The Truth About the Biblical Act of Predestination.

[Alan Gross]

The election follows one's calling. It does not precede it. ". . . For many are called, but few are chosen. . . ." Matthew 22:13.

Judas had been “called,” but would not be among the “chosen”, that shows that him being "called" was not among the Elect; "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Ephesians 1:4.

Judas was a devil from the beginning, no matter how often he was "called" by the Gospel.

We have talked about there being a General Call that is given to anyone, but the Specific personal "call" is always Effectual, as it is made so, by the Holy Spirit in the New Birth and that saved soul is then known to have been one of the few who have been Chosen, from Eternity Past, and are, therefore, among the few in time that "are Chosen".

 

[37818]

Judas had been “called,” but would not be among the “chosen”, that shows that him being "called" was not among the Elect; "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Ephesians 1:4.

Judas was a devil from the beginning, no matter how often he was "called" by the Gospel.

We have talked about there being a General Call that is given to anyone, but the Specific personal "call" is always Effectual, as it is made so, by the Holy Spirit in the New Birth and that saved soul is then known to have been one of the few who have been Chosen, from Eternity Past, and are, therefore, among the few in time that "are Chosen".

Matthew 22:14. 2 Peter 1:10.

 

[AustinC]

Let's look at Matthew 22:14. Note that it's a parable, so what was Jesus teaching us in this parable? Let's see the context.

*Matthew 22 : 1-3,11-14*
And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come.

“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

In the context there is a person who tried to come to the wedding feast invitation on his own terms. He would not receive the garments that the king required, but instead attempted to join the wedding and kingdom on his own terms. The King casts the man out because that man is not clothed in the righteousness of the King.
The call was for everyone, but the King chooses who will be in the feast and who wears the robes of righteousness. That choice is not for the invited guests to make. Those who attempt to enter in their own terms are cast out.

 

[AustinC]

Let's look at 2 Peter 1:10.
Note to whom Peter is writing and the promised that Peter is sharing with his readers. I will highlight the promises in red.

I will then highlight the supplements to our faith, which makes our faith stronger, in purple.

*2 Peter 1:1-11*
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Note that God gives promises. God prescribes supplements for growth.

The use of these supplements is a confirmation of what has already happened...that being your election and calling.

 

[JD731]

In my last post I showed where many Old Testament scriptures and people and names promises and covenants and types appeared in the same context with predestination and adoption, and glory, etc, all acts of God for the sons of God, those who have received the Spirit of God and Christ into their mortal bodies to quicken them. Included in that list was the act of God he calls foreknowledge. IOW, God knew these people whom he addresses in these texts before the present age and the new covenant where they will receive the new birth through Jesus Christ when they believe.

Interestingly, foreknowledge is not mentioned as Paul addresses gentiles in this informal letter to the Ephesians. The reason for that is stated clearly in Eph 2:11-12. It is because God did not know them in any kind of relationship before he opened the door of faith to gentiles in Acts 10 in the year 40 AD Below is where Paul says that clearly;

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye (gentiles) were 1) without Christ, being 2) aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and 3) strangers from the covenants of promise, 4) having no hope, and 5) without God in the world:

That is 5 things about gentiles in time past, and interestingly, this is the only thing said in the 6 chapters of Ephesians that predates the cross of Jesus Christ in time. And that which was said was then, but this is now, at the present time.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye (gentiles) who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (does anyone understand this type of terminology?)

So there is no foreknowledge of the gentiles in the Old Testament times. There are no covenant promises to them. They were without Christ, hope, and God in the world. I did not say that, the apostle Paul did.
So, in the epistle to the Ephesians there is not a single reference to anything that was written in the OT. Paul quoted no verses. He mentioned no names from the past. Almost every verb in the whole letter is either in the present tense or the future tense. Mostly the present tense. This letter is an explanation of what is happening now for the gentiles and it is obviously by grace if these 5 things Paul mentioned as being lacking for gentiles is true, and it dead sure is.

