The Time is Near - He who is Righteous will be Righteous still

[Winman]

So then for your purposes it really only needed to say "to the lost be aware that there is a time coming soon when the filthy will remain filthy still and the unrighteous will remain righteous still" .

There was no real purpose in your view to say to the saved "there is a time coming in the future when the holy will remain holy still and the righteous will remain righteous still".

Yet the text presents both - as the change that is coming in the future.

Bible details matter even in this case. That is why we make such a fuss about "sola scriptura" testing of doctrine.

If just "ignoring details when they don't fit a certain tradition" were the acceptable form of "sola scriptura testing" there could never have been a Protestant Reformation.

in Christ,

Bob

No, it tells us a person cannot lose salvation in heaven. But that does not mean a person can lose salvation now.

You cannot simply make scripture say what you DESIRE it to say. This is what many here at BB do. They say Romans 3 teaches inability when it says no such thing.

Now, let's look at the scripture closely.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Now honestly Bob, does this verse say one word about a saved person being able to lose their salvation up until this day? Does it?

It simply tells you that the unsaved will forever remain filthy and unjust, and the saved will forever remain righteous and holy.

Don't read into scripture what is not there, this is how much false doctrine is formed.

 

[BobRyan]

No, it tells us a person cannot lose salvation in heaven. But that does not mean a person can lose salvation now.

Would you have argued in that before the "time that is coming" - people in heaven can lose salvation?? Enoch? Elijah? Those in Matt 27 that were resurrected and taken to heaven?

BTW the text does not say "in heaven the filthy will be filthy still" nor does it say "the time is near - when in heaven the holy will be holy still".

So then we are left with the condition of things on earth - and then...
Doesn't that make my point? How is that helping OSAS for now?

Now, let's look at the scripture closely.

Agreed. Starting in vs 10 because Bible details matter in Rev 22

Rev 22:10 "For the time is NEAR" ...
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Now honestly Bob, does this verse say one word about a saved person being able to lose their salvation up until this day? Does it?

Does not say anything about the lost today being able to accept salvation. But that is understood.

Does say that there is a future time coming when the lost will no longer be able to cross over and become saved.

That is almost impossible to miss. I am not sure that you miss it either.

Thus you are willing to admit to the case for the lost - but the OSAS condition you see in the text for the saved - you are not willing to let be assigned to that "The time is NEAR" future condition because you need to to say "The time has always been since Adam to this day that the holy remain holy still".

It simply tells you that the unsaved will forever remain filthy and unjust, and the saved will forever remain righteous and holy.

Indeed it does - but it says this is the case in a future time. And as we all know - the lost DO accept salvation now.

So also are the saved subject to the Gal 5:4 problem of "fallen from Grace" and "Severed FROM Christ".

So also are the saved given the warning of Romans 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

Would you have argued in that before the "time that is coming" - people in heaven can lose salvation?? Enoch? Elijah? Those in Matt 27 that were resurrected and taken to heaven?

I really don't understand what you are saying here. Could you rephrase this?

BTW the text does not say "in heaven the filthy will be filthy still" nor does it say "the time is near - when in heaven the holy will be holy still".

So then we are left with the condition of things on earth - and then...
Doesn't that make my point? How is that helping OSAS for now?

Well, the chapter begins with us in the New Jerusalem with a pure river of life and the tree of life.

Agreed. Starting in vs 10 because Bible details matter in Rev 22

Rev 22:10 "For the time is NEAR" ...
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Again, so what? It is simply saying the filthy and unjust will continue to be that way still, the righteous and holy will continue to be that way still. That is all it says.

Does not say anything about the lost today being able to accept salvation. But that is understood.

Because there is much scripture that says a lost person can accept Christ and be saved.

That is why I do not believe a person can lose salvation in this life, because I believe there is MUCH scripture that shows our salvation is secure.

Does say that there is a future time coming when the lost will no longer be able to cross over and become saved.

The unsaved cannot get saved NOW after death.

That is almost impossible to miss. I am not sure that you miss it either.

You are adding to what it says. I try never to do that.

Thus you are willing to admit to the case for the lost - but the OSAS condition you see in the text for the saved - you are not willing to let be assigned to that "The time is NEAR" future condition because you need to to say "The time has always been since Adam to this day that the holy remain holy still".

No, the lost cannot get saved now after death, nothing changes for them either.

