The Trinity

[Martin Marprelate]

Exodus 3:14 (English Translation from LXX): And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.

Whose translation is that? Much better would be "I am the One who is." I think the KJV quite reasonably renders it "I am that I am." 'The Being' makes God sound like an alien. Participles in Greek are much more common than in English and aren't usually translated as such.
You do notice, don't you that God gives His name as ego eimi. That is the transliteration of Ἐγώ εἰμι
καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν.
And God said to Moses, "I AM the One who is.' You will also notice the present tense, which is Greek is continuous. "I continually am what I am continually being.'

Once again, all the Jews knew exactly what our Lord was saying. How come you still haven't got it.?

BTW, I came across this today:

Isaiah 8:13-14. 'sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel.'

1 Peter 2:7-8. 'Unto you therefore which believe he [Christ] is precious but......a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient.'

The 'stone of stumbling and rock of offense' is Jehovah Himself, says Isaiah, but Peter tells us that it is Christ. Therefore Jesus is Jehovah QED.

 

[steaver]

BTW, I came across this today:

Isaiah 8:13-14. 'sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel.'

1 Peter 2:7-8. 'Unto you therefore which believe he [Christ] is precious but......a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient.'

The 'stone of stumbling and rock of offense' is Jehovah Himself, says Isaiah, but Peter tells us that it is Christ. Therefore Jesus is Jehovah QED.

Excellent find! And there are so many more cross references that prove the same. :thumbs:

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver and Martin and others, (Part 1 of 2)

Trevor. Do you really believe God would make this so complicated that the average joe would have to rely upon Greek and Hebrew manuscrips in order to learn the scriptures?

This is one reason why I quoted Tyndale and his translation as “I wilbe”. The KJV was mainly in the hands of Trinitarians, mainly the Church of England with some moderating influence from a few others. The RV and RSV also were products of mainly Trinitarians, but there must have been a few scholars even amongst these, possibly even Trinitarians that suggested the alternative translation “I will be”.

Whose translation is that? Much better would be "I am the One who is." I think the KJV quite reasonably renders it "I am that I am."

I was quoting from a LXX with an English Translation printed by Samuel Bagster London. It does not have a date or preface and I have had this book for years. I have only recently obtained my electronic copy of the LXX, but it has only a word by word analysis, not a direct translation. I prefer the Hebrew and “I will be”.

Many Trinitarians use John 10:30 in support of their beliefs. John 10:30 was introduced by you in the heaven at death thread, and also by BobRyan in the third Post of this thread:

You have this exactly wrong.
1. The LORD is my shepherd.
2. Jesus is the Good Shepherd, therefore
3. Jesus is the LORD. 'I and the Father are one' (John 10:30)

Jesus declared that He and His Father are one. That makes Him God.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

In an earlier Post in this thread I suggested that I would be willing to consider John 10:30-36 in detail.

The reason why I linked John 10:30 with John 10:36 is that I believe the two statements are essentially the same. The Jews objected to both as well as objecting to ALL that Jesus stated in John 10:30-36. Also you continue to use John 10:30 almost in isolation to support your understanding of the Trinity. Also you insist on latching onto the Jews’ response as proof that Jesus is claiming to be God or part of the Trinity. I would be willing to go through John 10:30-36 looking at each word, phrase, verse and overall teaching and meaning.

I feel that I should be patient with both you and Bob on this subject. I attended a SDA Seminar series on Daniel more than 15 years ago, but on one session when many were away due to a Public Holiday, the subject chosen was the Trinity. The Notes or Pamphlet supplied and nearly all the SDAs present suggested John 10:30 as a prime proof-text for the Trinity, while I stated that I believed that Jesus is the Son of God, but could not give an adequate explanation of my position or response to John 10:30. The following is my explanation developed over a number of years since attending that Seminar.

There is a need to look carefully at what Jesus actually says in v30, and also his explanation and response to the Jews in the verses immediately after. Looking at each part in turn:
John 10:30 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one.
The first thing to notice is that the same language that is used for the unity between the Father and Jesus is also used for the unity between Jesus and the immediate and future disciples:
John 17:17-23 (KJV): 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
This shows that the unity in John 10:30 is not speaking of the Trinity, but that God the Father and Jesus have a unity based upon the sanctifying power of the word that had been effectual in him, and a sharing of purpose and character. The disciples are to share in this same unity. Thus in John 10:30 Jesus is not claiming to be God.