The difference between Romans and Ephesians. Those who he was addressing in Romans had all 5 of those things in the OT. Those in Ephesians did not. Therefore God was dealing with the first group through the principle of promise. Without promises and receiving it anyway is by grace, and you may throw in mercy. It could not have happened except for the blood of Christ on the cross that made peace between Jew and gentiles and gentiles and God the Father. Yet both groups will share the same inheritance, adoption, and blessed hope in Christ because they are made one.

So there is foreknowledge in Romans but not in Ephesians and like wise there is "dispensation" in Ephesians but not in Romans. This is a significant truth and God put dispensation in this context because it explains his grace and to whom it came, and when.

It is late now but I must complete some thoughts on this and I will continue at my next opportunity. Meanwhile, think on these things.

 

[AustinC]

In my last post I showed where many Old Testament scriptures and people and names promises and covenants and types appeared in the same context with predestination and adoption, and glory, etc, all acts of God for the sons of God, those who have received the Spirit of God and Christ into their mortal bodies to quicken them. Included in that list was the act of God he calls foreknowledge. IOW, God knew these people whom he addresses in these texts before the present age and the new covenant where they will receive the new birth through Jesus Christ when they believe.

Interestingly, foreknowledge is not mentioned as Paul addresses gentiles in this informal letter to the Ephesians. The reason for that is stated clearly in Eph 2:11-12. It is because God did not know them in any kind of relationship before he opened the door of faith to gentiles in Acts 10 in the year 40 AD Below is where Paul says that clearly;

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye (gentiles) were 1) without Christ, being 2) aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and 3) strangers from the covenants of promise, 4) having no hope, and 5) without God in the world:

That is 5 things about gentiles in time past, and interestingly, this is the only thing said in the 6 chapters of Ephesians that predates the cross of Jesus Christ in time. And that which was said was then, but this is now, at the present time.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye (gentiles) who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (does anyone understand this type of terminology?)

So there is no foreknowledge of the gentiles in the Old Testament times. There are no covenant promises to them. They were without Christ, hope, and God in the world. I did not say that, the apostle Paul did.
So, in the epistle to the Ephesians there is not a single reference to anything that was written in the OT. Paul quoted no verses. He mentioned no names from the past. Almost every verb in the whole letter is either in the present tense or the future tense. Mostly the present tense. This letter is an explanation of what is happening now for the gentiles and it is obviously by grace if these 5 things Paul mentioned as being lacking for gentiles is true, and it dead sure is.

The difference between Romans and Ephesians. Those who he was addressing in Romans had all 5 of those things in the OT. Those in Ephesians did not. Therefore God was dealing with the first group through the principle of promise. Without promises and receiving it anyway is by grace, and you may throw in mercy. It could not have happened except for the blood of Christ on the cross that made peace between Jew and gentiles and gentiles and God the Father. Yet both groups will share the same inheritance, adoption, and blessed hope in Christ because they are made one.

So there is foreknowledge in Romans but not in Ephesians and like wise there is "dispensation" in Ephesians but not in Romans. This is a significant truth and God put dispensation in this context because it explains his grace and to whom it came, and when.

It is late now but I must complete some thoughts on this and I will continue at my next opportunity. Meanwhile, think on these things.

"There is no foreknowledge of the gentiles in the OT times."

Well, I guess God didn't foreknow Cyrus as the king that would send Judah back home...over 100 years before Cyrus even lived.

You write so many words to say nothing, JD.

 

[robycop3]

Nothing false at all. Every Calvinist believes that. It's just that, '.... The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.'

Matthew 11:25-27.
Luke 10:21-24.
John 6:37-40.
John 10:25-30.
John 17:9.
Romans 11:7
Etcetera, etcetera.

When Jesus said what became John 3:16, He was talking to the then-unsaved Nicodemus, trying to "convert" him. And there was nothing Spiritual about His words then, nor His other "whoever"s.

 

[robycop3]

What I note is that you are attempting to create a theology from short phrases that are less than a sentence, while not even caring about the context. Share the passage and we can look at it together. What you have here is nothing of value.

Actually, they ARE. You just don't wanna admit that your calvinism is false. But you wanted verses, so here ya go:

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

Matt. 10:32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 12:46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.

