The Thief on the Cross

[DHK]

DHK,

I ask you questions.

What is a 'repent'?

Do the Early Church people during between 30 A.D. to 95 A.D., while N.T. books were continue written, - understood the word, "repent"?

What is the repent of???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Repent means a change of mind. In respect to salvation it is a change of mind from rebellion against God and the sinful lifestyle one was living, and then a change of mind toward God, making that change that now I will submit to the authority of God.

I have changed my mind with respect to God. Once it was rebellious; now it is submissive. That is repentance. It happens when one puts their faith in Christ. It is the flip side of faith. Faith and Biblical repentance go hand in hand. Obviously if one puts their faith in Christ, they are repenting, or changing their mind about who can save them and change their lives.

It is an impossibility for any unsaved person to repent from their sins.
You try the test. You can't even remember all the sins of your lifetime, let alone repent from then. How can you repent from each individual sin if you can't even remember them. Repent of all your sins is impossible, impractical, and unbiblical. You would be all day and then some trying to remember and repent of each individual sin in your life and then repenting of each one. "Repent of all your sins" Impossible!

 

[Darrenss1]

Repent means a change of mind. In respect to salvation it is a change of mind from rebellion against God and the sinful lifestyle one was living, and then a change of mind toward God, making that change that now I will submit to the authority of God.

The Book of Acts is a great place to show how the call to "repent" was accepted and they responded by believing and saved as a result of believing on the Lord Jesus christ. That's is always the case, repent BY believing in the context of the terms of salvation.

Example -
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
2:44 And all that BELIEVED were together, and had all things common;


Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

And so on... The bible says those whom believed were saved, even if they were called to repent, they repsonded by believing.

Darren

 

[BobRyan]

Good point.

And Romans 10 is a good place to see belief and confession preceeding "salvation".

"With the heart man believes...and with the mouth he confesses RESULTING in salvation".

That same point at which man can BELIEVE and then CONFESS is the context is in which confession of sin and repentance is also found.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In this quote we notice that repentance preceeds both forgiveness AND salvation

,


John follows that same order - repent and then forgiveness 1John 1:9

Your argument above must imagine a case of being saved but not forgiven of any sin -- and then someone repents for forgiveness of sin. But in fact a key purpose of salvation is to avoid the condemnation of sin - the 2nd death. There is no such thing as saved but still owing the 2nd death for all of your own sins. If such were the case - what are you saved from???


Refusing to repent - is to remain condemned and lost.

Matt 11:20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.

It is the sinner that is called to repentance.

Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
in Christ,

Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

The gospel commission -

Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Paul summarizes his own Gospel ministry -

Acts 26:20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.


2Cor 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.


Rev 2:16 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

DHK said -
You haven't produced a single verse that says that one must repent of all their sins; not one.

Where you do not see repentance -- the text SHOWS repentance to be necessary. Yet according to your model - repentance should not even be possible here

Acts 26:20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.


2Cor 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Where you do not see repentance -- the text SHOWS repentance to be necessary. Yet according to your model - repentance should not even be possible here

Acts 26:20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.


2Cor 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

in Christ,

Bob

I said a correct definition of repentance is necessary.
It is impossible for one to repent of all their sins, though many preachers preach this. It is an impossible act to follow. That is not what repentance is.
My challenge to you again:
Where in the NT does it say: Repent of your sins in order to be saved.
The answer is obvious. It doesn't.

 

[Darrenss1]

I said a correct definition of repentance is necessary.
It is impossible for one to repent of all their sins, though many preachers preach this. It is an impossible act to follow.

And it becomes a confusing mixed message. You're saved by faith if ye repent of all your sins? OR you're saved by faith yes but if you continue on in sin you will lose your salvation. Either way, no one actually is saved because repent of your sins is added to faith as an extra. What timeframe are we talking about between the time a person first intends to believe in Christ by faith (accoridng to eph 2:8) and the time he/she finally succeeds in repenting (in the strength of their flesh and not the Holy Spirit)?

Darren

 

[Darron Steele]

...What timeframe are we talking about between the time a person first intends to believe in Christ by faith (accoridng to eph 2:8) and the time he/she finally succeeds in repenting (in the strength of their flesh and not the Holy Spirit)?

Darren

Time interval between faith and repentance = 0.

You cannot genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and not simultaneously repent of living out of harmony with His will. The proposed attempt distinguish repentance as a separate thing from faith is not realistic.

 

[Darrenss1]

Time interval between faith and repentance = 0.

In the context of repenting of your sins, as in stop sinning? That was the context Bob used for repentence.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Time interval between faith and repentance = 0.

I guess what I'm trying to point out is how does a definition of "repent" affect the conditions whereby we recieved eternal life according to eph 2:8?

How does that work in real terms? Can a sinner walk into Bob's church, asking what do I need to be saved and walked out saved the same day?