The reaction of the Jews to Jesus’ statement is given in v31, but this is followed immediately by Jesus’ answer and consistent with what we saw in John 17, Jesus also draws attention to this unity with His Father by the works that he had done:
John 10:31-32 (KJV): 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
And note Jesus does not claim to work these miracles from his own initiative or power, but “Many good works have I shewed you from my Father”. These miracles were by means of the power given to him from his Father. So again Jesus is not claiming to be God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Martin, (Part 2 of 2)

The Jews did not accept this explanation, but further accused Jesus by saying:
John 10:33 (KJV): The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Like the Trinitarians, for example especially a few Trinitarians on this thread, they assessed that Jesus was stating more, that he was really claiming to be God.

The Jews in John 5 make a similar assessment and accusation, that when Jesus calls God His Father, that he was making himself equal with God:
John 5:15-20 (KJV): 15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole. 16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Here lies the basis of the Jews’ assessment, they accused Jesus because he called God “My Father”, and this is the same title as in John 10:30, “My Father”. Does Jesus accept their accusation? No, Jesus replies that The Son can do nothing of himself. In the same response Jesus calls himself both of the titles, “The Son of God” v25 and “the Son of man” v27, but does not accept the title or description “God”, or “God the Son”. So in John 5 Jesus rejects their claim and let us consider whether Jesus accepts or rejects their similar claim here in John 10.

Quoting again v33 to set the context:
John 10:33-36 (KJV): 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
The first thing to note is in v34: “Jesus answered them”. Jesus did not agree with their assessment or accusation.

The answer that Jesus gives is based upon the OT usage of the word “God”, “gods”, that is the Hebrew word “Elohim”. Jesus speaks concerning the fact that in the OT the judges were called God or gods. It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.

The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father.

Another strong feature of Jesus’ answer to the Pharisees and Scribes is that in quoting from Psalm 82, Jesus is showing that they were like these unjust Judges, as they had already sought his arrest and were wanting to kill him. God in Heaven would stand up in judgement against these unjust judges and they would perish.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Martin Marprelate]

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

The Jews understood it; John understood it. Why don't you understand?
I have provided you with dozens of texts showing that Jesus is the LORD. It is not down to a few I AM texts (Obvious as those are); it is all over the Bible.

Just out of interest, are you in agreement with the KJV and NKJV (and every other, I think) translation of 2 Peter 1:11?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hello Trevor,
2 Peter 1:11 (NKJV). 'For so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.'

Do you think that's a reasonable translation? If not, how would you improve it?

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver and Martin and others, (Part 1 of 2)

This is one reason why I quoted Tyndale and his translation as “I wilbe”. The KJV was mainly in the hands of Trinitarians, mainly the Church of England with some moderating influence from a few others. The RV and RSV also were products of mainly Trinitarians, but there must have been a few scholars even amongst these, possibly even Trinitarians that suggested the alternative translation “I will be”.
I was quoting from a LXX with an English Translation printed by Samuel Bagster London. It does not have a date or preface and I have had this book for years. I have only recently obtained my electronic copy of the LXX, but it has only a word by word analysis, not a direct translation. I prefer the Hebrew and “I will be”.



Kind regards
Trevor

This is the same tactic you hear from all false religions - "mistranslated". The JW's even rounded up their own set of translators to produce their own bible because the Christian bible did not line up with their founder's antichrist views.

What I would like to know is how is it you think you have eternal life through Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ is not eternal?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Martin and steaver,

I have quoted what I said in fuller detail:

The Jews in John 5 make a similar assessment and accusation, that when Jesus calls God His Father, that he was making himself equal with God:
John 5:17-18 (KJV): 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Here lies the basis of the Jews’ assessment, they accused Jesus because he called God “My Father”, and this is the same title as in John 10:30, “My Father”. Does Jesus accept their accusation? No, Jesus replies that The Son can do nothing of himself. In the same response Jesus calls himself both of the titles, “The Son of God” v25 and “the Son of man” v27, but does not accept the title or description “God”, or “God the Son”. So in John 5 Jesus rejects their claim …

The Jews understood it; John understood it. Why don't you understand?

I do not believe that John or Jesus was stating that Jesus was making himself equal with God, but John is recording the assessment and accusation of the Jews. What Jesus says in response proves that Jesus was not claiming equality, but complete dependence upon His Father.

I have provided you with dozens of texts showing that Jesus is the LORD. It is not down to a few I AM texts (Obvious as those are); it is all over the Bible.

