The Theological Mix of "God and Country"?

[Rhetorician]

TB Reponse

We tried to strike a - perish the word - compromise. :tonofbricks:

We sang the National Anthem to begin the service, then all the songs were praise to God, just like we normally do. In the sermon, I mentioned what the Bible says about our relationship to our country - obedience to laws, paying our taxes, praying for our leaders. But most of the sermon was about our real citizenship - in God's kingdom and how that ought to be our real and ultimate allegiance.

Hey Tom,

Since I was the one who got this shindig going, I think what you did sounds OK. Your really do have to teach your people that the Gospel is more important than nationalism or patriotism. And that is a work in progress.

"That is all!" :smilewinkgrin:

 

[StefanM]

Over reaction alert! Have you ever heard of theological typology?

Have you ever heard of cheap comparisons?

It's not a theological typology. The point of the quote is to reference the American soldier, not Christ.

Why is this? You hear it on the 4th of July, an American holiday.

ALSO: the American soldier is the SECOND one mentioned in the comparison. The logical comparison is to interpret the second in light of the first, so it's trying to say that the soldier is like Jesus. That's not typology. That's just cheap comparison.

 

[Ruiz]

To be frank, if I were attending a service which focused on country and God, I would leave.

To me, such has drippings of the nationalism Hitler tried to employ. He would use patriotic symbolism within the worship of the churches. The mixture provided a nationalistic religion which those faithful Pastors against the Hitler regime believed was harmful. The Roman and church were so united together that when Rome fell, there were people who began to question their own faith and others charged it was because Rome left their gods. Again, uniting patriotism in the church was not good. Wherever tried, the results harm the church with a nationalistic syncretistic religion and harms the state. The Roman Church, the German Church, the English Church during the Crusades (and other times) were harmed by a nationalistic waive of patriotism within the church. When nationalism meets the church, harm always comes about to both the church and state.

There is nothing wrong with loving your country; there is nothing wrong with worshiping God. Yet, the church should not come together to show love of country. My God is a jealous God and His time of worship by His Church should not be shared with anyone or anything else.

 

[StefanM]

There is nothing wrong with loving your country; there is nothing wrong with worshiping God. Yet, the church should not come together to show love of country. My God is a jealous God and His time of worship by His Church should not be shared with anyone or anything else.

:thumbs: I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Deacon]

Our service yesterday was a follow up report on a mission’s trip to Nepal by one of our elders.
We also had communion. Before the report and after communion, I prayed.
Up to that point there was no mention of the 4th of July celebration.

I mentioned a phrase in the pledge of allegiance
“One nation, under God”

I thanked God for the blessings he bestowed upon our nation.
I thanked him for our freedom to worship and for our freedom to give a witness about our faith.

I prayed for Godly direction for our leaders and an acceptance of those under them to recognize that God was working hour his sovereign will.

Then I prayed with specifics for the various ways our church witnesses in our community and abroad.
God has blessed his people in this nation of ours!

I don’t think Rhetorician or others of you would have had a problem with the prayer.

Does God bless one nation over another?
I think an argument can be made that he does, although I don’t think that as a people we can manipulate the causing factors.
But we can be thankful for his blessing.

Rob

 

[Winman]

“Christianity and patriotism are synonymous terms, just as hell and traitors are synonymous.”

Billy Sunday

 

[Greektim]

“Christianity and patriotism are synonymous terms, just as hell and traitors are synonymous.”

Billy Sunday

I guess I strongly disagree w/ Billy Sunday. Different time, different era, different perspective though.

 

[StefanM]

“Christianity and patriotism are synonymous terms, just as hell and traitors are synonymous.”

Billy Sunday

"My kingdom is not of this world." - Jesus Christ

 

[Greektim]

“Christianity and patriotism are synonymous terms, just as hell and traitors are synonymous.”