This verse simply tells us the lost will never be able to get saved in the next life, and the saved will not be able to become lost in the next life. That is all it says.

Indeed it does - but it says this is the case in a future time. And as we all know - the lost DO accept salvation now.

So also are the saved subject to the Gal 5:4 problem of "fallen from Grace" and "Severed FROM Christ".

So also are the saved given the warning of Romans 11.

in Christ,

Bob

Any lost person can accept Christ in this life at any time before they die, even on their deathbed. But once they die it is too late.

No, Romans 11 is a warning to the Gentiles as a people that they will be cut off like the Jews if they go off generally in unbelief the way the Jews did.

Romans 11 is not speaking of individuals, it is contrasting the Jews and Gentiles as a whole.

 

[BobRyan]

10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

I
Again, so what? It is simply saying the filthy and unjust will continue to be that way still, the righteous and holy will continue to be that way still. That is all it says.

We all agree that the lost, the filthly, the unjust are accepting the Gospel today and becoming the righteous. There is no debate on that point. It is true now - it was true in John's day.

But John points to a future change - when that will no longer happen.

That would be fine for the OSAS idea - except that John ALSO includes the OSAS statement along with the no-crossing-over for the lost ,,, no crossing back over for the saved... BOTH as future events.

That "Bible detail" makes a huge difference.

When you try to turn it into "so much no change at all from today" it would be like saying "the time is NEAR - for those who are saved to be saved by grace through faith". We would all choke on the idea that this time had not already fully arrived by the time that John was writing.

That is the problem you have here for OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Thus you are willing to admit to the case for the lost - but the OSAS condition you see in the text for the saved - you are not willing to let be assigned to that "The time is NEAR" future condition because you need to to say "The time has always been since Adam to this day that the holy remain holy still".

No, the lost cannot get saved now after death, nothing changes for them either.

Most Christians would be surprised to learn that this was not already the case since the fall of Adam - and that John saw that idea of "the lost who die in their sins, not crossing over to become saved after having died" as some future state "the time is NEAR" rather than "the time came at the fall of Adam when those who die in their sins could no longer accept the Gospel after having died".

I am surprised each time you suggest that for the Rev 22:10-12 future change that John is pointing out to us via the words of Christ.

10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Any lost person can accept Christ in this life at any time before they die, even on their deathbed. But once they die it is too late.

Aggreed that is true from the fall of Adam onward.

Those saved are saved by grace through faith under the ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-11 -- already the case at the time of the writing of Rev 22.

John does not say that at some future time "the time is NEAR when those saved must be saved by grace through faith". All Christians today would be shocked to learn that such was not already the case at the time of the writing of Rev 22.

You cannot take his prediction of a future state of things and make it "so much no change since the fall of Adam".

it does not work in the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[evangelist-7]

However, the count is now up to 15 verses, which warn ...
A believer must endure with his faith to the end of his life to receive eternal life!

And this brings up a tough and troubling question ...
Exactly what must a believer be doing to ensure that he is enduring in his faith?
I.E. obviously, what are the works which must accompany his faith?

Roberto, I'm only asking you ... for I'ze tired of reading nonsense from others.

Well Romans 2:7-16 give us a pretty good idea of just how the saved saint perseveres.

That's okay, but IMO the new "baker's dozen" thread handles it mucho better ...
... even though 'tis very concise: only listing a small sample of available passages ...
after allski, 13 is only 13!
.

 

[The Biblicist]

On the Calvinism vs Arminianism board section - one of our "non cal" friends made this case for a non-Cal support of OSAS - (no free will) after one is saved - but free will before being saved.

Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”


Rev 22 KJV
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.


-------------------------


Until that point in time though we DO have the changes - the wicked turn to righteousness and the saints fall from grace, severed from Grace, forgiveness revoked - lose salvation.

All can agree that at the 2nd coming when all the wicked are destroyed and the righteous are raptured up to heaven with Christ for 1000 years - that the saints will not cross over to become the wicked, and the dead wicked on earth will not switch to become saints by accepting the Gospel.

But according to Rev 15:8 the time that is predicted (that future point) in Rev 22:10-11 actually takes place when Christ ends His ministry in the heavenly Sanctuary - and the 7 last plagues begin. (see chapter 16).


So if "He that is righteous will be righteous still" is taken to be a form of OSAS (witch I think almost all agree to) then we know it has not yet happened for it occurs as a change - at a time when the lost also cannot cross over to become saints.