Who is the LORD (Yahweh) in Psalm 8:1 and Psalm 110:1?
Psalm 8:1 (KJV): O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Just out of interest, are you in agreement with the KJV and NKJV (and every other, I think) translation of 2 Peter 1:11?

2 Peter 1:11 (NKJV). 'For so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.'

Do you think that's a reasonable translation? If not, how would you improve it?

I looked at about 20 translations, and all of them say much the same except for equivalents to “everlasting”, such as “eternal” and the YLT has “the age-during reign of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”. Do you have something to say about 2 Peter 1:11. Jesus is my Lord and Saviour Acts 2.

This is the same tactic you hear from all false religions - "mistranslated". The JW's even rounded up their own set of translators to produce their own bible because the Christian bible did not line up with their founder's antichrist views.

Most mornings I read a chapter or two from a KJV / RV Interlinear Bible that I obtained recently from my mother’s estate. The RV sometimes gives a more Modern English word and sometimes some variation in translation. At our meeting I use a KJV and also carry a pocket NASB for reference, mainly for use in our Senior Sunday School Class and Bible Class. What Bible do you use or recommend? If I am trying to understand a verse or chapter I see the need to consult a number of Bible versions to assess the correct meaning. I also have other reference books to determine the meaning and range of some of the Hebrew and Greek words. Englishman's is also helpful and I like the Book New TSK edited by a Baptist Jerome Smith and this book is a thorough update of TSK. As far as the KJV is concerned do you understand many of the English words that today can have a slightly different meaning? I have a book on this subject and they give numerous interesting examples.

What I would like to know is how is it you think you have eternal life through Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ is not eternal?

Jesus was given immortality when he was raised from the dead. I hope to be given immortality, that is eternal life, at the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

Jesus was given immortality when he was raised from the dead. I hope to be given immortality, that is eternal life, at the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

So when you read God is Eternal Life you equate this with God is Immortal Life?

 

[Darrell C]

Running out of time so I will just comment on a few statements you make, and if you would like a more detailed response just let me know.

Greetings again steaver and Martin and others, (Part 1 of 2)

This is one reason why I quoted Tyndale and his translation as “I wilbe”. The KJV was mainly in the hands of Trinitarians, mainly the Church of England with some moderating influence from a few others. The RV and RSV also were products of mainly Trinitarians, but there must have been a few scholars even amongst these, possibly even Trinitarians that suggested the alternative translation “I will be”.
I was quoting from a LXX with an English Translation printed by Samuel Bagster London. It does not have a date or preface and I have had this book for years. I have only recently obtained my electronic copy of the LXX, but it has only a word by word analysis, not a direct translation. I prefer the Hebrew and “I will be”.

Many Trinitarians use John 10:30 in support of their beliefs. John 10:30 was introduced by you in the heaven at death thread, and also by BobRyan in the third Post of this thread:

In an earlier Post in this thread I suggested that I would be willing to consider John 10:30-36 in detail.

I feel that I should be patient with both you and Bob on this subject. I attended a SDA Seminar series on Daniel more than 15 years ago, but on one session when many were away due to a Public Holiday, the subject chosen was the Trinity. The Notes or Pamphlet supplied and nearly all the SDAs present suggested John 10:30 as a prime proof-text for the Trinity, while I stated that I believed that Jesus is the Son of God, but could not give an adequate explanation of my position or response to John 10:30. The following is my explanation developed over a number of years since attending that Seminar.

There is a need to look carefully at what Jesus actually says in v30, and also his explanation and response to the Jews in the verses immediately after. Looking at each part in turn:
John 10:30 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one.
The first thing to notice is that the same language that is used for the unity between the Father and Jesus is also used for the unity between Jesus and the immediate and future disciples:
John 17:17-23 (KJV): 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
This shows that the unity in John 10:30 is not speaking of the Trinity, but that God the Father and Jesus have a unity based upon the sanctifying power of the word that had been effectual in him, and a sharing of purpose and character. The disciples are to share in this same unity. Thus in John 10:30 Jesus is not claiming to be God.

In John 10:30 Christ declares unity with the Father, a unity He does not ascribe to anyone else, but in fact denies it for certain:

John 8:40-45

King James Version (KJV)

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.


What we can take from this is that the Jews claimed God was their father, and this is denied by Christ.

Now when Christ claims God is His Father, we see that the reaction is a charge of blasphemy worthy of death.

Why was it okay for them to claim the Fatherhood of God...but not Christ?

Because the claim was not the same.

You quote...

