The truth of Romans 9

Ben.

Well I hope you forgive me for saying so Ben but I don't think you are capable of demonstrating anything from scripture because you are not a Christian.
I see you are getting wound up. Good. Shouting will not be a useful thing to you I am sure. It will cause you to err more I am sure.

The two things you say you demonstrated from scripture were;
1. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
2. Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart

Which wasn't the point was it? Which does not need demonstrating does it because that is what it says. The point was Exodus 4: 21 says that God, my God, hardened Pharaoh's heart, the one mentioned in Romans nine unless you say it was someone else, to stop him making the right decision. That is the point let's keep to the point.
You said it was Pharaoh that hardened his heart and God then did. But that is the wrong way round and you know that otherwise you would have buried me instead of all this and that causes it to be a lie compounded.

Address the point.

johnp.

 

Ben.

Exodus 4:21 says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart to prevent him choosing right. Answer Exodus 4:21. And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (KJV)
God did not say, "Pharaoh and Me can harden his heart together." Did He?

Answer the point Ben you keep missing. You do believe the scriptures don't you?

He gives you days off! Wow you got good terms didn't you?

johnp.

 

Ben.

You say;
But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go; as the Lord had spoken through Moses. Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants. (Exodus 9:34-10:1)

Strange that you should try confuse matters by running the three verses together without their numbers. Under the circumstances would you in future chapter and verse eveything please?

EX 9:34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.

EX 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them

Read it properly.

Answer the point please. Exodus 4:21 says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart to prevent him choosing right. Answer Exodus 4:21. And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (KJV)

johnp.

 

There are no verses in the original language - those were added later.

And it's amazing to see just how badly johnp doesn't want to answer those questions. I'd love to see the answers as well.

 

ScottEmerson.

Thanks. What? Is that it? Would you have the words rearranged in some other way then? What is the point you are making? Is it that the verse does not say it was God causing the hardening or what?

If you would like to get answers from me why don't you ask me? First though do you agree with Ben? If you do answer my point. If you don't then you agree with me or what?
You have a crack at the scripture instead of having a crack at me why don't you?

Answer the point please. Exodus 4:21 says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart to prevent him choosing right. Answer Exodus 4:21. And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (KJV)

johnp.

 

It means exactly what it says. God hardened Pharoah's heart. How this happened, I do not know. Perhaps God is like sun, and Pharoah is like clay, the sun hardens the clay. We also must understand that Pharoah had the capacity to harden his own heart, just as God has the capacity to harden Pharoah's heart.

But as Ben points out, why would God have to harden the heart of a man who was already totally depraved, and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? That's the question I'd like for you to answer.

 

Ben.

I have said nothing for you to believe I asked you a question.

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. NIV

God did what... that made Pharaoh do what...?

What point will there be in leaving this verse and continuing? I can do this throughout Romans. I can because the Lord is with His word.
It demolishes all pretentions does it not? You are denying the scripture for your own creedal stand, a thing you accuse others of, and when you are pulled up for it you start dribbling. Why don't you get to grips instead of gripes and answer the question?

johnp.

 

ScottEmerson.

You know what total depravity means why are you using such tripe as argument have you no shame but that you want the issue clouded?
Do you know what Calvinists believe about total depravity?
Yes, then this is nothing but dross and you should correct the impression you have left on those who don't know.
No, then you should not set yourself up as someone who knows something about something when you don't. Study is called for.

What does it say ScottEmerson?

Oh! But the question is what for? Why did He do that? Answer the point.

Really?

Maybe.

What, by choice or by accident?

Yes we must understand that but we must not forget the question either must we? Why don't you answer it?

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. NIV

Now you can keep company with Ben if that is your will but your will is being messed with ScottEmerson. To continue to deny the passage in question shows God in action and that action is one of hardening you. You should fear such a movement and if you don't it only convinces me that you are being hung out to dry so you burn brighter for His glory.
Will you submit or not? Accept the verse as it is. It is God that hardened Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh would not let the people go. It's simple is it not?

john.

 

It is because I have read Calvin and understand his definition of total depravity that I echo Ben's question, john.

I have no problem admitting that God caused Pharoah's heart to be hardened so that His glory may be shown. That said, will you answer the question, perhaps adding your understanding of "total depravity?"

 

Ben.

I asked the question that you refuse to answer that's all. Make out of that what you want.

Yes I do. The fact that you will not answer the question.

That's for after you answer the question but as you see you should be careful about what you believe.

No I have asked you a question that is stuck in your throat.

And it is stuck well!

Nay! Not a hobby horse but the word of God.

'Even if' is not submission to the word of God is it?

It is not.
Thanks for putting ScottEmerson right for me!

But you are right.
ScottEmerson said;
"But as Ben points out, why would God have to harden the heart of a man who was already totally depraved, and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? That's the question I'd like for you to answer."
Now why should I not think that he thinks man is as bad as he can be and seeing as you did not correct him I assumed you thought the same? But don't answer this until you answer my other point. You know, the one you can't!

johnp.

 

ScottEmerson.

No and neither do I?

Total inability. What question this one?
But as Ben points out, why would God have to harden the heart of a man who was already totally depraved, and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? That's the question I'd like for you to answer.

What that Calvin said man is as bad as he can be? Did he? Where pray tell. Have I got this right?
...and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? Are you saying that man is not as bad as he can be or he is as bad as he can be?
Do you amend, ...and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? and now hold to, I believe he thinks you are saying that "Total Depravity" means that such a man is as evil as one could possibly be, rather than that the term refers to the extent of his will's bondage and inability to do the will of God. As Ben claims you do?
I need to know what you think before I reply because I am confused.

...and thus, as bad as he possibly could be? Plus, It is because I have read Calvin and understand...
If you understand Calvin then you probably understand me but I can't say for sure. It's been a long time since reading Calvin.

johnp.

 

You say that total depravity is merely "total inability." Total inability to do what? That's quite an incomplete definition.

Here is John Calvin's definition:

"...Our nature is not only utterly devoid of goodness, but so prolific in all kinds of evil, that it can never be idle. Those who term it concupiscence use a word not very inappropriate, provided it were added, (this, however, many will by no means concede), that everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else but concupiscence" (from 2.1.8 of Institutes)