The Theological Mix of "God and Country"?

[HankD]

Would you feel uncomfortable visiting in the congregation of a Baptist church in China where an entire sermon was devoted to praising the nation of China and bashing all her enemies? You would probably be screaming inside: "Preach the Bible, idiot! I didn't come here for nationalist propaganda. We're all Baptists, after all."

I would feel uncomfortable in a church in America where America is verbally cursed and God blasphemed as has been aired on television before the last election took place.

It makes me uncomfortable that this blasphemy didn't seem to matter to the majority of those who voted.

My local church doesn't preach politically oriented sermons apart from sermons which included warnings against certain agenda items which violate certain principles laid down in the Scripture as the pastor exposits the Bible book by book.

Personally, I have little use for right or left wing alarmists.

What will be will be and I can live under any government and hopefully find contentment in any state I find myself.

But I feel that there is a bad wind beginning to blow in my beloved country even among Christians and I do not intend to participate in the storm of hate it is going to bring.

I will quietly do all that the Scripture and the law of the land allows to take actions (e.g. redress of grievance) and/or to vote and pray out of office those whose words or deeds prove them unworthy or those whose words versus their deeds prove them unworthy.

HankD

 

[go2church]

I would hope that outside of my illustrations and dialect you wouldn't know what nationality I was if you were to sit in on a worship service were I spoke.

We raised money to send snacks and laundry soap to one of our men sent to serve in Afghanistan, called it Christians for Soldiers. Our church sent so much stuff our soldier ended up suppling other soldiers in the same quarters. No judgment about the war, no go kill em all for Jesus nonsense. Just your serving we want to help, here's a box of stuff to make a bit more comfortable.

I don't have any flags in the church and though I wish God would bless America, don't expect any patriotic type service this 4th of July or any other. There is a time and place for that, church service isn't the time or place. During that time there is a far greater kingdom to exalt and honor, the Kingdom of God.

 

[Ruiz]

I would hope that outside of my illustrations and dialect you wouldn't know what nationality I was if you were to sit in on a worship service were I spoke.

We raised money to send snacks and laundry soap to one of our men sent to serve in Afghanistan, called it Christians for Soldiers. Our church sent so much stuff our soldier ended up suppling other soldiers in the same quarters. No judgment about the war, no go kill em all for Jesus nonsense. Just your serving we want to help, here's a box of stuff to make a bit more comfortable.

I don't have any flags in the church and though I wish God would bless America, don't expect any patriotic type service this 4th of July or any other. There is a time and place for that, church service isn't the time or place. During that time there is a far greater kingdom to exalt and honor, the Kingdom of God.

I think you are wise. The church should not pledge allegiance to any but Christ. I would hope people would leave your worship service talking about how wonderful the worship of God was instead of how wonderful your tribute was to a certain country.

When in the military, I had a crisis of belief when reading my devotions. I was confronted with the idea, "I have agreed to, if need be, die for my country. How much more devotion should I give to God?" From then on I knew I would not stay in the military. While I love America, if the Lord tarries the US has come and it will probably cease... but the Lord our God will remain forever.

 

[Jerome]

PastorGreg is of course quite correct about this "until the 20th century" nonsense.

From the pre-"20th century" Baptist hymnal Our Own Hymn-Book.

#1009 Shine, mighty God, on Britain shine.
With beams of heavenly grace;
Reveal Thy power through all our coasts,
And show Thy smiling face.

Amidst our isle, exalted high,
Do thou our glory stand
And, like a wall of guardian fire,
Surround this favour'd land. . . .

BTW, these words were originally penned by pre-"20th century" hymnwriter Isaac Watts.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Our culture is not Christian.
Our government is not Christian.
Only surrendering and following Christ is Christian.

But think if our culture were Christian...
What if our Government were Christian...
If all those who profess the name of Christ did surrender and follow Christ they could be.

Nothing wrong with a little patriotism as long it does not become idolatrous. Most recocognize mothers and fathers on their days. Why not recognize the freedom we have to worship God without fear of reprisal by the government fot the few more years we continue to have such freedoms.

 

[thegospelgeek]

I completely agree with your point. We are called to members of Christ's kingdom. This earthly kingdom in which we live, which is not "Christian" besides Christianity's place as the former civic religion, will pass away.

As far as the flag being idolatrous, you are exactly right. I do not salute or pledge allegiance to the flag anymore, even in my classroom at school. As a Christian, my allegiance should lie elsewhere.

On top of the point you give, it makes me want to vomit whenever the patriotic, nationalistic bile is spewed from the pulpit. It is especially horrific whenever there is talk about the various military endeavors as if God were on our side. Or when we give thanks that American life was spared, while other image-bearers have been slaughtered in some blood-thirsty conquest to spread the American ideal.

We serve a higher throne.

Let me know when you want to leave and I'll buy you a one way ticket as long as you promise not to return.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Hank, I myself am deeply patriotic and empathize with your sentiments. I appreciate what God has done for America. I want God to continue to bless America and I pray that He does. I am, however, alarmed at what nationalistic politics is doing to churches. Instead of studying the Bible for themselves, some let talk radio figures, deeply flawed politicians, or establishment leadership of political parties dictate to them what Christianity is and what the Bible actually teaches.