Certainly true at the 2nd coming, and certainly true in Rev 15:8 prior to the 7 last plagues.

It was not the case before then - for evangelism is still going on.

Thus OSAS cannot be true until that future event - that future predicted "change".

Thoughts?

in Christ,
Bob

As usual you jerk scripture right out of its context:

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


Verse 11 is referring to saved people in various stages at the point of Christ's return. The issue is "REWARDS" (v. 12) not eternal wrath. Paul refers to this precise time and these rewards in 1 Cor. 3:11-15. Saved people will be rewarded DIFFERENTLY among themselves and it is determined in this life time with no chance of change at the coming of Christ.

1. 1 Cor. 3:12-15 speaks of DIFFERENCES between the saved and different rewards.

2. Jesus is simply saying that rewards are set in stone by the condition of the saved person when time runs out.

3. The fact that saved people can be found in all stages of progressive sanctification and none can be found perfectly sanctified demands there are degrees of sin found in their life that has not been removed by glorification.

4. Not all the saved live in the city (Rev. 21:24) nor eat of the fruit of the tree of life (Rev. 22:2) as those outside the city who are "saved" (Rev. 21:24) partake only of the leaves. Hence, you can be "saved" and dwell on the new earth OUTSIDE the city and you can be "saved" and not partake of the fruit of the tree of life but only the "leaves."

5. For rewards in heaven there must be differences between the saved where salvation is not the issue but rather the differences are found in the "works" performed as in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 as there are various materials that Paul explicitly says represent various "works" of saved people which do not have any association with eternal salvation as Paul considers all works "burned" and yet the worker is "saved".

 

[Winman]

Aggreed that is true from the fall of Adam onward.

Those saved are saved by grace through faith under the ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-11 -- already the case at the time of the writing of Rev 22.

John does not say that at some future time "the time is NEAR when those saved must be saved by grace through faith". All Christians today would be shocked to learn that such was not already the case at the time of the writing of Rev 22.

You cannot take his prediction of a future state of things and make it "so much no change since the fall of Adam".

it does not work in the text.

in Christ,

Bob

Revelation 22 is when this present world is all over (Rev 21:1). There will not be new people born. Everyone who was ever born has died, and now we are in the eternal state. And verse 11 is simply saying the filthy and unjust will remain filthy and unjust, and that the holy and righteous will remain holy and righteous.

You can't just add to scripture what it is not saying, and that is what you are attempting to do.

Just read scripture for what it says.

 

[Winman]

As usual you jerk scripture right out of its context:

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


Verse 11 is referring to saved people in various stages at the point of Christ's return. The issue is "REWARDS" (v. 12) not eternal wrath. Paul refers to this precise time and these rewards in 1 Cor. 3:11-15. Saved people will be rewarded DIFFERENTLY among themselves and it is determined in this life time with no chance of change at the coming of Christ.

1. 1 Cor. 3:12-15 speaks of DIFFERENCES between the saved and different rewards.

2. Jesus is simply saying that rewards are set in stone by the condition of the saved person when time runs out.

3. The fact that saved people can be found in all stages of progressive sanctification and none can be found perfectly sanctified demands there are degrees of sin found in their life that has not been removed by glorification.

4. Not all the saved live in the city (Rev. 21:24) nor eat of the fruit of the tree of life (Rev. 22:2) as those outside the city who are "saved" (Rev. 21:24) partake only of the leaves. Hence, you can be "saved" and dwell on the new earth OUTSIDE the city and you can be "saved" and not partake of the fruit of the tree of life but only the "leaves."

5. For rewards in heaven there must be differences between the saved where salvation is not the issue but rather the differences are found in the "works" performed as in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 as there are various materials that Paul explicitly says represent various "works" of saved people which do not have any association with eternal salvation as Paul considers all works "burned" and yet the worker is "saved".

Total nonsense, saved people are neither filthy or unjust. This is speaking of the "dead" that were cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 21:8).

Rev 22:11 is simply saying the unsaved, the filthy and unjust will remain in this state for eternity, and that the saved, the righteous and the holy shall remain in this state for eternity.

And those saved persons outside the city are allowed in.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The nations that are saved will be allowed to enter into the city. It is those who are cast into the lake of fire outside the city that cannot enter in.

