The truth of Romans 9

[Ben Elohim]

You have quite the imagination there johnp.

Let us illustrate what happened. Please try to keep up johnp.

I SAID (your quote of what I said): "In this way, we understand that God hardened Pharaoh's heart - He called Pharaoh to obey him and Pharaoh would not. And it is the same problem here with Israel at the moment Paul is writing."


AND THEN YOU SAID: Answer the lie. And this is a lie. It is the other way around. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. So that Pharaoh refuses God, God hardens his heas his heart. You have it wrong. "I will harden his heart so that..." So that. So there!

AND THEN I ASKED: Where is the idea in Romans that God hardened Pharaoh's heart "SO THAT"

AND YOU PROVIDED NO ANSWER: Instead you appealed to Exodus 4:21.

AND THEN I DEMONSTRATED: That the term "SO THAT" is not even in the Hebrew text at Exodus 4:21.... which you ignored for convenience's sake

AND THEN I DEMONSTRATED TWO THINGS WITH SCRIPTURE:

1. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
2. Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart

If it makes you happy to add to Scripture and put "SO THAT" after point #1 above, please go ahead and do so. It is completely irrelevant to the point at hand and this is what you do no seem to be catching on to yet.

AND THEN YOU IGNORED THE EVIDENCE that Pharaoh hardened his own heart and continued on with this "LIE" rant of yours which you cannot and have not supported.

AND I HAVE ASKED SEVERAL QUESTIONS which you are avoiding for very obvious reasons:

1. Do you still admit that God needed to harden the heart of a "'Totally Depraved' reprobate" dead in sin and in bondage to the will of the flesh so that this man would not obey Him?

2. Do you confirm your own previous admission that an unregenerate man can use his common sense to obey the command of God?

3. Does Scripture say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart or not johnp? Why do you avoid the question?

4. Are you an advocate of double predestination?

Come out of the darkness and into the light and confess your deeds. Let your Yes be yes and your no be no.

 

[johnp.]

Ben.

AND THEN I DEMONSTRATED TWO THINGS WITH SCRIPTURE:

Well I hope you forgive me for saying so Ben but I don't think you are capable of demonstrating anything from scripture because you are not a Christian.
I see you are getting wound up. Good. Shouting will not be a useful thing to you I am sure. It will cause you to err more I am sure.

The two things you say you demonstrated from scripture were;
1. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
2. Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart

Which wasn't the point was it? Which does not need demonstrating does it because that is what it says. The point was Exodus 4: 21 says that God, my God, hardened Pharaoh's heart, the one mentioned in Romans nine unless you say it was someone else, to stop him making the right decision. That is the point let's keep to the point.
You said it was Pharaoh that hardened his heart and God then did. But that is the wrong way round and you know that otherwise you would have buried me instead of all this and that causes it to be a lie compounded.

Address the point.

johnp.

 

[Ben Elohim]

Um no, I said no such thing johnp and I can now see why you are so out to lunch on this one. You are reckoning I was promoting an idea which I am not and you have run amuck with this assumption.

Read my original post. It explains how the hardening took place and how it was both God's doing and Pharaoh's doing at the same time. I will explain it here AGAIN. We are to understand that Pharaoh's heart was hardened, not after God did some hardening, as if to say, God did some hardening and then Pharaoh did some hardening himself at a later time (as you seem to think I was saying). It happened simultaneously my friend. When God calls and we disobey the call it is both God hardening our heart with his call and us hardening our heart by refusing to obey. If God calls me to do something today and I refuse, it hardens my heart. If he does not call me to do anything today, I have nothing to refuse and my heart will not be hardened because there is nothing for me to disobey.

Now I have clearly explained how this works. You have yet to answer my questions.

1. Do you still admit that God needed to harden the heart of a "'Totally Depraved' reprobate" dead in sin and in bondage to the will of the flesh so that this man would not obey Him?

2. Do you confirm your own previous admission that an unregenerate man can use his common sense to obey the command of God?

3. Does Scripture say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart or not johnp? Why do you avoid the question?

4. Are you an advocate of double predestination?

 

[johnp.]

Ben.

It happened simultaneously my friend.

When God calls and we disobey the call it is both God hardening our heart with his call and us hardening our heart by refusting.

Exodus 4:21 says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart to prevent him choosing right. Answer Exodus 4:21. And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (KJV)
God did not say, "Pharaoh and Me can harden his heart together." Did He?

Answer the point Ben you keep missing. You do believe the scriptures don't you?

If he does not call me to do anything today, I have nothing to refuse and my heart will not be hardened.

He gives you days off! Wow you got good terms didn't you?

johnp.

 

[Ben Elohim]

johnp: Exodus 4:21 says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart to prevent him choosing right. Answer Exodus 4:21. And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (KJV)
God did not say, "Pharaoh and Me can harden his heart together." Did He?

BE: Yes he did johnp.

Before you go any further, and get yourself deeper into hot water, check out the critical passages in question okay?

But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go; as the Lord had spoken through Moses. Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants. (Exodus 9:34-10:1).