Billy Sunday

"Our citizenship is in heaven" - Apostle Paul

 

[Winman]

Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

In this verse, Paul shows that it is not always possible to live at peace with all men. Unfortunately, there are times when a person must fight, especially in self defense.

It is not wrong to love and support your country. It is not wrong to protect it, just as it is not wrong to protect your family if someone was trying to hurt them.

In the scriptures God sent men to war many times. He sent Moses, Joshua, David and others. This was to destroy especially evil nations.

Now, I don't believe God supports unjust war. But if an innocent nation is attacked or threatened, I believe God would support that nation.

 

[StefanM]

I can agree with your post there, Winman.

What I cannot accept is blind patriotism. Not every country's government warrants a patriotic response. Facist and communist countries come to mind.

My thoughts are as follows:

1) Allegiance to Christ.

2) Allegiance to country (if not conflicting with #1)


The reason I do not support "patriotism" in corporate worship is because it detracts from #1. In a different context, I'll be happy to sing the national anthem, etc!

 

[Winman]

I can agree with your post there, Winman.

What I cannot accept is blind patriotism. Not every country's government warrants a patriotic response. Facist and communist countries come to mind.

My thoughts are as follows:

1) Allegiance to Christ.

2) Allegiance to country (if not conflicting with #1)


The reason I do not support "patriotism" in corporate worship is because it detracts from #1. In a different context, I'll be happy to sing the national anthem, etc!

And I agree with you, I don't believe in blind allegiance either.

Now, I may be a little different with you as to being patriotic in church. I truly do consider the U.S.A. as a Christian country. Oh, we have plenty of faults, in many ways we may be the most sinful nation on earth. But there are millions of true Christians here who want to live right and serve God. In some ways we are the last hope, that city on the hill. And as Christians, we should do all we can to maintain that heritage.

There are two nations on earth that are despised, the U.S.A. and Israel, and both are hated because of religion.

 

[jaigner]

“Christianity and patriotism are synonymous terms, just as hell and traitors are synonymous.”

Billy Sunday

I would actually be surprised if he knew what "synonymous" meant. He was a heck of a ballplayer, but no theologian.

Sunday is generally bogus. And this is no exception. Christianity and patriotism are in no way synonymous.

 

[jaigner]

Even if the founding fathers intended to establish a "Christian" nation, which I'm not convinced of, the result was a nation that has rarely looked like Christ and his kingdom.

We slaughtered thousands of British image-bearers over...taxation without representation.

We enslaved millions of African image-bearers and in many cases because rich off their labor.

We continued to promote segregation and inequality even after slavery was abolished.

We had our way with people who were here before us. Manifest destiny anyone? Ouch. Smallpox blankets? We thought God was on our side there, too.

This list goes on. I realize in the power of hindsight and that it reflects the biases and beliefs of the day, but it doesn't change the fact that we've done some horrible things.

And I'm not comfortable with celebrating these things, especially in corporate worship. And when the focus of worship is anything other than Christ, it ceases to be Christian.

So when, as happened in my congregation yesterday, we stand and pledge allegiance to the flag, we have bastardized corporate worship.

 

[preachinjesus]

Billy Sunday's theologically absurd insight aside, we should consider that a Christianity only for Americans is a Christianity for no one.

The ridiculous belief that Christianity=Patriotism/Nationalism denies both the efficacy of the Cross and that it is for all people..not some "Johny-come-lately" country 200 year old county. Sounds harsh, yep, but its true.

Among the worst tragedies visited upon humanity have been those where religion is united with nationalism.

I can't imagine pledging our allegiance to anything but Christ in a worship service. I can't imagine having a national anthem sung in a Christian worship service.

Though none of it surprises me, the attachment of evangelical Christianity to American political nationalism is fairly strong these days.

 

[Winman]

Even if the founding fathers intended to establish a "Christian" nation, which I'm not convinced of, the result was a nation that has rarely looked like Christ and his kingdom.

True, but there have always been many true Christians in this country, and the world has been envangelized through this country like none other. The world would be a lot worse without the USA.