John 17:17-23 (KJV): 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

...but you forget everything Christ has stated in this discussion which can at the very least be seen to begin just after the Last Supper and continue until the Garden, therefore we balance everything that is stated, rather than secluding a portion of the teaching in order to justify a view.

The above was stated after this...


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


So nothing in John 17 nullifies the fact that the Unity Christ declares with the Father, in which when the Spirit of God comes, He also teaches that He and the Father will come.

The reaction of the Jews to Jesus’ statement is given in v31, but this is followed immediately by Jesus’ answer and consistent with what we saw in John 17, Jesus also draws attention to this unity with His Father by the works that he had done:
John 10:31-32 (KJV): 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
And note Jesus does not claim to work these miracles from his own initiative or power, but “Many good works have I shewed you from my Father”. These miracles were by means of the power given to him from his Father. So again Jesus is not claiming to be God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Again, you deny that Christ declares His Deity, yet we can see that it was okay for the Jews to declare the Fatherhood of God.

In view are two different contexts to that Fatherhood.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Greetings again Martin, (Part 2 of 2)

The Jews did not accept this explanation, but further accused Jesus by saying:
John 10:33 (KJV): The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Like the Trinitarians, for example especially a few Trinitarians on this thread, they assessed that Jesus was stating more, that he was really claiming to be God.

He does. That is clarified as we go through the text. He says He is the Son, which arouses anger specifically because He is making Himself God, and, He continues to call Himself God.

He does not say, "No, guys...I just meant it like you would mean it."

The Jews in John 5 make a similar assessment and accusation, that when Jesus calls God His Father, that he was making himself equal with God:
John 5:15-20 (KJV): 15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole. 16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Here lies the basis of the Jews’ assessment, they accused Jesus because he called God “My Father”, and this is the same title as in John 10:30, “My Father”. Does Jesus accept their accusation? No, Jesus replies that The Son can do nothing of himself.

How does continuing to call Himself the Son...not affirm their charge? lol

You have stopped at v.20, Trevor, and made the argument that Christ has rejected their charge that He has made Himself equal with God.

Let's read on a little further and see if that bears out in the context of the next statements:


John 5:20-23

King James Version (KJV)

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.


Now I would say that Christ saying He can make alive on an equal basis with the Father bears out that the Son is equal to the Father.



22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


I would say that the Father giving judgment into the hands of the Son bears out the Son being equal to the Father.


23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


I would say that Christ stating that men should honor Himself as they honor the Father...removes all doubt.

This passage is a clear declaration of Deity on the part of the Son of God.

Equal power (to give Life), equal judgment, and equal honor demanded.

In the same response Jesus calls himself both of the titles, “The Son of God” v25 and “the Son of man” v27, but does not accept the title or description “God”, or “God the Son”.

To find Christ saying He was God explicitly we go here...

John 14:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


...and here...


Revelation 1:10-15

King James Version (KJV)

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.


There is no question that this is Christ speaking. Even if one denied this they would still be forced to understand this...


16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

...is indisputably Christ (because He died and is alive for evermore), and we see Christ say "I am the First and the Last."

So either Christ is contradicting the Father and in this verse saying He is the First and the Last, or, we can be assured that the same Person is in view and that is Christ.

You did not respond (that I know of) to my previous post about this, so I am hoping you will do so this time.

And just to refresh your memory of Who is unquestionably God speaking and what He calls Himself...


Isaiah 41:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.


Isaiah 44:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Isaiah 48:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

So in John 5 Jesus rejects their claim

Not at all.

He clarifies His equality with the Father.

and let us consider whether Jesus accepts or rejects their similar claim here in John 10.

Quoting again v33 to set the context:
John 10:33-36 (KJV): 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
The first thing to note is in v34: “Jesus answered them”. Jesus did not agree with their assessment or accusation.

He affirms that He has come from the Father.

We see that here also:

John 3:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


I did not emphasize "...even the Son of man which is in heaven" because I am not interested in debating the validity of that statement based on certain manuscripts.

But what I did emphasize is clearly a statement "I came from Heaven." This equates to "...whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world," which is clearly a distinction from the average Joe, er, Jew.

The answer that Jesus gives is based upon the OT usage of the word “God”, “gods”, that is the Hebrew word “Elohim”. Jesus speaks concerning the fact that in the OT the judges were called God or gods. It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

Not sure where you see the KJV translators had "difficulty."

Judges suits the context better than God. You do understand that men could not go before God ceremonially at will, right? We would have to make this apply only to Levites in order to make a translation of "God" fit.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.

Do you really think the Lord was deciding what amount of money would be paid in these instances?