Acts 2:21[color=red ]And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’[/color]

Acts 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

These few should make my point. Now, can you show me any "whoever if elect"s?

 

[robycop3]

Judas had been “called,” but would not be among the “chosen”, that shows that him being "called" was not among the Elect; "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Ephesians 1:4.

Judas was a devil from the beginning, no matter how often he was "called" by the Gospel.

We have talked about there being a General Call that is given to anyone, but the Specific personal "call" is always Effectual, as it is made so, by the Holy Spirit in the New Birth and that saved soul is then known to have been one of the few who have been Chosen, from Eternity Past, and are, therefore, among the few in time that "are Chosen".

Judas had many opportunuties to be saved. Jesus even told him in so many words that He knew of the plan to betray Him.But he chose to betray Jesus instead. Even though he regretted it, he still didn't turn to Jesus, killing himself instead.

Someone once asked me what woulda happened had Judas repented & been saved, My answer; almost the same thing. Someone in the crowd that sought Jesus to bust Him woulda recognized Him & become His betrayer.

But the point is, salvation is open to all living people.

 

[Dave G]

When Jesus said what became John 3:16, He was talking to the then-unsaved Nicodemus, trying to "convert" him.

No, He was not. Nothing He said to Nicodemus ever contradicted itself, and nothing He said ever contradicts the fact that no one comes to Him except it were given to them of His Father to do so ( John 6:37-65 ).

When the Lord does something, He does it...
He never "tries" and and fails.

And there was nothing Spiritual about His words then, nor His other "whoever"s.

Later on in that very same account that was given for John to write, we see this:

" It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. " ( John 6:63 ).

The words He spoke ( and continues to speak through the Spirit and the written word ) are spirit, and they are life.
To all that believe on Him, those words are special and they have power....

The power of God.

Now, do we find an answer to why people do not hear ( hearken to, recognize as God's words ) His words?
Of course...
John 8:43-47.

Please read it again, my friend.

 

[AustinC]

Judas had many opportunuties to be saved. Jesus even told him in so many words that He knew of the plan to betray Him.But he chose to betray Jesus instead. Even though he regretted it, he still didn't turn to Jesus, killing himself instead.

Someone once asked me what woulda happened had Judas repented & been saved, My answer; almost the same thing. Someone in the crowd that sought Jesus to bust Him woulda recognized Him & become His betrayer.

But the point is, salvation is open to all living people.

This is pure speculation on your part.
Here is what Jesus said about Judas:

*John 6:58-71*
This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum. When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

*John 17:12*
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[AustinC]

Actually, they ARE. You just don't wanna admit that your calvinism is false. But you wanted verses, so here ya go:

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

Matt. 10:32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 12:46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.

Acts 2:21And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

Acts 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

These few should make my point. Now, can you show me any "whoever if elect"s?

Who causes this, robycop?

Does God cause a person to be alive and confess?

Or...

Does the unregenerate sinner cause himself to become alive by confessing?

Ephesians 2:4-5 tells you the answer.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

 

[percho]

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye (gentiles) were 1) without Christ, being 2) aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and 3) strangers from the covenants of promise, 4) having no hope, and 5) without God in the world:

Would like your thoughts concerning the above relative to:

Jer 3:8 KJV And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Is the following relative to that bill of divorce?

Hosea 1:6-9 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

Did verse 12 of Eph 2 apply to the house of Israel, for God said of those exact same people in verse 10 of Hosea 1?

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Is a remnant being grafted back in for purpose, that in the end will result in all Israel being saved? See Rom 11 Acts 15:14-17

Ezek 36:19, 22-24 Ezek 37

 

[JD731]

Would like your thoughts concerning the above relative to:

Jer 3:8 KJV And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Is the following relative to that bill of divorce?

Hosea 1:6-9 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

Did verse 12 of Eph 2 apply to the house of Israel, for God said of those exact same people in verse 10 of Hosea 1?

