The theological bankruptcy of Sola Scriptura

[Doubting Thomas]

Here's another take on the Waldenses:
http://www.xenos.org/essays/waldo1.htm

And here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians

 

[Kiffen]

There is no solid evidence of taking the Waldenses back before the 12th century. It might be true but the evidence is lacking badly.

Connecting the Waldenses to the Anabaptists seems tough to do since Waldensian theology is Augustian/Calvinistic while the Anabaptists were classical Arminian. The Waldenses and Anabaptists are spiritually kin to Baptists and all 3 represent a Revival of the New Testament view of a Believers Church but Baptist History itself begins in 1609 and that History is clearly shown by valid History.

 

[BobRyan]

It appears that Allix and Jones are correct in their findings that this group existed many centuries before Waldo.

What is certain - Waldo got them the attention of the RCC.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

That the messengers of God who carried MSS from the churches
of Judea to the churches of Northern Italy and on, brought to the
FORERUNNERS of the Waldenses a Bible DIFFERENT from the Bible of
Roman Catholicism, I quote the following:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
"The method which Allix has pursued, in his History of the
Churches of Piedmont, is to show that in the ecclesiastical
history of the century, from the fourth century, which
he considers a period early enough for the enquirer after
apostolical purity of doctrine, there are CLEAR proofs that
doctrines, UNLIKE those which the Romish Church holds,
and conformable to the belief of the Waldensian and Reformed
churches, were MAINTAINED by theologians of the NORTH of Italy,
down to the period, when the Waldenses first came into notice.
Consequently the opinions of the Waldenses were NOT NEW to Europe
in the eleventh or twelfth centuries, and there is nothing
IMPROBABLE in the tradition, that the Subalpine Church PRESERVED
in its INTEGRITY in an UNINTERRUPTED course from the FIRST
preaching of the Gospel in the valleys" (Gilly, Waldensian
Researches, pp. 118, 119).

There are MANY EARLY historians who AGREE with this view
(Comba, the Waldenses of Italy, p. 188).

It is inspiring to bring to life again the OUTSTANDING
history of an AUTHORITY on this point. I mean LEGER. This noble
scholar of Waldensian blood was the apostle of his people in the
terrible massacres of 1655, and labored intelligently to PRESERVE
their ANCIENT RECORDS. His book, the "General History of the
Evangelical Churches of the Piedmontese Valleys," published in
French in 1669, and called "scarce" in 1825, is the PRIZED object
of scholarly searchers. It is my good fortune to have that very
book before me. LEGER, when he calls Olivetan's French Bible of
1537 "entire and pure," says:

"I say 'pure' because all the ancient exemplars, which
formerly were found among the Papists, were FULL of
FALSIFICATIONS, which caused BEZA to say in his book on
Illustrious Men, in the chapter on the Vaudois, that one must
confess it was by the means of the Vaudois of the Valleys that
France today has the Bible in her own language. This
godly man, Olivetan, in the preface of his Bible, recognizes with
thanks to God, that SINCE THE TIME of the APOSTLES, or THEIR
immediate successors, the TORCH of the gospel has been lit among
the Vaudois (or the dwellers in the Valleys of the Alps, two
terms which mean the same), and has NEVER been extinguished"
(Leger, General History of the Vaudois Churches, p. 165).

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
Are you serious???? That alleged quote by Cardinal Hosius has long been debunked.

Check it out here:
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/forgeries/hosius.html

Yes I am quite serious. The link you give above proves my point more than "debunks" your myth. Contrary to your belief, the Donatists and the Waldenses had much in common. They both baptized after salvation; after one put their faith in Christ. They both believed that the way of salvation was by faith and not of works; contrary to what the RCC believes. They both opposed the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Therefore to pit one against the other, and come up with some kind of revisionist history does you no good, does it? But this the Catholics are very good at--revising history. As others have now posted a number of times from different sources, the Waldenses, and other like-minded groups have existed since the time of the Apostles.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

Matt Black,

"But there has to be a better way than the plethora of mutually anathematising stances that sola Scriptura produces."

What would you choose as a better alternative?

(((CATHOLICISM?)))

You've got to be kidding? Yes, theres some error in the protestant or even the evangelical world.

But whatever that error might be it is absolutly miniscule compared to the exceeding overflow of heresy, idolatry and blashphemies in the Catholic world!

Pot...meet kettle?

No way. This is 50 100 gallon pots...meet little teacup.

Somewhat amused,

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Ah, I see the old canard of Landmarkism is sadly alive and well as evidenced by the bogus quotes from Cardinal Hosius and Mosheim. I'm sure mioque willl be along shortly to definitively debunk the same, but suffice it to say that DT has made a good start there; I might add also that the Council of trent was from 1545 to 1563 so for someone to be chairing it in 1524 seems a tad disingenuous.

