OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The Church is not one but many. And the Church is chat=rged as being witness of Jesus Christ.
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The two witnesses
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Jacob was always in trouble and God had to rescue him. But when Jacob, unbelieving Israel, rejected and crucified their Messiah He cast them aside.
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I find no scripture which says "and God set Israel aside and He will not fulfill his prophecies to them."
I do see that God cannot lie, Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
God promised in Isaiah chapter 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Christ will sit upon the throne of David, God said it and God is truth, He cannot lie. This prophecy and promise was given to Israel as a nation and if God has set them aside as you say then that makes God a liar.
And that would make 1st John 5:10 apply to those who make God a Liar, 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Now remember Jesus told His disiciples He would return and if one doesn't believe He will return in like manner then they don't believe Him to be the true Savior, they make him a liar, Scripture says so. He was to return and set His foot upon mount Zion,
Zechariah 14: 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain
God had the prophet write that some day the Lord the Messiah of Israel will come and dwell in Jerusalem, and it will be called a city of truth, this has not been fulfilled and God is not a liar, He said it would occur it will occur. His feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, again that is physically standing.
Not one of these prophecies has been fulfilled and it must occur because God said it would. God said the savior would reign on David's throne which is Israels throne and He would reign in peace and The Zeal of the Lord will perform it. God has not set Israel aside for ever, in fact if God had set Israel aside their could be no born again Jews and the Apostles would have been set aside, and gentiles raised up in thier place. As well as at Pentecost 3000 Jews would have never come to Christ at the churches beginning.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Matthew 21:37-45
37. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41. They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
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This says nothing about God setting Israel aside. It says the Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, that is the servants who reject Christ. That is where you interpret the Kingdom of God as the Millennial Kingdom. But the Kingdom of God is not the Millennial Kingdom here. What was taken from them was the their command of spreading the Gospel to the world for the coming age. God's promise of the Millennial Kingdom has stayed intact, why because God made an unconditional promise of the Kingdom coming to Israel. Otherwise we must set aside the Old Testament and disallow it for any scripture. Because it all becomes a lie and makes God a liar.
We see in John 3:5-7 Jesus tells us how one obtains the Kingdom of God, that is Salvation we see , 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The verses you use show how the nation Israel as a whole rejected Christ, their custodianship of spreading the Gospel taken from them, here in John 3 Jesus says Except a man be born of water, that is physical birth and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Those servants you say are Israel are actually everyone who rejects Christ. But nowhere does scripture expressly say, "God has removed the Kingdom from Israel and set her aside." Just like the word Rapture some say is not in the Bible. The Bible does say there will be a snatching away of the Chruch, and all indications from scripture on the snatching away shows it to be prior to the tribulation. So that the last wekk of Daniel that 7year period will be fulfilled. Old Testament Prophecy and the book of Revelation show God is not through with Israel, no matter how some try to make scripture fit their view.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Where does Scripture teach a millennial kingdom on earth where Israel reigns?
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Where does the Bible say there will be a"snatching away" of the Church?
The last week of Daniel was fulfilled ~2000 years ago!
The book of Revelation in NO WAY shows that God is not through with Israel.
You are trying to force Scripture to fit the pre-trib-dispensational view of Darby!
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PreachTony
Active Member
There are instances in the Bible of God proclaiming something on a group of people (like the destruction of Nineveh) only to turn from that proclamation once the people repented. That doesn't make God a liar. Remember, let God be true, and every man a liar.
The idea of the kingdom is spiritual. Jesus preached that the kingdom of heaven was at hand. He told Pilate in John 18:26 "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
Where does the Bible say the "church" will be snatched away? This pre-trib view creates a beautiful problem with Daniel's 70 weeks. Imagine this scenario: You are waiting for me to pick you up from the store. I call you on the phone and say "I'll be there in an hour." Six hours later I show up. You say that I'm 5 hours late. I say "No, only the first 45 minutes and the last fifteen minutes count toward the time I told you. The middle five hours don't apply." That's what the pre-trib view does to Daniel's 70 weeks. No God is not through with Israel. So long as the world goes on and men are preaching the gospel God is not through with anything. He may completely withdraw from some, but opportunity at large is still present until Christ returns in the clouds and we are all called up to meet Him there and go into judgement.