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Is a remnant being grafted back in for purpose, that in the end will result in all Israel being saved? See Rom 11 Acts 15:14-17

Ezek 36:19, 22-24 Ezek 37

Peter, James John, and Jude all wrote to the circumcision to whom they primarily ministered. Their letters did not go to Judah. Their letters went to strangers and to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. Strangers are citizens of one place who are in someone else place. Paul wrote to the gentiles to whom his primary calling was and to whom we are distinctly told had no previous relationship to God. Hosea was contemporary with Isaiah, a prophet to Judah in and around 700 BC. Logic says Paul would have been wrong in Eph 2:12 if indeed these people had previous promises. So, no, these are pure, unadulterated gentiles that Paul is addressing.

Ga 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11 But I certify you, brethren, that thegospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For ye have heard ofmy conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews’ religion abovemany my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalemto see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother. 20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; 22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: 23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. 24 And they glorified God in me.

Ga 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. 3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. 6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: 7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) 9 And when
James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do. 11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the
Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightl according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This is a personal testimony where Paul explains that he was the apostle to the gentiles. The only Jewish epistle delivered to Judah was the epistle addressed to the Hebrews, to the seat of their religion.

 

[AustinC]

@JD,you keep trying to segregate the church and then interpret the Bible by segregating Jew from Gentile. That's not how God segregates. God separates the Israel of God (the Church) from the unredeemed.
Every letter in the Bible is written to the people of God (the Israel of God, the Church). Every part of scripture points us to see the Anointed One, the Promised One, the Messiah, the Savior of our souls.

When you segregate by Jew and Gentile in regard to who the letter is addressed, you do a great disservice to God.

In Galatians there are unredeemed legalists who are attempting to pressure believers to live according to laws that are contrary to the New Covenant and grace. Paul tells the believers to flee from that legalism. Paul knows first hand how legalism binds the hands and drags a person back into slavery to Sin. This is why he wrote to the Church at Galatia.

 

[percho]

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. Rev 7:4-8

Rev 14:1-4 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


I wonder if these were foreknown and or predestined?

Amos 3:1,2 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Well known for sure, but foreknown?

Predestined brethren of the Son?

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

 

[JD731]

@JD,you keep trying to segregate the church and then interpret the Bible by segregating Jew from Gentile. That's not how God segregates. God separates the Israel of God (the Church) from the unredeemed.
Every letter in the Bible is written to the people of God (the Israel of God, the Church). Every part of scripture points us to see the Anointed One, the Promised One, the Messiah, the Savior of our souls.

When you segregate by Jew and Gentile in regard to who the letter is addressed, you do a great disservice to God.

In Galatians there are unredeemed legalists who are attempting to pressure believers to live according to laws that are contrary to the New Covenant and grace. Paul tells the believers to flee from that legalism. Paul knows first hand how legalism binds the hands and drags a person back into slavery to Sin. This is why he wrote to the Church at Galatia.

Obviously you cannot process my words any better than you can process the words of scriptures. When you say I segregate the Jew and gentile, you have it exactly opposite from what is true. The ability to do this is not learned, it must be revealed. Calvinism, which is not my subject here, is a system that does this with almost every biblical doctrine of the faith. This revelation is not from God. Calvinism is a blinding agent within the confines of Christendom.

The doctrine of the church of Jesus Christ incorporates both Jew and gentile into one body as equally sons of God and as the temple of the Holy Ghost. The typology that is used for this union of the two is a man and his wife, defined in the scriptures as two being one. The indwelling Spirit of God stamps the body of Christ with God's trinitarian signature. Jew, gentile, Spirit. See it here in real time;

Eph 2:14 For he (the Resurrected Jesus Christ) is our peace, who hath made both (Jewish believers in Christ and gentile believers in Christ, that is in his body) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (Jew & gentile)

A dispensation, exempting the gentiles and the Jews from a former rule that had kept them separated, the enmity of the law, by design of God)

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Try to understand the word reconcile.
16 And that he might reconcile both (Jew & gentile) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Do you understand that he is not saying they will be no longer two, but they will be reconciled to one another and to God in the body.

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (the gentiles), and to them that were nigh (the Jews).