What if the sinner who was saved on sunday (or saturday) is seen by a member of the church during the week "sinning" will they be told that they are not saved because they said they would repent of their sins but clearly that didn't take? To me its a mixed message.

Darren

 

[Lux et veritas]

The thief said:
"Lord remember me when you enter into your kingdom."

Jesus said:
"Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."

There is no mention of "repenting of sins." Where do you get that from? Such a concept is unbiblical.

He called Christ, "Lord". That is a confession.

He spoke of Christ's kingdom - He recognized that battered, bruised and bleeding Person hanging next to him was a King.

He asked Christ to "remember" him. That was a plea for mercy.

To read this incident and say that because it does not explicitly state he did not "repent", repentance was not necessary for the thief's salvation, is simply bizarre.

I'm sure there was more conversation between Christ and this thief, though we don't know it, but what we do know is the the Bible does not ever contradict itself, and we always are to interpret the less clear portions by the more clear ones.

 

[Lux et veritas]

Not the faith to believe in Christ. That verse was written to Christians. You are taking it out of context.

You are kidding, right? I hope so. Let's read the whole verse (Romans 10:17)
"SO THEN faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God".

SO THEN links it to the verses before. What is Paul speaking of in the previous verses? The 'methodology' of salvation. He was writing to Christians, but he was writing ABOUT how the lost are saved!!! Just so as we can see it in its context, here are the verses preceding v.17.

Romans 10:13-17
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom
they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that
preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Lux et veritas]

Only if repentance is Biblically defined, is it necessary.
Nowhere in the NT do we find any command for one to repent of their sins in order to be saved. That is not a Biblical command, nor a requirement of salvation.

Try Acts 17:30
God ... now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[Darrenss1]

Try Acts 17:30
God ... now commandeth all men every where to repent:

There is no question that repent was part of the "call" to believe in Christ but the question here is how does repent function as a means to be saved?? In the book of acts the call to "repent" was followed simply by those whom "believed", that is in line with Eph 2:8. However to insert a definition into "repent" and make it "repent of sins", completely changes the context.

Acts 17: 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

I would have thought this was an easy point to understand..

Darren

 

[Darron Steele]

...What timeframe are we talking about between the time a person first intends to believe in Christ by faith (accoridng to eph 2:8) and the time he/she finally succeeds in repenting (in the strength of their flesh and not the Holy Spirit)?

Darren

Time interval between faith and repentance = 0.

You cannot genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and not simultaneously repent of living out of harmony with His will. The proposed attempt distinguish repentance as a separate thing from faith is not realistic.

I guess what I'm trying to point out is how does a definition of "repent" affect the conditions whereby we recieved eternal life according to eph 2:8?

How does that work in real terms? Can a sinner walk into Bob's church, asking what do I need to be saved and walked out saved the same day?

What if the sinner who was saved on sunday (or saturday) is seen by a member of the church during the week "sinning" will they be told that they are not saved because they said they would repent of their sins but clearly that didn't take? To me its a mixed message.

Darren

I understood your point, and I was essentially agreeing with it.

Those who deny salvation by faith usually want to rip repentance away from faith, claim that faith and repentance are two separate things, and use that artificial separation to deny salvation by faith.

My point is that there is no separation between repentance and faith.

A person can assent to the authority of Jesus Christ without resolving to follow Him, in which case s/he obviously does not really believe He is Lord. A person who has come to really believe on Jesus Christ as Lord cannot show a true gap between coming to that conviction and repenting of living out of harmony with His will.

When the Bible talks about faith unto salvation, calling us to repent is a description of that faith. When Scripture talks of the faith of saved people, that they have repented goes without saying.

 

[Darrenss1]

I understood your point, and I was essentially agreeing with it.

Those who deny salvation by faith usually want to rip repentance away from faith, claim that faith and repentance are two separate things, and use that artificial separation to deny salvation by faith.

My point is that there is no separation between repentance and faith.

A person can assent to the authority of Jesus Christ without resolving to follow Him, in which case s/he obviously does not really believe He is Lord. A person who has come to really believe on Jesus Christ as Lord cannot show a true gap between coming to that conviction and repenting of living out of harmony with His will.

When the Bible talks about faith unto salvation, calling us to repent is a description of that faith. When Scripture talks of the faith of saved people, that they have repented goes without saying.

Agree 100%!! :thumbs:

Darren

 

[Lux et veritas]

There is no question that repent was part of the "call" to believe in Christ but the question here is how does repent function as a means to be saved?? In the book of acts the call to "repent" was followed simply by those whom "believed", that is in line with Eph 2:8. However to insert a definition into "repent" and make it "repent of sins", completely changes the context.
Acts 17: 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

I would have thought this was an easy point to understand..

Darren

If a sinner is called to repent, if he is not repenting of his sins, then what is he 'repenting' of?

If Christ calls me to "come", is He not implying that in 'coming' to Him, I must 'leave the world'? Just because all the words are not in a sentence do not mean they are not implied in the action.