Would not men mediating these affairs make a little more sense?

The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God.

God was commanding Himself not to show respect of persons? It is clear in the text that men are in view.

Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father.

At no time did God pass the power of life-giving, judgment, and equal honor equal to Himself...to men.

Christ is not claiming a similar though superior role, He was saying He had equality to God. IT is a simple question, "Why are you getting angry with me for saying God is My Father when God called men gods in Scripture?"

But the distinction between Christ is that those men were men, and they would die like men. That contrasted with Christ saying...


John 10:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Another strong feature of Jesus’ answer to the Pharisees and Scribes is that in quoting from Psalm 82, Jesus is showing that they were like these unjust Judges, as they had already sought his arrest and were wanting to kill him.

Perhaps, but that does not change the fact that the Jews, who themselves would say they were sons of God, are clearly stated as wanting to murder Him because He made Himself God. And the Scripture cannot be broken.

God in Heaven would stand up in judgement against these unjust judges and they would perish.

Kind regards
Trevor

Sorry, no.

John 5:20-23

King James Version (KJV)

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Scripture makes it absolutely clear that Christ was God manifest in the flesh.


God bless.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is the same tactic you hear from all false religions - "mistranslated". The JW's even rounded up their own set of translators to produce their own bible because the Christian bible did not line up with their founder's antichrist views.

What I would like to know is how is it you think you have eternal life through Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ is not eternal?

It is nice to have any area of agreement. You have presented our view of Christ being God very nicely.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver and Darrell C,

Darrell, I notice that you have added three Posts, and I have taken a copy of these and will decide whether to respond in a day or two when time permits.

Steaver, in the changeover to a new format, a number of our Posts were deleted or not carried over. These were originally Posts #50-54. I am not sure if you read my last Post (#54), so I decided to re-Post this with a few additions at the end. We were discussing 1 Timothy 6:14-16 and you claimed that this passage speaks of Jesus, but I suggested that it speaks of Jesus revealing the One God the Father.

It's so plain my fifth graders can understand it. Who is the King of kings and Lord of lords Trevor? God or Jesus? In the same breath who is the ONLY Pontentate? Who ONLY hath immortality? This isn't a mystery. Paul doesn't speak with confusion.

There is only One God the Father. He is the Supreme Being. He has given His Name as Yahweh and He is also Lord of Heaven and Earth. He has begotten a Son by means of His Holy Spirit coming upon Mary, and He has exalted His Son to be the Ruler to sit upon the Throne of David. In the Age to Come, this Son, the Lord Jesus Christ will be Lord of Lords, King of Kings. He will reveal to all upon the earth the Glory of God, both in His Character as He is full of grace and truth, and in His physical glory as he will be immortal.

A few verses below show this development, from God the Father, to God having a Son whom he has appointed heir of all things. I do not want to repeat what I said in your previous thread on the Trinity, but I wrote of the development of the Yahweh Name in and through Jesus. The equivalent of this theme of the Yahweh Name in the NT is the simple and clear concept of Father and Son. God gave birth to a Son and gave him authority over all things. To understand such a concept as Father and Son, one does not need to learn Hebrew as you complain, as the concept is understandable by a second grader or earlier. But it is incomprehensible (like the Trinity formula itself) to a Trinitarian because when he sees “The Son of God” all he can think of is “God the Son” and a multitude of confusing contradictory ideas. Rather it is necessary to listen to this simple first grade concept and abandon preconceived Trinity concepts.

Psalm 8:1 (KJV): O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
Psalm 8:5-6 (KJV): 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Matthew 11:25-28 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Acts 2:34-36 (KJV): 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Philippians 2:8-11 (KJV): 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[Additional material:]I would be interested in how you would teach your young children the Trinity. I was good at Maths and Physics, but poor at English and History. But a Trinity concept seems to run counter to basic Maths and Physics – One is Three, Three is One. Three Beings but One Being ??
The following was prompted by my wife Joyce, when she read to me Item 4. I agreed with her that this item was simple and clear and a child could learn and understand this. I then also read the other items and decided they were also clear and simple.

The following are some of the items given at Sunday School to our children under 8:
1. Who made all things? God.
2. What is He called? The Father.
3. Why is He called the Father? Because all things are of Him and from Him. He made them all.
4. Is the Father separate from the Spirit? No, they are both one, like a fire and its warmth, or the sun and its light.
5. Who is Christ Jesus? God’s own son.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DHK]

The following are some of the items given at Sunday School to our children under 8:
1. Who made all things? God.
2. What is He called? The Father.
3. Why is He called the Father? Because all things are of Him and from Him. He made them all.
4. Is the Father separate from the Spirit? No, they are both one, like a fire and its warmth, or the sun and its light.
5. Who is Christ Jesus? God’s own son.