Who did it here johnp? God? Or Pharaoh?

 

[johnp.]

Ben.

You say;
But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go; as the Lord had spoken through Moses. Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants. (Exodus 9:34-10:1)

Strange that you should try confuse matters by running the three verses together without their numbers. Under the circumstances would you in future chapter and verse eveything please?

EX 9:34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.

EX 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them

Read it properly.

Answer the point please. Exodus 4:21 says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart to prevent him choosing right. Answer Exodus 4:21. And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (KJV)

johnp.

 

[ScottEmerson]

There are no verses in the original language - those were added later.

And it's amazing to see just how badly johnp doesn't want to answer those questions. I'd love to see the answers as well.

 

[johnp.]

ScottEmerson.

There are no verses in the original language - those were added later.

Thanks. What? Is that it? Would you have the words rearranged in some other way then? What is the point you are making? Is it that the verse does not say it was God causing the hardening or what?

And it's amazing to see just how badly johnp doesn't want to answer those questions. I'd love to see the answers as well.

If you would like to get answers from me why don't you ask me? First though do you agree with Ben? If you do answer my point. If you don't then you agree with me or what?
You have a crack at the scripture instead of having a crack at me why don't you?

Answer the point please. Exodus 4:21 says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart to prevent him choosing right. Answer Exodus 4:21. And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (KJV)

johnp.

 

[ScottEmerson]

It means exactly what it says. God hardened Pharoah's heart. How this happened, I do not know. Perhaps God is like sun, and Pharoah is like clay, the sun hardens the clay. We also must understand that Pharoah had the capacity to harden his own heart, just as God has the capacity to harden Pharoah's heart.

But as Ben points out, why would God have to harden the heart of a man who was already totally depraved, and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? That's the question I'd like for you to answer.

 

[Ben Elohim]

johnp, are you absurdly claiming that we should ignore 9:34-35 when we come to the VERY NEXT VERSE which is 10:1? Do you not know that in the original Hebrew there were no chapter and verse notations, no chapter and verse breaks and no paragraph breaks? Surely you know this johnp. And surely you would not expect us to believe that verse 9:34-35 where Pharaoah hardened his own heart is a completely different event than God hardening Pharaoh's heart at 10:1? Is this what you are absurdly expecting us to believe?

And you still seem to want to believe that your "so that" term exists at Exodus 4:21 when it does not.

And you still have not answered these questions. I wonder why.

1. Do you still admit that God needed to hardened the heart of a "'Totally Depraved' reprobate" dead in sin and in bondage to the will of the flesh so that this man would not obey Him?

2. Do you confirm your own previous admission that an unregenerate man can use his common sense to obey the command of God?

3. Does Scripture say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart or not johnp? Why do you avoid the question?

4. Are you an advocate of double predestination?

 

[johnp.]

Ben.

...absurdly...Is this what you are absurdly expecting us to believe?

I have said nothing for you to believe I asked you a question.

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. NIV

God did what... that made Pharaoh do what...?

What point will there be in leaving this verse and continuing? I can do this throughout Romans. I can because the Lord is with His word.
It demolishes all pretentions does it not? You are denying the scripture for your own creedal stand, a thing you accuse others of, and when you are pulled up for it you start dribbling. Why don't you get to grips instead of gripes and answer the question?

johnp.

 

[johnp.]

ScottEmerson.

But as Ben points out, why would God have to harden the heart of a man who was already totally depraved, and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? That's the question I'd like for you to answer.

You know what total depravity means why are you using such tripe as argument have you no shame but that you want the issue clouded?
Do you know what Calvinists believe about total depravity?
Yes, then this is nothing but dross and you should correct the impression you have left on those who don't know.
No, then you should not set yourself up as someone who knows something about something when you don't. Study is called for.

It means exactly what it says.

What does it say ScottEmerson?

God hardened Pharoah's heart.

Oh! But the question is what for? Why did He do that? Answer the point.

Perhaps God is like sun...

Really?

...and Pharoah is like clay...

Maybe.

...the sun hardens the clay.

What, by choice or by accident?

We also must understand that Pharoah had the capacity to harden his own heart, just as God has the capacity to harden Pharoah's heart.

Yes we must understand that but we must not forget the question either must we? Why don't you answer it?

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. NIV

Now you can keep company with Ben if that is your will but your will is being messed with ScottEmerson. To continue to deny the passage in question shows God in action and that action is one of hardening you. You should fear such a movement and if you don't it only convinces me that you are being hung out to dry so you burn brighter for His glory.
Will you submit or not? Accept the verse as it is. It is God that hardened Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh would not let the people go. It's simple is it not?

john.

 

[Ben Elohim]

Are you actually trying to get someone to agree that our great God actually happened to know the implications of hardening someone's heart johnp?

You know what is really interesting here? The point of this thread was to illustrate that Romans 9 says absolutly NOTHING with respect to God electing and predestining people to become born again believers. You have not made one single point to the contrary. Not one. And all you can do is run off with a "SO THAT" hobby horse? Even IF the passage said that God hardened Pharaoh's heart "SO THAT" it would get you nowhere. Do you not realize this? It is completely beside the point.