When we are commanded to repent, it is nothing short of linguistic manipulation followed by mental gymnastics to say that it does not mean to repent of my sins.

 

[DHK]

He called Christ, "Lord". That is a confession.

He spoke of Christ's kingdom - He recognized that battered, bruised and bleeding Person hanging next to him was a King.

He asked Christ to "remember" him. That was a plea for mercy.

To read this incident and say that because it does not explicitly state he did not "repent", repentance was not necessary for the thief's salvation, is simply bizarre.

I'm sure there was more conversation between Christ and this thief, though we don't know it, but what we do know is the the Bible does not ever contradict itself, and we always are to interpret the less clear portions by the more clear ones.

Paul said to the Philippian jailor: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." What is interesting is that he did NOT say: "Repent and believe and thou shalt be saved." Why? Why, if repentance was so necessary, did Paul not state it? He simply commanded the jailor to believe, and that is all.

The answer lies in the definition of "repentance." Repentance is the flip side of faith. If one believes he automatically repents. The two go hand in hand. One cannot have Biblical faith without repenting. It doesn't even have to be mentioned. The way that the COC defines repentance, it becomes a work just like baptism is a work, and thus their salvation is a works-based salvation--totally unsciptural.

Salvation is a change of mind. It is a change of mind with respect to God. When one puts their faith in Christ they are changing their mind about their opposition to God in the past, and changing their mind toward their submission to God now and in the future. It is a 180 degree turn about. It is turning around from rebellion to submission.
If a Muslim repents, he puts his faith in Christ.
Once his faith was in Allah; now his faith is in Christ. That is repentance. It is the flip side of faith. That is confession. The converted Muslim now confesses Christ, not Allah. It is also included in faith. It is simply the outward expression of his faith. Baptism is a work that will follow sometime after his conversion to Christ at a later date in obedience to that faith in Christ. If he dies before that time (like the thief on the cross), it does not affect his salvation. It has no bearing on it.

I repeat: Nowhere in the NT does it say that one must repent of all their sins in order to be saved.

 

[DHK]

You are kidding, right? I hope so. Let's read the whole verse (Romans 10:17)
"SO THEN faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God".

SO THEN links it to the verses before. What is Paul speaking of in the previous verses? The 'methodology' of salvation. He was writing to Christians, but he was writing ABOUT how the lost are saved!!! Just so as we can see it in its context, here are the verses preceding v.17.

Romans 10:13-17
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom
they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that
preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Why did you stop at verse 17? Why not get the full context. Read the rest of the chapter right down to verse 21?

Romans 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

The Scripture is basically talking about Israel. Even verse 16, that precedes verse 17 is a quote from Isaiah. Israel had heard the Word of God many times over, and had still rejected the Saviour. Isaiah's complaint was: "Who has believed our report?" The answer was: "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Where doe is say that faith is a "gift of God," except for believers. It doesn't.

We all (saved and unsaved alike) practice faith every day. I put my keys in my ignition of my car. When I turn them, in faith I trust that my car will start. I have no guarantees. The object of my faith here is my car. The other day my car did not start. Did my faith fail me. No. Man is fallible, and the Ford company is composed of fallible men who produce fallible products that aren't perfect. But we can put our faith in a perfect God, who has written a perfect book, who will never fail. Faith is confidence in the word of another. Would you rather put your confidence in the word of the Ford dealership or put your confidence in the Lord. Would you rather put your confidence in Obama or in the Lord? Who or what is the object of your faith. In whom or what do you put your confidence in? Usually the confidence of the rich is in their money. They put their trust and faith in their riches to see them through life.

Where does that faith come from. It doesn't come from God. When an unbeliever comes to God, his faith comes from himself. He can decide to put his faith or confidence in God or in his riches. He must make the choice. It is his choice to make. He must decide what to put his faith in. God does not give him faith to put in his riches. God does not give him faith to put in Christ. It is that simple.

 

[Darrenss1]

If a sinner is called to repent, if he is not repenting of his sins, then what is he 'repenting' of?

When we are commanded to repent, it is nothing short of linguistic manipulation followed by mental gymnastics to say that it does not mean to repent of my sins.

Ok, humor me, which sins does one need to "repent of" before they can be saved? All of them or just some? Do you have a list of good sins vs bad sins? What you are suggesting is completely countermanding to Eph 2:8 and the examples of those whom believed in Acts.

Again, its a mixed message, are you saying God will hold His gift of eternal life back until He sees real change in their lives first, therefore believing is a waste of time until one show works of repentance? Where does the bible even remotely suggest that? This absolutely turns foundational bible truths on it head.

How is this not salvation by good works and NOT of faith alone?

Darren

 

[Lux et veritas]

Why did you stop at verse 17?

Because that's where you did. You quoted verse 17. I was dealing with your quote.

Why did you ONLY quote verse 17?