Look, they are still referred to as "both" in the body.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye (gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (Jewish believers who were first in the body), and of the household of God;

If you try to convince me that apostles and prophets upon which this temple is built aare not Jews, I will say you have screw loose. Surely you will not argue that Jesus Christ, the preeminent one in this building is not a Jew at this present time.

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye (Jews and gentiles) also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Look together up in the dictionary. There are two entities in this body and both are led by the same Spirit because they have one purpose.

Here are these same 12 Jewish apostles and a prophesy concerning Israel when Jesus Christ rules and reigns over a redeemed nation of Israel in the future, according to him. I am fortunate enough to understand these words. I hope you are.

Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Ponder that. The church, though a separate entity from the nations, will be involved in the politics of the kingdom rule.

Consider these facts and may the Lord give you some light to see his wonderful works among the children of men.

 

[AustinC]

Obviously you cannot process my words any better than you can process the words of scriptures. When you say I segregate the Jew and gentile, you have it exactly opposite from what is true. The ability to do this is not learned, it must be revealed. Calvinism, which is not my subject here, is a system that does this with almost every biblical doctrine of the faith. This revelation is not from God. Calvinism is a blinding agent within the confines of Christendom.

The doctrine of the church of Jesus Christ incorporates both Jew and gentile into one body as equally sons of God and as the temple of the Holy Ghost. The typology that is used for this union of the two is a man and his wife, defined in the scriptures as two being one. The indwelling Spirit of God stamps the body of Christ with God's trinitarian signature. Jew, gentile, Spirit. See it here in real time;

Eph 2:14 For he (the Resurrected Jesus Christ) is our peace, who hath made both (Jewish believers in Christ and gentile believers in Christ, that is in his body) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (Jew & gentile)

A dispensation, exempting the gentiles and the Jews from a former rule that had kept them separated, the enmity of the law, by design of God)

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Try to understand the word reconcile.
16 And that he might reconcile both (Jew & gentile) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Do you understand that he is not saying they will be no longer two, but they will be reconciled to one another and to God in the body.

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (the gentiles), and to them that were nigh (the Jews).

Look, they are still referred to as "both" in the body.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye (gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (Jewish believers who were first in the body), and of the household of God;

If you try to convince me that apostles and prophets upon which this temple is built aare not Jews, I will say you have screw loose. Surely you will not argue that Jesus Christ, the preeminent one in this building is not a Jew at this present time.

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye (Jews and gentiles) also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Look together up in the dictionary. There are two entities in this body and both are led by the same Spirit because they have one purpose.

Here are these same 12 Jewish apostles and a prophesy concerning Israel when Jesus Christ rules and reigns over a redeemed nation of Israel in the future, according to him. I am fortunate enough to understand these words. I hope you are.

Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Ponder that. The church, though a separate entity from the nations, will be involved in the politics of the kingdom rule.

Consider these facts and may the Lord give you some light to see his wonderful works among the children of men.

*Galatians 3:28-29*
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

JD, whoever mentored you really missed what God is telling us. He couldn't see the covenants because he created a hyper dispensationalists theory of the Bible.

 

[robycop3]

No, He was not. Nothing He said to Nicodemus ever contradicted itself, and nothing He said ever contradicts the fact that no one comes to Him except it were given to them of His Father to do so ( John 6:37-65 ).

When the Lord does something, He does it...
He never "tries" and and fails.

Later on in that very same account that was given for John to write, we see this:

" It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. " ( John 6:63 ).

The words He spoke ( and continues to speak through the Spirit and the written word ) are spirit, and they are life.
To all that believe on Him, those words are special and they have power....

The power of God.

Now, do we find an answer to why people do not hear ( hearken to, recognize as God's words ) His words?
Of course...
John 8:43-47.

Please read it again, my friend.

You're trying to ADD to Jesus' words. He said "whoever believes", not "whoever if elect".

 

[robycop3]

This is pure speculation on your part.
Here is what Jesus said about Judas:

*John 6:58-71*
This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum. When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

*John 17:12*
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

But Jesus gave Judas the opportunity to repent & truly believe in Him, same as He does everyone alive now.