And Revelations 22:2 does not say the nations that are saved cannot eat of the tree of life.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

All of the saved will be allowed to enter the city and eat of the tree of life.

 

[steaver]

Many thanks to Steaver for pointing this out to me. I thought it was simply an affirming post - and missed the question.






Well Romans 2:7-16 give us a pretty good idea of just how the saved saint perseveres.

==========================

Romans 2

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
10 …glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Remember(11 For there is no partiality with God. )

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


The same future Gospel Judgment and Perseverance topic is provided in Rev 14

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7 and he said with a loud voice, "" Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.'

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.


==========================

And of course there is always Romans 8:5-16.

in Christ,

Bob

I guess Bob doesn't like your approach E7 of asking for him to list the works required for eternal life. Maybe he is not the buddy you think he is for agreeing with your doctrine after all.

I'm sure you noticed how he deflected your direct question, as everyone else who lives here knows his play book.

Maybe you could give him the list of works, spell it out for him, and then say "Do you agree Bob?" But be sure to ask for a yes or no, but I doubt you will get one.

I would be interested to see your list of works.

 

[OldRegular]

On the Calvinism vs Arminianism board section - one of our "non cal" friends made this case for a non-Cal support of OSAS - (no free will) after one is saved - but free will before being saved.

Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”


Rev 22 KJV
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.


-------------------------


Until that point in time though we DO have the changes - the wicked turn to righteousness and the saints fall from grace, severed from Grace, forgiveness revoked - lose salvation.

All can agree that at the 2nd coming when all the wicked are destroyed and the righteous are raptured up to heaven with Christ for 1000 years - that the saints will not cross over to become the wicked, and the dead wicked on earth will not switch to become saints by accepting the Gospel.

But according to Rev 15:8 the time that is predicted (that future point) in Rev 22:10-11 actually takes place when Christ ends His ministry in the heavenly Sanctuary - and the 7 last plagues begin. (see chapter 16).


So if "He that is righteous will be righteous still" is taken to be a form of OSAS (witch I think almost all agree to) then we know it has not yet happened for it occurs as a change - at a time when the lost also cannot cross over to become saints.

Certainly true at the 2nd coming, and certainly true in Rev 15:8 prior to the 7 last plagues.

It was not the case before then - for evangelism is still going on.

Thus OSAS cannot be true until that future event - that future predicted "change".

Thoughts?

in Christ,
Bob

It is a mystery to me why so many people torture and twist Scripture in an attempt to prove that the clear teaching of Scripture is wrong and that God is unable to keep His adopted children for whom Jesus Christ died. Is it that they believe that salvation is not by grace alone but by a little grace and a lot of works? I know that Roman Catholics and Mormons believe such! Certainly Arminians believe that God needs a little, or perhaps a lot, of help in the salvation of His elect.

Now it is possible that the unsaved person who recognizes that there is good and evil may wonder why a Sovereign God allows certain things to happen. But once a person has been saved by the Grace of God, has been given a new heart through regeneration, has been adopted into the family of God, he should understand that the will and work of Satan is not sovereign over the will and work of God but that Satan is in subjection to God and that God will keep those who are His.

The Apostle John in his 1st Epistle tells us that the children of God will sin on occasion:
1 John 1:8-10
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The Apostle Paul also deals with this truth in Romans 6 and 7.

It must be terrifying for anyone to believe that God might abandon them to damnation at any time because of sin, great or small.

 

[saturneptune]

On the Calvinism vs Arminianism board section - one of our "non cal" friends made this case for a non-Cal support of OSAS - (no free will) after one is saved - but free will before being saved.

Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”


Rev 22 KJV
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.


-------------------------


Until that point in time though we DO have the changes - the wicked turn to righteousness and the saints fall from grace, severed from Grace, forgiveness revoked - lose salvation.

All can agree that at the 2nd coming when all the wicked are destroyed and the righteous are raptured up to heaven with Christ for 1000 years - that the saints will not cross over to become the wicked, and the dead wicked on earth will not switch to become saints by accepting the Gospel.

But according to Rev 15:8 the time that is predicted (that future point) in Rev 22:10-11 actually takes place when Christ ends His ministry in the heavenly Sanctuary - and the 7 last plagues begin. (see chapter 16).


So if "He that is righteous will be righteous still" is taken to be a form of OSAS (witch I think almost all agree to) then we know it has not yet happened for it occurs as a change - at a time when the lost also cannot cross over to become saints.