Mike and Eric, some further thoughts on epistemology, from something I posted earlier in the Theology forum:-

"Permit me to make a suggestion. I have elsewhere mentioned Vincent of Lerins’ ‘rule’ of “that which is believed everywhere, by everyone, at all times” as being helpful to discussions of this nature. Vincent is of course speaking about belief within Christendom and that necessarily begs the ‘drawback’ question of defining Christendom and ‘The Church’ ™. It also has the potential to direct us towards a single teaching authority in ‘The Church’™, and therefore points us in the direction of some kind of Magisterium if you like (I don’t necessarily!), a case of “all roads leading to Rome”.

A more helpful model to evangelicals therefore might be found in the concept of embracing the idea of pluriformity, and here a combination of Pascal and the Russian Mikhail Bakhtin is useful; the former for his dictum, “a plurality that cannot be organised into unity is chaos (denominationalism plus mutual anathematisation of other Christians’ beliefs); a unity without plurality is tyranny (the cults)”; the latter for his asking whether there is any single voice able to pronounce absolute Truth, and for encouraging dialogue accordingly between Christian traditions, placing ‘absolute’ and ‘final’ categories of Truth in their proper eschatological perspective, and accepting that this side of the eschaton we “see but through a glass darkly” per I Cor 13 and stressing the apophatic in theological approach.

The problem with the Pascal-Bakhtin solution is however twofold: on the one hand, it leaves unchanged the plethora of Biblical interpretations based on sola Scriptura (albeit embracing these rather than anathematising all but one interpretation, as many fundamentalists do), and on the other hand it tends towards a plurality of epistemologies and in what sense can this be said to be different from post-modern relativism?

Nevertheless, I believe that a synthesis of both Lerins’ approach and that of Pascal-Bakhtin’s (and please do not think I am straying into dialectic materialistic territory in saying this!) would bear great fruit in endeavouring to settle this interpretative problem."

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Eric B]

From the angelfire site, there is a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Waldenses: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15527b.htm
From both this, as well as even the SDA published The Story of the Waldeses; it looks like they were just Catholics who disputed the Church over certain issues.

The organization of the Waldenses was a reaction against the great splendour and outward display existing in the medieval Church; it was a practical protest against the worldly lives of some contemporary churchmen. Amid such ecclesiastical conditions the Waldenses made the profession of extreme poverty a prominent feature in their own lives, and emphasized by their practice the need for the much neglected task of preaching.
Among the doctrinal errors which they propagated was the denial of purgatory, and of indulgences and prayers for the dead. They denounced all lying as a grievous sin, refused to take oaths and considered the shedding of human blood unlawful. They consequently condemned war and the infliction of the death penalty. Some points in this teaching so strikingly resemble the Cathari that the borrowing of the Waldenses from them may be looked upon as a certainty. Both sects also had a similar organization, being divided into two classes, the Perfect (perfecti) and the Friends or Believers

Among the Waldenses the perfect, bound by the vow of poverty, wandered about from place to place preaching. Such an itinerant life was ill-suited for the married state, and to the profession of poverty they added the vow of chastity. Married persons who desired to join them were permitted to dissolve their union without the consent of their consort. Orderly government was secured by the additional vow of obedience to superiors. The perfect were not allowed to perform manual labour, but were to depend for their subsistence on the members of the sect known as the friends. These continued to live in the world, married, owned property, and engaged in secular pursuits. Their generosity and alms were to provide for the material needs of the perfect. The friends remained in union with the Catholic Church and continued to receive its sacraments with the exception of penance, for which they sought out, whenever possible, one of their own ministers. The name Waldenses was at first exclusively reserved to the perfect; but in the course of the thirteenth century the friends were also included in the designation. The perfect were divided into the three classes of bishops, priests, and deacons. The bishop, called "major" or "majoralis", preached and administered the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and order. The celebration of the Eucharist, frequent perhaps in the early period, soon took place only on Holy Thursday. The priest preached and enjoyed limited faculties for the hearing of confessions. The deacon, named "junior" or "minor", acted as assistant to the higher orders and by the collection of alms relieved them of all material care. The bishop was elected by a joint meeting of priests and deacons. In his consecration, as well as in the ordination of the other members of the clergy, the laying-on of hands was the principal element; but the recitation of the Our Father, so important in the Waldensian liturgy, was also a prominent feature. The power of jurisdiction seems to have been exercised exclusively by one bishop, known as the "rector", who was the highest executive officer. Supreme legislative power was vested in the general convention or general chapter, which met once or twice a year, and was originally composed of the perfect but at a later date only of the senior members among them. It considered the general situation of the sect, examined the religious condition of the individual districts, admitted to the episcopate, priesthood, or diaconate, and pronounced upon the admission of new members and the expulsion of unworthy ones.