Isaiah 11:1. And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Here of course we The Messiah will call for a remnant of Israel verse 11 says His people. Will be called from all over the earth. As Jeremiah said He will rule in Jerusalem upon David throne. Isaiah says here the root of Jesse will stand as an ensign for the people, the Gentiles shall seek Him in His Kingdom in Jerusalem.
Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Millennial means of course of or relating to a millennium, and millennium is a period of 1000. So for the sake of no argument instead of calling it the millennial reign of Christ we can call it what Revelation says, the 1000 year reign of Christ. They lived, which is physical life, with Him 1000 years. Notice here too satan is bound so he cannot deceive the nations, another reference to the earth. All indicate a 1000 (millennium) reign of Christ and by the Old Testament Prophets, Isaiah and Jeremiah we see it was to be a reign in Jerusalem by the Messiah, the root of Jesse, upon David's throne. Scripture is real clear on this.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The apostles interpreted this to mean they would reign with Him on earth ans be rulers of Israel. Again Israel as a nation on eARTH.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
1. Scripture tells us that when Jesus Christ returns He will return in the Glory of the Godhead. Scripture also tells us that mortal man cannot live in the presence of that Glory.
2. Jesus Christ, the "rod out of the stem of Jesse" was born 2000 years ago!
3. Israel as a whole rejected this " root of Jesse" but the Gentiles were drawn to Him.
4. You are applying a literal interpretation to apocalyptic language.
Scripture is also real clear that Jesus Christ bound Satan 2000 years ago.
Matthew 12:23-31
23. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24. But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26. And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27. And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30. He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Also John saw souls in the passage from Revelation 20.. It does not say he saw physical life.
Furthermore, Scripture also tells us that when Jesus Christ returns there will be no more death. [1 Corinthians 15}.
Mortal man cannot look upon the Glory of God and live as I have already noted!
So you believe that in His glory on the day of His resurrection the Disciples couldn't be with Him nor see Him? He didn't physically in His resurrection body come into the upper room, so we need to by your teaching to discard that portion of scripture, because as you say no man can look on His glory. Therefore with what you teach His resurrected Human Body in you was just figuratively raised from the dead is that what you are saying? That would mean that you believe His human body is still in a grave somewhere. That refutes the doctrine taught by the apostles. Because it is in His resurrected Body that He will rule on this earth, as will the Tribulation Saints, the Saints of the current age and the Disciples, who became Apostles. Because to believe the Kingdom as Figurative and to believe Satan was imprisoned 2000 years is to say per scripture that He is now in the Lake of fire and we are now in New Jerusalem on the renovated earth. Because that is what Revelation says happens when satan was loosed for a little season. Peter tells us the earth will be renovated by fire, Revelation tells us at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ, their will be a New Heaven and A New earth the old will pass away, you are saying that ocurred 1000 years ago. That we are now in eternity with Christ. Sorry I can't see that, we are still on the earth old. Christ has not yet fully redeemed the whole creation. The terms of the earth's redemption by Jesus the Kinsman redeemer has not been unsealed as we see in the early chapters of Revelation. The 7 seals have yet to be broken, therms of redemption of the earth God's creation, lost with the fall of Adam and under the curse. Has yet to be redeemed by Christ. That is what the tribulation is all about, it is Christ and the Father bringing judgment upon the earth in order to redeem God's creation, lost at the fall of man. Then at the end of the 7 year period Christ will return and destroy the unholy trinity of satan, the Beast and False Prophet. Casting the two living human portions of the unholy trinity into the Lake of fire and it says they are cast in alive. Satan will be bound and the earth will have 1000 years of peace, with the animals no longer eating meat, the child leads them and man is living in peace with Christ reigning. That is all seen in the scriptures I have been posting.
Romans 11:25-28 indisputably teaches that "all Israel" which "shall" be saved is NOW PRESENTLY IN THIS AGE the same Israel that is the enemy of the Gospel rather than believers in the gospel (v. 28). Your beating your head against a wall in attempting to change the mind of these a-millers. Waste of time!