Some seem to swear by the beliefs of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Sarah Palin, or what not more so than the Bible itself. They can easily dismiss "differences" in carnal doctrines, but to criticize the words or actions of the sacred cows of "conservative" politics is to tempt the wrath of God.

Some people can believe the Bible and have different opinions on some political issues that the Bible itself does not specifically address (or it may do so, but fans of political figures may just try to explain away the teaching of the Bible itself in favor of the views of their heroes).

Would you feel uncomfortable visiting in the congregation of a Baptist church in China where an entire sermon was devoted to praising the nation of China and bashing all her enemies? You would probably be screaming inside: "Preach the Bible, idiot! I didn't come here for nationalist propaganda. We're all Baptists, after all."

I, myself, have no problem with a country's flag in a church's place of gathering.
I have no problem with prayers in church thanking God for blessing the country and the freedoms that He has bestowed upon that country for worship.
I have no problem thanking God for the men and women who have laid down their lives for these freedoms.

I get a little uneasy when a church becomes a vehicle for unhealthy political alliances and dedicates "sermons" entirely away from preaching the unmitigated Word of God for political pandering. Sometimes it seems that some churches want to propagate an unrealistic view of a theonomy that never was, never is, nor was ever supposed to be.

The whole purpose of the church is to edify the saints and to expound upon the Word of God.

I can agree with this sentement. The purpose of the church is not to worship the government but Christ. I am an old school patriot and currently have two sons serving in the US Armed Forced, but I have never witnessed a service like you describe but feel I would walk out if it happened.

 

[jaigner]

Let me know when you want to leave and I'll buy you a one way ticket as long as you promise not to return.

Thanks for the generosity.

This attitude is not born from a hatred of my homeland. I don't agree with everything that happens here, but I can't possibly think of a place in the world where that would be any different.

Wherever I live, my allegiance lies with Christ's Kingdom. This earthly kingdom will fall, like every other, but Christ's Kingdom is forever.

So, when in church, there are truths that may apply to issues of civic or national spheres, but the flag on the platform and patriotic songs (many of which contain some very troubling theology) have no place. If Christ is not the center of worship, worship ceases to be Christian.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Thanks for the generosity.

This attitude is not born from a hatred of my homeland. I don't agree with everything that happens here, but I can't possibly think of a place in the world where that would be any different.

Wherever I live, my allegiance lies with Christ's Kingdom. This earthly kingdom will fall, like every other, but Christ's Kingdom is forever.

So, when in church, there are truths that may apply to issues of civic or national spheres, but the flag on the platform and patriotic songs (many of which contain some very troubling theology) have no place. If Christ is not the center of worship, worship ceases to be Christian.

That I can agree with. Maybe I misunderstood the intent of the original post. I offer my sincerest apologies.

 

[saturneptune]

Hello to all:

I have said all that to lay a foundation for my post. I just go into orbit and will not sin against my own conscience when there is a "4th of July," "Veteran's Day," "Memorial Day," "Flag Day," "Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag" etc., in a worship service. Generally, I get up and leave. There has been times when I sat there, or stood, and participated. But my spirit was smitten. And I hope not to do it again.

My question is this? Should we salute the American Flag in a worship service. My conviction is that the Gospel is transnational, trans-American, trans-historical, and to put anything on the par with some allegiance to the Gospel is just plain wrong. And it borders on idolatry....

I know I am going to catch it from those who cannot tell the difference in being a good patriot and equating that with being a "good Christian;" or being a "good American" and being a "good Christian." Keep in mind this is one man's opinion. I would hope that this will cause you to think through the issue for yourself.

Allegiance to Christ supersedes everything. Remember the words to Luther's A Mighty Fortress is Our God. "Let goods and kindred go, this mortal life also...."

I know I will be rebuked and called anti-American. I am pro-American and consider myself a patriot. And I would gladly lay down my life for this great republic if called upon to do so. But my higher allegiance is to King Jesus and His Kingdom.

"That is all!" :smilewinkgrin:

I am a veteran and Christian and see no problem with your ideas. Church is for the worship of the Lord, and Him alone. I see no problem, however, with being thankful for the freedoms and liberty He has granted us being citizens of this nation. Personally, I have no problem with the flag or Christian/patriotic songs as long as they are in that context, and do not take the place of the worship of the Lord in any fashion.

Where I do get very angry is the relationship, insinuation, or support of either of the two present parties as being in any way related to a Holy God. There could be nothing further from the Lord than the self-indulgent slobs that run our Congress and Executive branch today. Thread after thread has been started about the virtues of one over another, usually by individuals that have higher level degrees in theology, and should know better. How does one compare two sets of thieves in relation to the Lord?

Being thankful for the nation we live in, and expressing such thanks in church is one thing. Mixing a house of worship with the political sewer that exists now is quite another.