1. Who made all things. Christ did.
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--He that sits on the throne is worshiped, and only God is worshiped.
--He that sits on the throne is the Creator, and by Him all things were created.
--He that sits on the throne is Lord, God, and is defined further in Rev.5:1ff, as the "Lamb" referring to Christ.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
--It is Christ who created all things. It is Christ who is referred to as God. It is Christ who is before all things--eternally immortal.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
--Christ, the Word, made all things. Nothing was created that was not created by Him.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
--Christ, the Word, entered this world as God and dwelt among men. He is our creator and deserves our worship.

2. Who is He called? He is called Christ.
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
--Emmanuel is His name, and it means God with us.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
--His names and/or titles are given above in this wonderful verse.
Note that Christ is "The mighty God, The everlasting Father.
In John 10:30, Christ declares "I and my Father are one." The Jews understood this as more than purpose or unity. He was declaring deity. For that reason they took up stones to stone him.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
--They knew what he was referring to; what he was talking about.

3. Why is He called Christ? Because He saves his people from their sins.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Is He separate from the Spirit?
Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
--He was conceived of the Holy Spirit; His deity never left him; and as both God and King will rule over a kingdom without end.

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver and Darrell C,



The following are some of the items given at Sunday School to our children under 8:
1. Who made all things? God.
2. What is He called? The Father.
3. Why is He called the Father? Because all things are of Him and from Him. He made them all.
4. Is the Father separate from the Spirit? No, they are both one, like a fire and its warmth, or the sun and its light.
5. Who is Christ Jesus? God’s own son.

Kind regards
Trevor

This is so painful for me to read. I pray God may give these small children, even at such a young age, eyes to recognize the truth that the God who created all things is without question the very Christ Jesus as Colossians declares. I pray you are born again Trevor, even though you have no comprehension of what that means, and if you are you certainly have a lot of wood, hay and stubble that is going to be burned up at your judgment for works. What I fear most though is that these small children will grow up with a religion void of the Spirit of Christ indwelling their souls which will leave them as goats.

I have a question for the board, isn't Trevor's profile "Baptist"? What kind of Baptist congregation teaches such heresy? I can understand a believer maybe not understanding Jesus Christ, but to have a church teaching this heresy to little children and calling itself "Baptist" is quite troubling.

Edit - Ok I guess it is not Baptist, I thought I read somewhere he said he was, it says he is "nil" whatever that means. Not in Light maybe...

 

[Darrell C]

Greetings again steaver and Darrell C,

Good morning, Trevor.

Darrell, I notice that you have added three Posts, and I have taken a copy of these and will decide whether to respond in a day or two when time permits.

The question I would ask is why would you not respond? If you can take the time to do these many responses, surely you could address at least one of mine, lol. If you feel no valid points are raised and you are above responding, I can understand that. But at least let me know why.

But, it is your choice, my friend. Just keep in mind that we should be able to respond to anyone.

Steaver, in the changeover to a new format, a number of our Posts were deleted or not carried over. These were originally Posts #50-54. I am not sure if you read my last Post (#54), so I decided to re-Post this with a few additions at the end. We were discussing 1 Timothy 6:14-16 and you claimed that this passage speaks of Jesus, but I suggested that it speaks of Jesus revealing the One God the Father.

1 Timothy 6:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


I have not read Steaver's statements in regards to this, but I would point out that this is clearly speaking of Christ...Whom men have seen.

Scripture is clear that when believers die they do go into God's presence.

So what does Paul mean when he says no man has seen Him...nor can see?

While I agree that we have to distinguish between the Son's earthly ministry in the Incarnation and His Eternal Person as Creator (something I hope to be a focus in this response (which will be separated to make response easier), there is a clear indication of Christ's unique Person in relation to men here. And you seem to miss the fact that what Paul is saying would be considered blasphemy to those who were under Law. Paul is a Jew, and for Him to say that Christ is the only Potentate (which again can be seen in relationship to the physical ministry of Christ), the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords...stands in direct contrast to Paul's former beliefs. Then He would have said God was.

And the truth is...He is still saying that, just with a better understanding of God.

There is only One God the Father. He is the Supreme Being. He has given His Name as Yahweh and He is also Lord of Heaven and Earth.

