You disprove your own point. The fact is that Saul, as an unsaved man, did resist the Holy Spirit, and was not saved at the time that he resisted. Thus the Holy Spirit could and was resisted by Paul, and still is by others. This fact is clearly evident.
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The Thief on the Cross
- Thread starter JSM17
- Start date
So the God that saves us according to the good pleasure of His will, that doeth His will among the army of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth, who sitteth upon the circle of the earth and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers, who shall save His people from their sins - this God can be resisted by His own creation? His efforts to save can be foiled by the hard heartedness of man? That just doesn't add up. Not one given from Father to Son shall be lost.
Furthermore, Paul did resist the external ministry of the word, without question. He made a havock of the church, persecuting the saints of God. He was yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples when he sought letters of the high priest to go down to Damascus and seek those that followed this way, to put them in bonds and deliver them to the Jewish authorities. Yet, on that road to Damascus, he was struck down. The proud Jewish man who was zealous for the traditions of his fathers and persecuted the followers of the Lord that bought him, was reduced to asking, "Lord, who are thou?" It pleased God in His time to call Paul by His grace and reveal His Son in him. Paul was irrestibly called and humbly replied, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do." This man later wrote of this calling to the church at Corinth: "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto them which are called, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." The gospel call is to some a stumblingblock or foolishness. But, unto those from among those groups that are called, this gospel call is now effective. To these, the called according to His purpose, is Christ power and wisdom. His gospel is now the power of God to them. Obviously, this call is distinguished from the gospel call, for the latter is ineffective to some, as it was to Paul. It is able to be resisted, and verily is by some. This call that renders Christ power and wisdom to both Jews and Gentiles is effectual. It is irrestible. It is a call from God Himself, to the heart of the sinner, bringing him/her from death unto life. A few verses down from where we were in 1 Corinthians Paul tells them this: "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us widsom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption." God made Christ to us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. If Christ is wisdom to you today it is because God made him wisdom to you - you that are in Christ where all spiritual blessings are bestowed upon us by the Father.
Furthermore, Paul did resist the external ministry of the word, without question. He made a havock of the church, persecuting the saints of God. He was yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples when he sought letters of the high priest to go down to Damascus and seek those that followed this way, to put them in bonds and deliver them to the Jewish authorities. Yet, on that road to Damascus, he was struck down. The proud Jewish man who was zealous for the traditions of his fathers and persecuted the followers of the Lord that bought him, was reduced to asking, "Lord, who are thou?" It pleased God in His time to call Paul by His grace and reveal His Son in him. Paul was irrestibly called and humbly replied, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do." This man later wrote of this calling to the church at Corinth: "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto them which are called, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." The gospel call is to some a stumblingblock or foolishness. But, unto those from among those groups that are called, this gospel call is now effective. To these, the called according to His purpose, is Christ power and wisdom. His gospel is now the power of God to them. Obviously, this call is distinguished from the gospel call, for the latter is ineffective to some, as it was to Paul. It is able to be resisted, and verily is by some. This call that renders Christ power and wisdom to both Jews and Gentiles is effectual. It is irrestible. It is a call from God Himself, to the heart of the sinner, bringing him/her from death unto life. A few verses down from where we were in 1 Corinthians Paul tells them this: "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us widsom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption." God made Christ to us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. If Christ is wisdom to you today it is because God made him wisdom to you - you that are in Christ where all spiritual blessings are bestowed upon us by the Father.
I have been reading everyone's comments and was just wondering. Why would the draw of God for salvation be irresistable but the draw of God for service and holiness be resisted all the time? We see multitudes of Christians who consistently resist God's draw on them to worship and serve Him.
Could Paul have resisted God after being saved by God and not become an Apostle? God saved Paul and Paul had no choice, but Paul then had a choice to not serve?
Paul was struck down by Jesus Himself on the road to Damascus, but I believe he still could have rejected the voice, he could have hardened his heart and convinced himself the voice and blindness was a curse or deception from satan. Jesus performed miracles and many who saw the miracles said he was a devil. Why would they observe a lame man walk and give satan the credit? These men actually saw all the good miracles Jesus performed and still hardened their hearts and rejected him. You don't think Paul could have done the same?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
John 12:32 tells us that Jesus "draws ALL" not merely the "FEW" of Matt 7 that are on the narrow road.
John 6 tells us that ALL who are drawn can come - but it does not tell us that all who are drawn WILL come to God.
John 1 tells us that Christ is the light that "coming into the world enlightens EVERY man".
The drawing and enlightening of God "enables all that depravity disables" when it comes to the active ability of the will to choose life.
Once life is chosen - the result is salvation as Romans 10 points out "with the heart man believes... and with the mouth he confeses RESULTING in salvation".
There is no mention at all in scripture of "irresistable drawing". And that means that not only are the 3 point Calvinists right in that regard - so also are the Arminians.
in Christ,
Bob
John 6 tells us that ALL who are drawn can come - but it does not tell us that all who are drawn WILL come to God.
John 1 tells us that Christ is the light that "coming into the world enlightens EVERY man".
The drawing and enlightening of God "enables all that depravity disables" when it comes to the active ability of the will to choose life.
Once life is chosen - the result is salvation as Romans 10 points out "with the heart man believes... and with the mouth he confeses RESULTING in salvation".