We slaughtered thousands of British image-bearers over...taxation without representation.

Well, to simply tax people without representation is tyranny.

We enslaved millions of African image-bearers and in many cases because rich off their labor.

True, but we inherited slavery from the European nations. It was Christianity, especially the Baptists who started the anti-slavery movement. Yes, it started in England, but soon moved here through the church.

We continued to promote segregation and inequality even after slavery was abolished.

Much of discrimination can be blamed on the teachings of evolution that came out of Europe in the mid 1800s. Many people believed it was scientific that certain peoples were inferior to others. Sadly, many Christians also fell for this lie from hell.

We had our way with people who were here before us. Manifest destiny anyone? Ouch. Smallpox blankets? We thought God was on our side there, too.

True, many did use religion as the excuse to kill "heathens". Again, evolution also encouraged this later on.

This list goes on. I realize in the power of hindsight and that it reflects the biases and beliefs of the day, but it doesn't change the fact that we've done some horrible things.

And I'm not comfortable with celebrating these things, especially in corporate worship. And when the focus of worship is anything other than Christ, it ceases to be Christian.

So when, as happened in my congregation yesterday, we stand and pledge allegiance to the flag, we have bastardized corporate worship.

We are not really celebrating these things. We are celebrating our victory over these problems and sins. America emerged out of a very evil and superstitious world. Yes, we partook in many of these great sins. But we also saw our sin, often as a direct result of Christian influence.

America is often brash and bold. But we are also the most honest country on earth to confess and admit our sins. This is what makes America a great country. America also realizes that man is not the property of the state, but of God and allows men freedoms other countries deny. This is a result of Christian influence, and why so many still seek to come here.

 

[TomVols]

There are two nations on earth that are despised, the U.S.A. and Israel, and both are hated because of religion.

Not true. Neither is very religious. Israel is overwhelmingly atheist. And it says something that the terrorists said they wanted to strike at the heart of America on 9/11, so they hit our biggest symbol of trade and finance, the WTC towers. They didn't attack a spiritual symbol, they attacked what they knew was our heart - money.

I love this country, and I appreciate the sacrifice of those who died so I can live in freedom. But I'm an alien and stranger here (see 1 Peter). And worship isn't the place to exalt a nation, but rather a Savior whose Kingdom is what deserves my highest allegiance. The greatest freedom I live in is the freedom given by Christ (cf Gal 5:1), and I can have that in a communist jail cell as easily as I can in my American living room.

 

[Robert Snow]

Not true. Neither is very religious. Israel is overwhelmingly atheist. And it says something that the terrorists said they wanted to strike at the heart of America on 9/11, so they hit our biggest symbol of trade and finance, the WTC towers. They didn't attack a spiritual symbol, they attacked what they knew was our heart - money.

I love this country, and I appreciate the sacrifice of those who died so I can live in freedom. But I'm an alien and stranger here (see 1 Peter). And worship isn't the place to exalt a nation, but rather a Savior whose Kingdom is what deserves my highest allegiance. The greatest freedom I live in is the freedom given by Christ (cf Gal 5:1), and I can have that in a communist jail cell as easily as I can in my American living room.

Very well put!

 

[jaigner]

I love this country, and I appreciate the sacrifice of those who died so I can live in freedom. But I'm an alien and stranger here (see 1 Peter). And worship isn't the place to exalt a nation, but rather a Savior whose Kingdom is what deserves my highest allegiance. The greatest freedom I live in is the freedom given by Christ (cf Gal 5:1), and I can have that in a communist jail cell as easily as I can in my American living room.

This is beautifully put, friend. I think those who live in persecution probably have a drastically increased appreciation for Christ's freedom in their lives. To assert that we enjoy it more than they in our places of comfort is, in my opinion, simply not so.

 

[Revmitchell]

I mix God and home, God and work, God and country etc.. To do otherwise would be to live a double life contrary to the word of God.