 

[AresMan]

I can agree with this sentement. The purpose of the church is not to worship the government but Christ. I am an old school patriot and currently have two sons serving in the US Armed Forced, but I have never witnessed a service like you describe but feel I would walk out if it happened.

In a church to which I used to go, an entire sermon was devoted to preaching about how George W. Bush would likely be the greatest president in U.S. history--with specific reference to being better than Ronald Reagan--and that he was a devoted Christian and conservative.
This was before Bush made the ecumenical statement that pretty much all roads lead to heaven. No mention was ever made of this.
This was also before Bush pushed No Child Left Behind and bank bailouts. Despite the general agreement among the congregation that such things were bad, no mention was made of these from the pulpit.
However, if any Democrat proposed such things, they would sure get mentioned.

The church would pass out voter guides that I can tell were always geared toward identifying the one candidate for value voters. Doing my research, I could see that if the targeted candidate were heavily deficient in some issues, those issues would simply not be displayed on the guide. The guides make a convoluted effort to craft the results so that one candidate always has all "YES"'s on all the issues selected to be shown.
The church should not be telling the congregation for WHOM to vote, but rather simply preach for WHAT to vote indirectly by simply expounding the Word.

Heavy allegiance seemed to be toward Republican Party candidates, period. Of course, the church was IFB and KJVo, yet would praise corrupted politicians who obviously did not adhere to even the remotest set of doctrines and morals that the church espoused.

Of course, one can think that certain politicians are "good" for certain political reasons, but the CHURCH is not the vehicle for this. The so-called "Moral Majority" and "Christian Coalition" have become over time vehicles to propagandize churches into voting for Republican candidates, from which party they receive respective donations.

I do not like the marriage of the church and corrupt, secular political parties. Leave the political pandering outside the church assembly.

 

[jaigner]

Today, in the little church where I serve as the interim music director, the congregation will likely be asked to stand up and recite the pledge of allegiance.

I won't be doing it. I'll stand with my arms at my side and try not to cause a scene. But I won't say the words.

July 4th falling on a Sunday brings this theological/nationalism intersection into the forefront.

I'm thankful for the privilege of living here, but I don't particularly care for celebrating the independence earned by destroying the lives of thousands of British image-bearers over unfair taxes.

Just where I am.

 

[StefanM]

Today, in the little church where I serve as the interim music director, the congregation will likely be asked to stand up and recite the pledge of allegiance.

I won't be doing it. I'll stand with my arms at my side and try not to cause a scene. But I won't say the words.
.

I cherish the freedoms that we have in America, and I am thankful for the sacrifice of those who have placed their lives on the line for the country.

That being said, the place and time to recognize these things is not in a church service.

Today, I sang exactly one song, "God of our Fathers," because it was the only song truly about God (prior to the invitation). The rest of the time I either stood still or sat.

We had a medley of the hymns of the respective branches of the U.S. Armed Forces. I'm not sure I could justify that if I tried.

 

[Robert Snow]

What a coincidence! Just last night, I was watching the WW2 documentary, "Band of Brothers." It dawned on me that during this war, we more than likely had Christians in Germany and other parts of Europe killing Christians in America, and vice versa.

I'm not making some political statement except to say this shows just how horrible war can be. BTW, I am not saying that America should not have entered the war, we didn't have much of a choice!

 

[Tom Butler]

At our morning worship today, the organ-piano prelude was a patriotic hymn, my wife Janice sang "God Bless America" during the offering, and the organ-piano postlude as another patriotic hymn ("America," I think). The men's quartet sang a gospel song unrelated to patriotism and the pastor's sermon was solidly biblical and non-patriotic.

I think it was a nice middle ground.

 

[Ruiz]

Dr. Yarnell from SWBTS put this on his facebook last night:

"Urging preachers to preach Jesus tomorrow...not America."

I agree!

 

[StefanM]

I hate this quote:

""Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you; Jesus Christ and the American G. I. One died for your soul; the other for your freedom.""

IMO, comparing a soldier to Christ is blasphemous.

Not to mention that others offer self-sacrificial service (firefighters, police officers, etc.).

Members of my family have served in combat, some have died, and some were injured severely. None of their sacrifices measure up to Christ's sacrifice.

 

[Revmitchell]

I hate this quote:



IMO, comparing a soldier to Christ is blasphemous.

Not to mention that others offer self-sacrificial service (firefighters, police officers, etc.).

Members of my family have served in combat, some have died, and some were injured severely. None of their sacrifices measure up to Christ's sacrifice.

Over reaction alert! Have you ever heard of theological typology?

 

[Greektim]

Dr. Yarnell from SWBTS put this on his facebook last night:

"Urging preachers to preach Jesus tomorrow...not America."

I agree!

Praise the Lord for that quotation... wish I would've thought of it!

 

[Tom Bryant]

We tried to strike a - perish the word - compromise. :tonofbricks:

We sang the National Anthem to begin the service, then all the songs were praise to God, just like we normally do. In the sermon, I mentioned what the Bible says about our relationship to our country - obedience to laws, paying our taxes, praying for our leaders. But most of the sermon was about our real citizenship - in God's kingdom and how that ought to be our real and ultimate allegiance.