 

[ScottEmerson]

It is because I have read Calvin and understand his definition of total depravity that I echo Ben's question, john.

I have no problem admitting that God caused Pharoah's heart to be hardened so that His glory may be shown. That said, will you answer the question, perhaps adding your understanding of "total depravity?"

 

[Ben Elohim]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
It is because I have read Calvin and understand his definition of total depravity that I echo Ben's question, john.

I have no problem admitting that God caused Pharoah's heart to be hardened so that His glory may be shown. That said, will you answer the question, perhaps adding your understanding of "total depravity?"

I think johnp is confused about what you are saying Scott. I believe he thinks you are saying that "Total Depravity" means that such a man is as evil as one could possibly be, rather than that the term refers to the extent of his will's bondage and inability to do the will of God.

 

[johnp.]

Ben.

Are you actually trying to get someone to agree that our great God actually happened to know the implications of hardening someone's heart johnp?

I asked the question that you refuse to answer that's all. Make out of that what you want.

You know what is really interesting here?

Yes I do. The fact that you will not answer the question.

The point of this thread was to illustrate that Romans 9 says absolutly NOTHING with respect to God electing and predestining people to become born again believers.

That's for after you answer the question but as you see you should be careful about what you believe.

You have not made one single point to the contrary.

No I have asked you a question that is stuck in your throat.

Not one.

And it is stuck well!

And all you can do is run off with a "SO THAT" hobby horse?

Nay! Not a hobby horse but the word of God.

Even IF the passage said that God hardened Pharaoh's heart "SO THAT" it would get you nowhere. Do you not realize this?

'Even if' is not submission to the word of God is it?

It is completely beside the point.

It is not.
Thanks for putting ScottEmerson right for me!

I believe he thinks you are saying that "Total Depravity" means that such a man is as evil as one could possibly be, rather than that the term refers to the extent of his will's bondage and inability to do the will of God.

But you are right.
ScottEmerson said;
"But as Ben points out, why would God have to harden the heart of a man who was already totally depraved, and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? That's the question I'd like for you to answer."
Now why should I not think that he thinks man is as bad as he can be and seeing as you did not correct him I assumed you thought the same? But don't answer this until you answer my other point. You know, the one you can't!

johnp.

 

[Ben Elohim]

How is it not submission to the Word of God to not submit to something it never says in the first place johnp? The Hebrew does NOT say "so that." Sorry.

The point is that even if it did, which it doesn't, that you don't seem to comprehend that it would still not do a thing for you.

Your questions are still before you unanswered.

1. Do you still admit that God needed to hardened the heart of a "'Totally Depraved' reprobate" dead in sin and in bondage to the will of the flesh so that this man would not obey Him?

2. Do you confirm your own previous admission that an unregenerate man can use his common sense to obey the command of God?

3. Does Scripture say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart or not johnp? Why do you avoid the question?

4. Are you an advocate of double predestination?

 

[johnp.]

ScottEmerson.

I have no problem admitting that God caused Pharoah's heart to be hardened so that His glory may be shown.

No and neither do I?

That said, will you answer the question, perhaps adding your understanding of "total depravity?"

Total inability. What question this one?
But as Ben points out, why would God have to harden the heart of a man who was already totally depraved, and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? That's the question I'd like for you to answer.

It is because I have read Calvin and understand his definition of total depravity that I echo Ben's question, john.

What that Calvin said man is as bad as he can be? Did he? Where pray tell. Have I got this right?
...and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? Are you saying that man is not as bad as he can be or he is as bad as he can be?
Do you amend, ...and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? and now hold to, I believe he thinks you are saying that "Total Depravity" means that such a man is as evil as one could possibly be, rather than that the term refers to the extent of his will's bondage and inability to do the will of God. As Ben claims you do?
I need to know what you think before I reply because I am confused.

I think johnp is confused about what you are saying Scott.

...and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? Plus, It is because I have read Calvin and understand...
If you understand Calvin then you probably understand me but I can't say for sure. It's been a long time since reading Calvin.

johnp.

 

[ScottEmerson]

You say that total depravity is merely "total inability." Total inability to do what? That's quite an incomplete definition.

Here is John Calvin's definition:

"...Our nature is not only utterly devoid of goodness, but so prolific in all kinds of evil, that it can never be idle. Those who term it concupiscence use a word not very inappropriate, provided it were added, (this, however, many will by no means concede), that everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else but concupiscence" (from 2.1.8 of Institutes)

 

[Ben Elohim]

johnp:

Your questions are still before you unanswered.

1. Do you still admit that God needed to hardened the heart of a "'Totally Depraved' reprobate" dead in sin and in bondage to the will of the flesh so that this man would not obey Him?

2. Do you confirm your own previous admission that an unregenerate man can use his common sense to obey the command of God?

3. Does Scripture say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart or not johnp? Why do you avoid the question?

4. Are you an advocate of double predestination?