I don't think any Trinitarian would deny that.

He has begotten a Son by means of His Holy Spirit coming upon Mary, and He has exalted His Son to be the Ruler to sit upon the Throne of David.

Agreed. It is critical that we keep in mind that Jesus was not eternal in regards to the Incarnation.

But the Son was.

That body He dwelt in was created at a specific point in time, and because some will not make that distinction they will confuse texts and improperly apply something that isn't there.

However, there is no controversy to Paul's teaching here:


Philippians 2:5-8

King James Version (KJV)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


There is simply no getting around Paul's declaration of the Son's pre-existence prior to the Incarnation.

Christ Jesus made Himself of no reputation, took upon the form of a servant, and was made into the likeness of men.

Not...was created out of thin air.

The Writer of Hebrews makes it clear that this body is the Veil through which men go through in order to come into the presence of God.

We see His pre-existence here:


Hebrews 10:5-9

King James Version (KJV)

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


This is a conversation between the Father and Son in Eternity. And in many passages we see Christ maintain His pre-existence.

Here...


John 17:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


We see that Paul is simply reiterating that which Christ taught.

He veiled His glory in flesh with the specific purpose of opening the way into the Holiest of All.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

In the Age to Come, this Son, the Lord Jesus Christ will be Lord of Lords, King of Kings.

He is already King of Kings and Lord of Lords, my friend. In the Age to come, He will simply reclaim ownership of the earth on a physical level, which has been in the throes of the dominion of darkness since the Fall.

This takes place in the Tribulation:

Revelation 11:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

He will reveal to all upon the earth the Glory of God, both in His Character as He is full of grace and truth, and in His physical glory as he will be immortal.

I agree. Doesn't mean I deny Scripture's clear teaching that Christ is God manifest in the flesh.

And again, we emphasize the physical.

This does not nullify that Christ is God, nor does it deny His Sovereignty.

In view is the physical realm.

Mankind is locked into the physical universe, and cannot traverse to the spiritual except that they separate from their physical frame. Likewise, because the Spiritual Realm is a separate Realm, there is a separation from the physical. Right now Christ reigns from that Spiritual Realm, and we are in expectation of His Return to the physical, when there will be a regeneration in regards to the physical universe. Men will live longer, enmity between man and animals, and animals and animals will cease, but the most important aspect is that God will stand as Sovereign over this physical Realm. He will do that in the Person of Christ.

A few verses below show this development, from God the Father, to God having a Son whom he has appointed heir of all things. I do not want to repeat what I said in your previous thread on the Trinity, but I wrote of the development of the Yahweh Name in and through Jesus. The equivalent of this theme of the Yahweh Name in the NT is the simple and clear concept of Father and Son. God gave birth to a Son and gave him authority over all things.

And what you are doing, my friend...is building your doctrine without regards to the difference between the physical and the spiritual.

Let me ask you this: When God met with Abraham on the Plains of Mamre (Genesis 18)...was the Throne of God vacant at that time?

The only difference between that manifestation of God to man, God manifesting in physical frame in this Realm is that the Body created in the womb of Mary was not cast off after His interaction ended. Rather, it was glorified and it is in that same Body Christ now resides, and rules...from Heaven.

To understand such a concept as Father and Son, one does not need to learn Hebrew

Agreed.

And while being a Hebrew Scholar helps some (and hurts others, lol), the relationship between God and Man in regards to fatherhood is clearly made distinct in regards to the relationship between God the Father and God the Son.

Of no other "son" in Scripture do we see the Son called Creator:

John 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


The Son is the Creator.

And where we have to be specific in our study is clarifying the distinction between God manifesting to man in this Realm, and God in His eternal Realm.

Most errors of Theology can be rectified if people would simply learn the difference between the physical and spiritual natures of any particular text. But because many merge and blend concepts they end up drawing erroneous conclusions.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

as you complain, as the concept is understandable by a second grader or earlier. But it is incomprehensible (like the Trinity formula itself) to a Trinitarian because when he sees “The Son of God” all he can think of is “God the Son”

That is simply not true. And that is the very point in focus.

I do not confuse the Son in regards to the differing ministries He is seen as performing throughout the Ages.

and a multitude of confusing contradictory ideas.

Well, I have tried to discuss issues with you, but you have failed to respond to my address of your views. For example, do we distinguish between the atonement of the Law and Atonement through Christ?

Rather it is necessary to listen to this simple first grade concept and abandon preconceived Trinity concepts.