Certainly true at the 2nd coming, and certainly true in Rev 15:8 prior to the 7 last plagues.

It was not the case before then - for evangelism is still going on.

Thus OSAS cannot be true until that future event - that future predicted "change".

Thoughts?

in Christ,
Bob

Yes, I have lots of thoughts. The first one is that you have more faith in a Pharisee than the Lord. My second thought is that your Bible ends at the book of Malachi.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that God is the Creator, the Sustainer, and the Author of salvation? How many times does He say that His grace is sufficient, that He is all we need, faith and trust in Him? Instead of trusting God to guide our lives and make us more like Jesus each day, it is obvious you think we become Marvel Comic superheroes, and in our own power, endure to the end. At least we better, or we will be in a Superman cape burning in hell.

What is your problem, and for that matter, the problem with your whole denomination and its retarded doctrine? Your theology and posts have more in common with Buddhism and Hinduism than Christianity. Through your daily, persistent, human efforts, you one day are going to become part of the great spiritual force in the sky.

Let me ask you this? How does one establish a relationship with the Creator by burdensome rules to follow in your own power for your entire life. In the first place, you cannot do it, and if you could, there would be no relationship, no love, only resentment. Think about trying to make a go of a successful marriage that way.

Yes, the righteous will be righteous in the end, but through the dynamic power of the Holy Spirit, not the feeble efforts of flawed, sinful man. Those that are not righteous in the end did not lose their salvation. They were never saved.

In all of your 27000 posts, the only thing you have accomplished is to teach Baptists that the SDA are more wacked out than the RCC.

 

[BobRyan]

E7 asks

However, the count is now up to 15 verses, which warn ...
A believer must endure with his faith to the end of his life to receive eternal life! (Question based on Romans 2:7-16 as most Bible readers will note)

And this brings up a tough and troubling question ...
Exactly what must a believer be doing to ensure that he is enduring in his faith?
I.E. obviously, what are the works which must accompany his faith? (Question based in James 2:14-24 as most Bible readers will notice)

Well Romans 2:7-16 give us a pretty good idea of just how the saved saint perseveres.

==========================

Romans 2

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
10 …glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Remember(11 For there is no partiality with God. )

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


The same future Gospel Judgment and Perseverance topic is provided in Rev 14

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7 and he said with a loud voice, "" Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.'

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.


==========================

And of course there is always Romans 8:5-16.

I guess Bob doesn't like your approach E7 of asking for him to list the works required for eternal life. Maybe he is not the buddy you ...<obligatory gaming of the quesiton deleted here>

Maybe that sola scriptura answer above is not as disagreeable to E7 as it is to you Steaver.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
On the Calvinism vs Arminianism board section - one of our "non cal" friends made this case for a non-Cal support of OSAS - (no free will) after one is saved - but free will before being saved.

Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”


Rev 22 KJV
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.


-------------------------


Until that point in time though we DO have the changes - the wicked turn to righteousness and the saints fall from grace, severed from Grace, forgiveness revoked - lose salvation.

All can agree that at the 2nd coming when all the wicked are destroyed and the righteous are raptured up to heaven with Christ for 1000 years - that the saints will not cross over to become the wicked, and the dead wicked on earth will not switch to become saints by accepting the Gospel.

But according to Rev 15:8 the time that is predicted (that future point) in Rev 22:10-11 actually takes place when Christ ends His ministry in the heavenly Sanctuary - and the 7 last plagues begin. (see chapter 16).

... you think we become Marvel Comic superheroes, and in our own power, endure to the end. At least we better, or we will be in a Superman cape burning in hell.

What is your problem, and for that matter, the problem with your whole denomination and its retarded<Obligatery non-biblical rant deleted here>.

With such Bible-avoidance responses to the question in the OP - what odd denomination's traditions could not thrive in such a climate?

Surely there is a sola-scriptura "protestant" response.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
On the Calvinism vs Arminianism board section - one of our "non cal" friends made this case for a non-Cal support of OSAS - (no free will) after one is saved - but free will before being saved.

Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”


Rev 22 KJV
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.


-------------------------


Until that point in time though we DO have the changes - the wicked turn to righteousness and the saints fall from grace, severed from Grace, forgiveness revoked - lose salvation.

