The truth of Romans 9

Satisfying one's desires only spawns greater desires!

I disagree with your second paragraph completely!

 

So you don't choose what you desire?

 

You do if you know what to desire!

 

How bout if you don't know? Are you telling me that if you don't know about something (or in this cas ANYTHING) you can't make a decision?

I want you to tell me the BASE, the ROOT of the decision making process. From which does everthing come from to make a decision? These are amazingly important questions Wes , please let me know what you think from which everything derives for a person to make a decision... not what is involved in the process but the basis of the process.

 

They are not important to you rc, you are DDiv candidate. If you did not get this in you undergrad studies, I'd demand my refund of the money spent on undergrad courses if I were you. You were defrauded!

 

Wes... stop running and answer the question!! Can't you at least once think and complete a thought to its end?

What gives birth and shapes your thought process?

 

KNOWLEDGE! Just like you!

 

So you sit and process every small bit of information on actions you do? You decide every breath you take? What shoe you put on first? How many strokes on each tooth do you make?

What about thoughts that just "come to mind"? Good or bad, did you "take in" the information and process it to determine whether or not you what to have it "jump" into your thoughts? ... NO.

Information only HELPS you choose what you desire MOST, but it does not preclude and shape it. Two people can have the same choice and the same information and choose completely different things. It's because of the desires of the people are different.

So knowledge does not preclude desire.

Eve took of the tree even though "not knowing good from evil" she did know that God said "You will die when you eat it." She was without sin, she knew it not yet she desired to sin.
I'll finish later...

 

rc;
Wow! rc Your just filling up the place with bull and my boots are only 12" high. Why don't you show some respect for those you need to learn from.
Mike

 

Respect for whom?

Stay in the conversation also. Knowledge gives you an informed choice but doesn't decide the choice. Right?

 

Rc, If I did not have knowledge that boats are fun, I would not have the desire to have one. If I did not have the knowledge that boats are dangerous too, I would not have the desire to go to marine captains school to learn of the rules regarding safe boat operation.

If I did not have knowledge from God's word that God has a plan for me that requires my participation, and that there is a retirement plan that is out of this world. I would have no desire to be obedient to God, nor to have FAITH in his Promises.

 

rc;

Ever here of do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

You don't believe man has a choice. You believe man is forced to choose what his desires are. Your wrong and this has been proven to you several times yet you are still blind to it. Must be that natural man with in.
May Christ Shine On Us All;
Mike

 

ILL,

Hasn't been proven at all. And I do believe man chooses. Your understanding of Calvinism is minimal at best. And no, man is never "forced" to choose anything, that's the point. He will always do what he desires.

"If I did not have knowledge from God's word that God has a plan for me that requires my participation, and that there is a retirement plan that is out of this world. I would have no desire to be obedient to God, nor to have FAITH in his Promises. "

But there are plenty of people that have this "knowlede" of this great plan and don't desire it, though it is still the same exact "knowledge" you have. And they desire NOT have this retirement plan but choose eternal pain instead !! With the same knowledge ! Sorry, desire produces knowledge chosen.


Adam knew by eating the fruit, he would die. THat's pretty dangerous! It was against his creators command. Yet... with this knowledge, all of it STACKED in favor of NOT eating it, he did.

 

What did Adam desire that made him choose to eat the fruit? Was this "new desire", that he did not previously have until he received "additional knowledge" in the form of a lie, enough to persuade him to make a wrong choice? You bet! He chose on the basis of a deception, not on the basis of truth!

The truth: Eat of the fruit and you die.
The Lie: Eat of the fruit and you become Gods.

Adam did not know WHAT a God was, NOR WHAT DEATH IS. Adam had never witnessed death or dying, therefore he had no fear of it.

He knew that there is a being greater than himself because he walked and talked with that being, but he did not know WHAT a God is...do you?

The lie persuaded him that he could become as the one he walked and talked with.

So he deliberately disobeyed God, and ate of the fruit thinking the result would be that he would become as God.

That is one reason why NO LIAR will ever enter heaven! There will be no deception in Heaven.

 

Wes.
Correct.
Adam took what he knew and made the "choice" of what he desired. Information sets the scene up for a choice. The choice is made by what you desire!

 

NOt knowing what a God is though... you can not say that. I would say that if I walked with God, He would let the ground rules be made and let me know who He is... don't you think? It's extra bibllical at best. Also he didn't know death? I'm sure if God told him he would die, God let him know what that meant.

 

Knowing WHO God is and knowing WHAT God is are distinctly different elements of knowledge wouldn't you say?

 

Yes, and I'm sure God covered the bases with Adam on both. Either way Adam chose with the knowledge he had and didn't have according to his desire. That is ultimately what free will is. To chose what you desire the most? Or is something CONTROLING you and limiting you so you can not choose what you desire. If so, you do not have "free will" to choose what you desire.

 

Hi rc;

rc Adam wasn't born in sin he was created in righteousness. He didn't spiritually die until he sinned. The choice was presented to him by God Wes showed you the truth and you in your arrogance headed for the darknes of your false answer. You need to get rid of those history books and start reading the Bible The greatest History bok there ever was.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

This wasn't even in question. Of course Adam wasn't dead in sin, he hasn't sinned yet ! That's my point ! Information or lack of information doesn't matter. You use what you have to make an INFORMED choice. BUT you will choose what you DESIRE from that information. That's all I'm getting at. Do you agree or not?