We are going to address the "simple grade School" concepts you have taught.

And I am going to briefly address some of this, because for some reason the typing has slowed. I type and then watch it slowly appear, lol.

Psalm 8:1 (KJV): O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
Psalm 8:5-6 (KJV): 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Matthew 11:25-28 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Evenis so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Acts 2:34-36 (KJV): 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Philippians 2:8-11 (KJV): 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And if we keep this in context we see in view is clearly keeping the Son in His physical Person Person which we do not then combat against those passages that deal with the Son in His Eternal Person.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

[Additional material:]I would be interested in how you would teach your young children the Trinity.

The exact same way I would teach an adult.

As you say, it is a simple concept. People are in the habit of saying something like "well I believe the Trinity but that doesn't mean I understand it."

That is not what God gave us His Word ofr...to be confused, but rather...to reveal Himself and His will for our lives to us.

It is as simple as the father son relationship among men.

I was good at Maths and Physics, but poor at English and History. But a Trinity concept seems to run counter to basic Maths and Physics – One is Three, Three is One. Three Beings but One Being ??

Let's see you destroy your own argument:

4. Is the Father separate from the Spirit? No, they are both one, like a fire and its warmth, or the sun and its light.

Now you can comprehend God being the Father and the Spirit, but reject the same simplistic teaching in Scripture in regards to God being the Father and the Son.

The math is simple, my friend. The problem is that you are using the wrong numbers in your equation. You are combatting Scripture against Scripture because of your own bias.

Now let's go back to the plains of Mamre: did God physically leave Heaven when He manifested to Abraham? And while He was in Heaven, and having lunch served by Abraham...does that mean He was not also ministering to other people in the World at that time?

Is God only ministering in the hearts of one person right now? Or is He ministering to the world, as well as maintaining His Sovereignty in Heaven?

It's just not that complex of a concept, and we usually mention His Omnipresence at this point.

The following was prompted by my wife Joyce, when she read to me Item 4. I agreed with her that this item was simple and clear and a child could learn and understand this. I then also read the other items and decided they were also clear and simple.

Let's review them together:

The following are some of the items given at Sunday School to our children under 8:

Would you mind telling me exactly which denomination you are of? Just curious.

1. Who made all things? God.

Agreed. But did you also point out to the Children that we see the Son ascribed with Creation in John One?

If not, then you have only given them part of what Scripture teaches.

2. What is He called? The Father.

Not always.

God has many names throughout Scripture, and that is why I have pointed out on several occasions that Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, and beside Him there is no other god.

He is only called "Father at times, and this is largely in relation to the incarnation.

One creed declares that Christ is the "eternally begotten son," which is an error that, as I have tried to bring the focus to, deals only with the physical aspects of the Son Who ministered to men approximately 2000 years ago. Christ was not eternally begotten except to say that His Incarnation was foreordained and known throughout eternity. Some have called me a blasphemer for pointing out that Jesus has a point in History where His Body was created.

But...that does not mean we nullify the many teachings which show that the Son is the Eternal God manifest in that flesh.

3. Why is He called the Father? Because all things are of Him and from Him. He made them all.

This is stated in regards to the Son:

Colossians 1:12-18

King James Version (KJV)

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

The subject does not bounce around (vv.14-18), the Son of God is the subject throughout.

Paul is not speaking of both Father and Son and we can impose which is which according to our doctrine.

We simply allow Scripture to speak, and we see that Christ is the Creator.

4. Is the Father separate from the Spirit? No, they are both one, like a fire and its warmth, or the sun and its light.

This is a poor illustration to teach concerning God, and is a method used to try to teach the Trinity.

THe Father is a Person. The Son is a Person. The Spirit is a Person.

And I have shown you where in John and Revelation the indwelling of the Comforter is equated to the indwelling of all three, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

And they are, as Christ taught...One.

5. Who is Christ Jesus? God’s own son.

Christ Jesus is actually the One God promised to mankind Who would come at the appropriate time to redeem mankind from their sin. This does not change the Old Testament Basic that God is and always has been, and always will be the Savior of mankind.

And that, my friend, is where the primary room for debate opens up, because many will not clarify the distinction of God in His differing ministries towards man.

The same God Who redeemed mankind on a physical level in the Old Testament (i.e., from Egypt, from enemies, et cetera) is the Same God Who redeemd m,en from their sin in this Age.

Hear O World...the Lord God HE is One, and beside Him there is no other.

Kind regards
Trevor

Kindness would be in responding to the address of your views, my friend.

God bless.