All can agree that at the 2nd coming when all the wicked are destroyed and the righteous are raptured up to heaven with Christ for 1000 years - that the saints will not cross over to become the wicked, and the dead wicked on earth will not switch to become saints by accepting the Gospel.

But according to Rev 15:8 the time that is predicted (that future point) in Rev 22:10-11 actually takes place when Christ ends His ministry in the heavenly Sanctuary - and the 7 last plagues begin. (see chapter 16).

It is a mystery to me why so many people torture and twist Scripture in an attempt to prove that the clear teaching of Scripture is wrong and that God is unable to keep His adopted children for whom Jesus Christ died. Is it that they believe that salvation is not by grace alone but by a little grace and a lot of works? I know that Roman Catholics and Mormons believe such! Certainly Arminians believe that God needs a little, or perhaps a lot, of help in the salvation of His elect.

Now it is possible that the unsaved person who recognizes that there is good and evil may wonder why a Sovereign God allows certain things to happen. But once a person has been saved by the Grace of God, has been given a new heart through regeneration, has been adopted into the family of God, he should understand that the will and work of Satan is not sovereign over the will and work of God but that Satan is in subjection to God and that God will keep those who are His.

The Apostle John in his 1st Epistle tells us that the children of God will sin on occasion:
1 John 1:8-10
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The question in the OP is not "will saints ever sin".

Rather it is about the Rev 22:10-11 statement that in the future there is coming a time when the lost no longer cross over to accept the Gospel and the saved never cross over to become the lost.

That has to be a wakeup call to those clinging to the tradition of OSAS over the clear teaching of the Word of God because it points to OSAS as a future event - that occurs along with the lost no longer crossing over to accept the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[OldRegular]

That has to be a wakeup call to those clinging to the tradition of OSAS over the clear teaching of the Word of God because it points to OSAS as a future event - that occurs along with the lost no longer crossing over to accept the Gospel.

I have long believed that the term "Once Saved, Always Saved", though true, is a poor way to state the Biblical truth that those God redeems, justifies, and adopts as children He will keep in His care for eternity. The doctrine that God is unable to keep that which He promised is a pathetic, devilish doctrine.

 

[Yeshua1]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
On the Calvinism vs Arminianism board section - one of our "non cal" friends made this case for a non-Cal support of OSAS - (no free will) after one is saved - but free will before being saved.

Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”


Rev 22 KJV
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.


-------------------------


Until that point in time though we DO have the changes - the wicked turn to righteousness and the saints fall from grace, severed from Grace, forgiveness revoked - lose salvation.

All can agree that at the 2nd coming when all the wicked are destroyed and the righteous are raptured up to heaven with Christ for 1000 years - that the saints will not cross over to become the wicked, and the dead wicked on earth will not switch to become saints by accepting the Gospel.

But according to Rev 15:8 the time that is predicted (that future point) in Rev 22:10-11 actually takes place when Christ ends His ministry in the heavenly Sanctuary - and the 7 last plagues begin. (see chapter 16).



The question in the OP is not "will saints ever sin".

Rather it is about the Rev 22:10-11 statement that in the future there is coming a time when the lost no longer cross over to accept the Gospel and the saved never cross over to become the lost.

That has to be a wakeup call to those clinging to the tradition of OSAS over the clear teaching of the Word of God because it points to OSAS as a future event - that occurs along with the lost no longer crossing over to accept the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

was Jesus a liar when he said that ALL the father gave to him willbe raised up, that NONE shall ever perish then?

 

[Yeshua1]

I have long believed that the term "Once Saved, Always Saved", though true, is a poor way to state the Biblical truth that those God redeems, justifies, and adopts as children He will keep in His care for eternity. The doctrine that God is unable to keep that which He promised is a pathetic, devilish doctrine.

Goes back to those advocating true free Will wanting to maintain that even if it means the the sovereign Will of God is unable to overcome the "free will" of man to reject Christ and choose to stay lost!

 

[evangelist-7]

It must be terrifying for anyone to believe that God might
abandon them to damnation at any time because of sin, great or small.

Were the Romans terrified by Paul's teaching in Rom 6:15-23?
Nah ... t'was like how Christians today view their sin.

But, I'm curious ... can you "see" in Rom 6:15-23 ...
how Paul is warning them to STOP being slaves of sin, or else!
(He speaks of eternal death 3 times in 9 verses.)
.