From the Xenos site (Dennis McCallum)

The Church of God has failed.
The Holy Scriptures alone are sufficient to guide men to Salvation.
The blessings and consecrations practiced in the Church do not confer any particular sanctity upon the things or persons blessed or consecrated.
Catholic priests. . .have no authority; and the Pope of Rome is the chief of all heresiarchs.
Everyone has the right to preach publicly the word of God
Every oath is a mortal sin.54
Purgatory is a dream, an invention of the sixth century.
The indulgences of the Church are an invention of covetous Priests.
There is no obligation to fast, nor to keep any holy day, Sunday excepted.
The invocation of Saints cannot be admitted.
Every honor given in the Church to the holy images of paintings, and to the relics of Saints is to be abolished.
To this list, he adds doctrines that belong to the period between the Hussite revolt and the Lutheran Revolution:

Auricular Confession is useless, and. . .it is enough to confess our sins to God.
The definition of the church is, "the whole of the elect from the beginning of the world to its end." and that regarding ministries, "the holy Catholic Church is the congregation of all ministers and people obeying the Divine will, and by obedience united. . ."
It is necessary to receive the Eucharist under two kinds.55
To these I would add,

The church and the state should remain as separate authorities.56
The Eucharist is to be viewed as a memorial, not as a sacrifice.57

So, Baptists, let alone SDA's or any other sabbatarians, or JW's, or Church of Christ, they were not.

The SDA book traced them to the 9th century, with Claudius, bishop of Turin, who was a big Augustinian, and a reaction against the submission of the churches of Lombard to the pope. The Nobla Leycon (a poetic confession of faith) being produced in 1100 is taken as prrof that the movement did not start with Peter Waldo, who arose decades later. (Though they acknowledge that some have a later date for it).

 

[BobRyan]

The bottom line is - do you want to go to the "confessed exterminators" for the "unbiased report" on the origins of these groups -- or should we try to find better - "objective" and external reports.

Do you use the murderer as a character witness for the victim?

Hopefully non-Catholics won't 'feel the need' to do such a thing.

Here is a "very plain" example that even someone who pretends to be confused by the most obvious of Bible points - can't fail to get.

In the case of "annullment" the RCC is "paid" by one party in the marriage to "DISCOVER" that the two were never married in the first place!! No matter how many years and how many kids have transpired during that history.

The church "almost ALWAYS" finds in favor of the "discovery" of the one paying for the service.

They were "PAID" to find "a certain history" and not "another history".

And so they do - statistically "it is a miracle"!!

So is it any wonder that when that SAME institution as "a self interest" to "DISCOVER" NO other Christians exist but the RCC from the times of the Apostles - that they should "undiscover" the ancestors to the Waldenses and Albigenses?

How obvious can this be?

We go to "other sources" rather than the "confessed exterminators" of those saints.

 

[BobRyan]

Imagine if you will that the Mormon's or the JW's freely admitted to "exterminating" some group of Christians and then made up some bogus story about those Christians just "popping into existence" at some point rather than being connected to mainline Christianity at some point.

How "motivated" would you be to swallow whatever they told you??

 

[Matt Black]

Please produec these 'other sources', Bob - contemporary primary source documents

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[kjv66]

Out of one side of his mouth pope John Paul II apologized on the behalf of some Christians role in the holocaust and out of the other he beatifies a Nazi allie and Serbian orthodox killer extraordinarie.


Therefore by speaking to you as the representative of the Church and a shepherd of souls, I ask and invite you to strive and work with all your strength to make our Croatia the land of God, because only then we will be able perform two important tasks, which the state has to perform to the benefit of its members.

Loyal to God and to Holy Christ's Church, our Croatia......

You should therefore readily answer my call to do elevated work for the safeguarding and progress of the Independent State of Croatia

Knowing the men who today control the destiny of the Croatian people, we are deeply convinced that they will offer our people their full understanding and help. We believe and expect that the Church in the resurrected State of Croatia will be able in full freedom to proclaim the irrefutable principles of the eternal Truth and Justice. Therefore the Church will follow the words of the Scripture: Verbum Dei non est alligatum - "The word of God is not bound" (II. Tim., 2, 9). And it shall consider its holy duty opportune, importune, arguere, increpare, obsecrare in omni patientia et doctrina et cum omni apostolica libertate - "in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" (II. Tim., 4, 2) and with all apostolic freedom. That is how it shall do and it will consider it a valuable help in the difficult work in building our dear Homeland and State of Croatia.


Who is this 'we' of which he speaks? It seem clear that unless he has a mouse in his pocket, that this is a reference to his peers in the Vatican and perhaps the Holy See himself. It most certainly isn't the Croatian leaders for they are refered to as 'they' in the same sentence.

This new freedom he speaks of is also of note as they obviously already had what we would call religious freedom.

