding and progress of the Independent State of Croatia

Knowing the men who today control the destiny of the Croatian people, we are deeply convinced that they will offer our people their full understanding and help. We believe and expect that the Church in the resurrected State of Croatia will be able in full freedom to proclaim the irrefutable principles of the eternal Truth and Justice. Therefore the Church will follow the words of the Scripture: Verbum Dei non est alligatum - "The word of God is not bound" (II. Tim., 2, 9). And it shall consider its holy duty opportune, importune, arguere, increpare, obsecrare in omni patientia et doctrina et cum omni apostolica libertate - "in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" (II. Tim., 4, 2) and with all apostolic freedom. That is how it shall do and it will consider it a valuable help in the difficult work in building our dear Homeland and State of Croatia.


Who is this 'we' of which he speaks? It seem clear that unless he has a mouse in his pocket, that this is a reference to his peers in the Vatican and perhaps the Holy See himself. It most certainly isn't the Croatian leaders for they are refered to as 'they' in the same sentence.

This new freedom he speaks of is also of note as they obviously already had what we would call religious freedom.

...... so that the Croatian nation becomes the Divine nation, loyal to Christ and his Church built from Peter's cave! There it is. Freedom from rival religions.


The Church of the Lord has never been lost in phrases, but it also never failed in that persistent work, on which the foundations of a fortunate future of individuals, nations and states are being created. A blatant endorsement of the spread of fascism, the Churches role, and the new 'Church States' being created.
Show that, honorable brethren, and now fulfil your duty towards the young state of Croatia.

In light of this we determine, that on Sunday May 4th this year a solemn Te Deum should be performed in all parochial churches, to which the parochial offices should invite the local authorities and the faithful. I hope that these festivities will be performed. And if circumstances will not allow it, it should be performed on the first available day. Regarding the cathedral in Zagreb, I will determine that for you in concord with the state authorities. Sounds like a man who thought he had considerable influence to me.

In Zagreb, April 28, 1941.

Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac


More recently, pope John Paul II threw his considerable political weight behind the renewed fascist state of Croatia, which promptly ethnically cleansed about a quarter a million non-Catholic Serbs from their Country. History didn't record this fact either.

 

This topic is about final authority and where one gets it. Rome is out of the question.

 

#1. For what point?

#2. What is wrong with someone who lived before yesterday being an expert on history?

 

Matt,
Your logic doesn't make sense. There is not proof that the Catholic Church itself existed before the fourth century. Thus you want Bob to give historical proof for the existence of Christians from the time of Christ to the fourth Century. Did Christianity die? No, of course not. We have plenty of evidence of Bible-believing Christians in that period of time who were obviously not Catholics, since Catholics did not exist then, any more than the J.W.'s or Mormons did. That is Bob's point. You are trying to make a claim that you cannot prove. You cannot prove that Peter was in Rome as the Pope. The only reason Peter was dragged into Rome was to die a horrible death. A martyr is hardly the office of a pope (which didn't even exist at that time.) The Catholics really do have a knack of making up unsubstantiated stories.
DHK

 

I already gave the historic evidence for the anabaptist work prior to Waldo

Here it is "again".

I also showed that EVEN RC sources admit that infant baptism WAS NOT the form practiced by the churches of the first 2 centuries AND that it "evolved" to the VERY DIFFERENT thing that it is today. Obviously you can't have "anabaptists" at at time when there IS NO infant baptism.

As for other source that agree with them all.

I guess you have to care about "the details" as with the list of 8 "obvious" points from John 6.