PreachTony
Active Member
It's comforting that you think so highly of us, Bib. Good day to you, too. :wavey:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 the Greek word harpazo is used. Translated Caught up in the KJV. It means to seize, carry off by force, to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly, finally, "to snatch out or away" . so 1st Thessalonians 4:17 says the church those believers who are alive and remain will be snatched away, Harpazo, caught up, harpazo that is what the term Rapture is used for when it is speaking of the church being caught up.
Paul also said that we will all be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an at the last trump. I Thessalonians 4 we see the trumpet sound the Last Trump and the Believers, that is those who are a part of the Church will be snatched away, "Harpazo" the church will be removed. In Revelation 4 the trumpet sounds and John is told to come up hither to see the things which must be hereafter, after what after the church is snatched away. From this point forward when the scene changes in Chapter 6 to the Earth and God's judgment the church is not mentioned. Not until chapter 19, as the Bride has been in Heaven preparing herself for the wedding, do we see the wedding feast ready to occur, because she is now prepared. That all the wood, hay and straw are finally consumed and she has made ready her garment. Then Christ will return with the Bride to defeat the unholy trinity and their armies and usher in the 1000 year reign of Christ.
The beast and the false prophet of Revelation are exactly what Daniel prophesied concerning. There are too many parallels seen in it all.
In the ninth chapter we are told that a heavenly messenger brought word to the prophet that God had appointed seventy weeks to His people and their holy city. Seventy times seven years would be 490 years.
Comes in between these two momentous events. The Lord spoke of this period as the “end of the age” in Matthew 24. He divided it into two parts
1. “the beginning of sorrows”
2. “the great tribulation.”
Of course too the ultimate proof that God is not through with Israel is Revelation seven, God seals 144,000 Jews, from the 12 tribes of Israel. Who become witnesses during the Tribulation, these cannot be harmed and these do not die physically until they reign in the 1000 year Kingdom with Christ. That again must occur for the book of Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and is transcribed by John, therefore it is the PROPHECY of JESUS Himself!
No matter how much people want to deny the Snatching away of the church and the Tribulation followed by a literal reign of Christ it just can't hold water. The bucket has too many holes that just cannot be aligned with scripture without a lot of twist and turns.
You sound exactly like the scoffers the Bible warns us about.
For someone who thinks the rapture and tribulation are fictitious, you spend an awful lot of time and energy on these threads trying to refute them. Its like an atheist constantly trolling on threads dealing with God.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
There is no Scripture that says Jesus Christ was in the Glory of the Godhead after His resurrection! He was not! That is the truth!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Why is it that you Darbyites have to try to lie about what people believe because you do not understand what they say or what Scripture states/.
Jesus Christ is already reigning. Why can't you believe that?
You are blowing smoke now!
2 Peter 3:7-13
7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Read the above Scripture and show where this present earth will be renovated. Also Verse 10 tells us the Day of the Lord" will come unexpectedly, not after He reigns for 1000 years.
You obviously do not understand what I am saying.
Your problem is you have been brainwashed by the pre-trib-dispensationalism of John Nelson Darby!
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
He is beating his head against the wall because he is wrong:BangHead: and so are you if you believe Darby's pre-trib-dispensational nonsense.:BangHead:
That doctrine is a corruption of Scripture!
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Carry off by force. Are you saying that the Saints don't want to be resurrected or changed in a moment, in the twinkling of the eye. Jesus Christ has to take them. That is an interesting take on the resurrection/rapture.
So the seventh and last Trumpet sounds at the "snatching away by force" of those reluctant believers?
And blood shall be up to the horses bridles?
Where does Daniel talk about the beast and the false prophet?
So where does Scripture tell us that weeks mean years?
Matthew 24 tells us primarily of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. I believe there is also mention of the return of jesus Christ at the time of the general Resurrection and Judgment. {See Below.}
Please provide me with the names of the 12 tribes mentioned in the passage you reference. Also please provide the names of the tribes missing!
It is the bucket of Darbyism that is full of holes and that the Saints are resurrected by "force" is just one of many!
John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
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In His resurrection body He will reign and men will be with Him in the 1000 years He reigns upon the earth. Thanks for making my point. You said they can't live with him seeing Him in His glory, they won't see him in His glory they will see Him as the Disciples and others saw Him, in His Resurection body He will rule and reign upon this earth.
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