There is no mention at all in scripture of "irresistable drawing". And that means that not only are the 3 point Calvinists right in that regard - so also are the Arminians.
in Christ,
Bob
"John 6 tells us that ALL who are drawn can come - but it does not tell us that all who are drawn WILL come to God."
John 6:37 - "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." It can't get any clearer than that. How do they come to Him? "No man can come unto me, except the Father which hast sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." So, all that the Father gave to the Son will come to the Son by the drawing of the Father. Thus the drawing of the Father must be efficacious.
Let me also speak concerning "all", "whole" and "every". First, concerning the all in John 12:32: what is the context? Some Greeks come and say, "sir, we would see Jesus." Jesus then begins to talk about His upcoming sufferings, death, victory over Satan, and bodily resurrection. Then He tells His disciples that when He is lifted up (signifying what death He would die) He would draw "all men" unto Him. What did Jesus command after He arose? The gospel to be preached to Jews and Gentiles. Why does the bible so often refer to "all men", "whole world", "every man", etc? Who wrote the NT and to whom was the gospel first delivered? Jews. The Jews formerly believed that the blessings of the Messiah was for them only. Jesus and the apostles are telling us in the scriptures that God has people all over the globe and that the blessings of this Messiah to extend to all manner of people - Jews, Gentiles, men, women, children, etc. Otherwise you have contradictions where God says He would have all men to come to a knowledge of the truth but is hiding it from some, where the bible says Christ lights every man but that some men are blinded lest the light of the gospel should shine unto them.
John 6:37 - "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." It can't get any clearer than that. How do they come to Him? "No man can come unto me, except the Father which hast sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." So, all that the Father gave to the Son will come to the Son by the drawing of the Father. Thus the drawing of the Father must be efficacious.
Let me also speak concerning "all", "whole" and "every". First, concerning the all in John 12:32: what is the context? Some Greeks come and say, "sir, we would see Jesus." Jesus then begins to talk about His upcoming sufferings, death, victory over Satan, and bodily resurrection. Then He tells His disciples that when He is lifted up (signifying what death He would die) He would draw "all men" unto Him. What did Jesus command after He arose? The gospel to be preached to Jews and Gentiles. Why does the bible so often refer to "all men", "whole world", "every man", etc? Who wrote the NT and to whom was the gospel first delivered? Jews. The Jews formerly believed that the blessings of the Messiah was for them only. Jesus and the apostles are telling us in the scriptures that God has people all over the globe and that the blessings of this Messiah to extend to all manner of people - Jews, Gentiles, men, women, children, etc. Otherwise you have contradictions where God says He would have all men to come to a knowledge of the truth but is hiding it from some, where the bible says Christ lights every man but that some men are blinded lest the light of the gospel should shine unto them.
RAdam,
You answer as a Christian should. Thank you for speaking for some others too. God bless.
GE
You answer as a Christian should. Thank you for speaking for some others too. God bless.
GE
Originally Posted by RAdam
As far as Acts 7:51 goes, it has been clearly proven in times past by many able ministers of Jesus Christ that this passage is not talking about resisting the Holy Spirit in regeneration, but merely the outward ministry of the word. This is proven by Paul, who was then present. He resisted at this time, consenting to the murder of Stephen. Later, on the road to Damascus, he is irrestibly drawn by God in regeneration, and goes on to preach the faith which once he tried to destroy.
DHK:
You disprove your own point. The fact is that Saul, as an unsaved man, did resist the Holy Spirit, and was not saved at the time that he resisted. Thus the Holy Spirit could and was resisted by Paul, and still is by others. This fact is clearly evident.
GE:
i cannot see any difference; you both say the same thing; you both say the right thing; or am I blind?
As far as Acts 7:51 goes, it has been clearly proven in times past by many able ministers of Jesus Christ that this passage is not talking about resisting the Holy Spirit in regeneration, but merely the outward ministry of the word. This is proven by Paul, who was then present. He resisted at this time, consenting to the murder of Stephen. Later, on the road to Damascus, he is irrestibly drawn by God in regeneration, and goes on to preach the faith which once he tried to destroy.
DHK:
You disprove your own point. The fact is that Saul, as an unsaved man, did resist the Holy Spirit, and was not saved at the time that he resisted. Thus the Holy Spirit could and was resisted by Paul, and still is by others. This fact is clearly evident.
GE:
i cannot see any difference; you both say the same thing; you both say the right thing; or am I blind?
GE:
Again, what RAdam says, is true and correct; so is what you say, DHK. Only, you forget that even the regenerated and for ever saved, still resist the Holy Spirit, and will for as long they are not glorified in the resurrection.
All men always resist God Those saved are all saved while being enmies of God - that is, despite their resisting the mercies of God's love. Grace overcomes depravity in the saved; it will only in the resurrection obliterate depravity in the saved.
saturneptune
New Member
You know, I would think that a C of C type would be the last to bring up the thief on the cross.
Why? The thief on the cross is saved like all people in scripture, faith and obedience to what God commands us to do. It is His blessing we must simply submit to Him. We submit in obedience because of faith.
1 Peter 1:22, 23
22Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,
23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
Well, he wasn't baptized...which kind of messes up your view of baptism...
That text doesn't prove that obedience brings on regeneration, but quite the opposite: that regeneration is the motivation for obedience. Peter is exhorting those that have been born of God to love the brethren, not telling the unregenerate to love in order to be regenerated.