...... so that the Croatian nation becomes the Divine nation, loyal to Christ and his Church built from Peter's cave! There it is. Freedom from rival religions.


The Church of the Lord has never been lost in phrases, but it also never failed in that persistent work, on which the foundations of a fortunate future of individuals, nations and states are being created. A blatant endorsement of the spread of fascism, the Churches role, and the new 'Church States' being created.
Show that, honorable brethren, and now fulfil your duty towards the young state of Croatia.

In light of this we determine, that on Sunday May 4th this year a solemn Te Deum should be performed in all parochial churches, to which the parochial offices should invite the local authorities and the faithful. I hope that these festivities will be performed. And if circumstances will not allow it, it should be performed on the first available day. Regarding the cathedral in Zagreb, I will determine that for you in concord with the state authorities. Sounds like a man who thought he had considerable influence to me.

In Zagreb, April 28, 1941.

Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac


More recently, pope John Paul II threw his considerable political weight behind the renewed fascist state of Croatia, which promptly ethnically cleansed about a quarter a million non-Catholic Serbs from their Country. History didn't record this fact either.

 

[Matt Black]

Sorry, but what has this got to do with Sola Scriptura? Can we keep on topic please

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[kjv66]

This topic is about final authority and where one gets it. Rome is out of the question.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Please produec these 'other sources', Bob - contemporary primary source documents

Yours in Christ

Matt

#1. For what point?

#2. What is wrong with someone who lived before yesterday being an expert on history?

 

[Matt Black]

#1 For the point of your assertion that there were these 'secret Christians'/ proto-Protestants predating the Waldensians

#2 Nothing - provided their expertise is based on primary source documents and not mere conjecture

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[DHK]

Matt,
Your logic doesn't make sense. There is not proof that the Catholic Church itself existed before the fourth century. Thus you want Bob to give historical proof for the existence of Christians from the time of Christ to the fourth Century. Did Christianity die? No, of course not. We have plenty of evidence of Bible-believing Christians in that period of time who were obviously not Catholics, since Catholics did not exist then, any more than the J.W.'s or Mormons did. That is Bob's point. You are trying to make a claim that you cannot prove. You cannot prove that Peter was in Rome as the Pope. The only reason Peter was dragged into Rome was to die a horrible death. A martyr is hardly the office of a pope (which didn't even exist at that time.) The Catholics really do have a knack of making up unsubstantiated stories.
DHK

 

[Matt Black]

I'm not asking for evidence before the fourth century; I'm asking for evidence between then and the Waldenses from c1160.

DHK, I am however curiour as to when you think the Catholic Church came into existence, since the term 'Catholic Church' is used as early in the second century bu the ECFs

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
#1 For the point of your assertion that there were these 'secret Christians'/ proto-Protestants predating the Waldensians

#2 Nothing - provided their expertise is based on primary source documents and not mere conjecture

I already gave the historic evidence for the anabaptist work prior to Waldo

Here it is "again".

The present concept and idea of Anabaptism or rebaptism has been regarded at least since the 2nd century. Some Anabaptists would even point to the 1st century example of the Apostle Paul in Acts chapter 19.

Montanus, the Montanists, and Tertullian (2nd and 3rd centuries) denied infant baptism, practiced believer's baptism, and rebaptized those baptized by heretics. The Donatists (4th century) re-baptized those who had been baptized by bishops who were traditors, or who were from churches stained by fellowship with traditors¹. Anabaptists (rebaptizers) were made criminals under the code of Justinian (A.D. 529). With anti-trinitarianism, it was one of two heresies punishable by death.

I also showed that EVEN RC sources admit that infant baptism WAS NOT the form practiced by the churches of the first 2 centuries AND that it "evolved" to the VERY DIFFERENT thing that it is today. Obviously you can't have "anabaptists" at at time when there IS NO infant baptism.

As for other source that agree with them all.

Cardinal Hosius (Catholic, 1524), President of the Council of Trent:

"Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)

The "twelve hundred years" were the years preceding the Reformation in which Rome persecuted Baptists with the most cruel persecution thinkable.

Sir Isaac Newton:

"The Baptists are the only body of known Christians that have never symbolized with Rome."

Mosheim (Lutheran):

"Before the rise of Luther and Calvin, there lay secreted in almost all the countries of Europe persons who adhered tenaciously to the principles of modern Dutch Baptists."

Edinburg Cyclopedia (Presbyterian):

"It must have already occurred to our readers that the Baptists are the same sect of Christians that were formerly described as Ana-Baptists. Indeed this seems to have been their leading principle from the time of Tertullian to the present time."

I guess you have to care about "the details" as with the list of 8 "obvious" points from John 6.

 

[Matt Black]

I've already said that I'm not impressed with the 'credentials' of either Hosius or Mosheim. Again, you cite no contemporary primary source documents - where are the documents from, say, the 8th century?

Yours in Christ

Matt