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The Unique distinctive of this board - Christian Evolutionism debates

Elena

New Member
Originally posted by Helen:
[QB] Elena, if you choose to use your brain to figure out where the Bible is wrong "according to science", that is up to you.
The bible is not wrong about science, it simply does not speak to science. I simply refuse to practice bibliolatry.

For the Christian, however, God's Word stands rock solid as the foundation of everything in life, including science.
I am a Christian and I respectfully disagree

If God has said something, it's true.
We agree. Our disagreement is based on your insistence on using the bible for something other than its intended purpose.

Period. If man has said something, it's noise -- which occasionally has a bit of truth in it.
YEC is an excellent example of that point. We agree again!

So we will 'spout Bible.' God is our first love and our authority. He made us; He knows how to communicate to us; He has commanded us to love Him -- that includes respect and belief.
Spouting the good word is good apologetics, it only becomes a problem when you spew the bible as science.

Man's knowledge changes constantly. Man's opinions about what it is he has found out changes constantly.
In science, we call this progress and good science. Agreed.

God, on the other hand, as the Creator, has known it all since forever.
Correct.

And He has given us the parameters of where to find the truth in the Bible -- whether it be in science or history or anything else.
As you noted, man's interpretations can be wrong. However, we have the bible telling us who created and science to tell us about what God did and finally we have the bible telling us how to get to heaven. The main problem is that YEC have forced the bible to be something other than what it is. IMO, they lose in 3 ways. (1) They are forced to compromise Christianity by idolizing the bible (2) Conversion of non-believers is impossible when peddling scientific fancy as biblical fact and (3) they are unable to see the real beauty of creation.

We all know that God is powerful enough to do anything He wants.
Agreed.

We also know that we can trust Him to have communicated clearly to us what He did do
Exactly, he gave us the brains and the scientific knowhow to get a glimpse into his creative mechanism. The bible was written to help us get to heaven and not to tell us how the heavens go (to quote someone more eloquent than myself).


The Bible is not at all irrelevant to exploration of the universe!
Scientifically, it is irrelevant. With regard to telling us who did it, well that's an easy answer we both agree on.

The Bible has a pretty good batting average for the science it presents. About a thousand, from what I can see.
You mean from your interpretation of what it presents. I have no doubt you truly believe what you say, but the evidence is against you on that claim.

EF
 

The Galatian

Active Member
(Barbarian observes that Genesis rules out an "ex nihilo" origin of living things)

Yes that is the text that says "in the beginning God set natural means in place so that given just a very few billion years life would emerge full and complete".
Nope. It's in the text where God says that the earth and the waters brought forth life. Life was not created from nothing, but rather it was created by God, using natural means from pre-existing things.

And the Ex Nihilo part was where the Bible said "God Spoke - and gasses began to cool from then on - whatever happened, happened".
Nope. God gives us no details on that, except to say that it began with "let there be light".

And even then, there were things other than the physical universe created before.

"NOTHING exists that was not made by Him for apart from Him NOTHING was made"
That's true. You just don't approve of the way He did it.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Regarding "the WAY" He did it - the Text is clear - shall we read it?


Originally posted by BobRyan:
God is the CAUSE in each case. God SPEAKS and it is done - He commands and in EACH case - it stands fast.

And in EACH case - it happens in ONE "evening and Morning". ONE rotation of the planet. ONE sequence of Dark and then Light.

Gen 1

9 Then God said, "" LET the waters below the heavens BE Gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear''; and it was so.
10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, ""Let the earth sprout vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them''; and it was so.
12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

14 Then God said, ""LET THERE BE lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;
15 and LET them BE be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth''; and it was so.
16 God MADE the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also.
17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.
19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20 Then God said, ""Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.''
21 God CREATED the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them, saying, ""Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.''
23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 Then God said, ""Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind''; and it was so.
25 God MADE the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, ""Let Us Make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.''
27 God CREATED man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.



But in case there is even the slightest doubt we read it AGAIN with unmistakable language about the CAUSE - and WHO is doing the MAKING

Gen 2
7 Then the LORD God FORMED MAN man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

8 The LORD God PLANTED a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
9 Out of the ground the LORD God CAUSED to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


19 Out of the ground the LORD God FORMED EVERY beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.


God confirms this in His OWN summary - spoken in HIS OWN Words -

Exodus 20
11 "" For in six days the LORD Made the heavens and the earth, the sea and ALL that is IN them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.


But as our OEC "hopefulls" observe "Why this is pure Naturalism promoted in scripture. It is exactly how all naturalists today express that process".

Blind faith - it is good to see that it still exists.

Bob
 

The Galatian

Active Member
Because a literal reading of Genesis produces a number of logical contradictions, ... Augustine and others have commented on it. Augustine himself repeatedly tried to justify a literal Genesis and finally concluded that it could not be done.

From the Administrator: all references to 'most Christians' will be forbidden in this forum from now on. No one is in a position to know and it only engenders arguments. Thank you.

[ July 09, 2003, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Administrator ]
 

Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
There are no contradictions, logical or otherwise, in Genesis, when one pays attention to the Hebrew words.

In addition, to say that there are is to accuse the Israelites of thousands of years of utter stupidity. From the people who have produced so many brilliant scientists, not to mention our Savior Himself, that is a bit more than the average intelligent person should be able to swallow. It is something I reject entirely, and on that basis alone, even if I hadn't taken the time to look at what was being said in the Hebrew, know that Genesis is doing just fine!
 

NeilUnreal

New Member
In addition, to say that there are is to accuse the Israelites of thousands of years of utter stupidity.
Either that or to accuse them of ABOVE average intelligence AND wisdom. Many Rabbis have been comfortable with Midrashic and non-literal interpretations for millenia.

-Neil
 

Elena

New Member
In addition, to say that there are is to accuse the Israelites of thousands of years of utter stupidity. From the people who have produced so many brilliant scientists, not to mention our Savior Himself, that is a bit more than the average intelligent person should be able to swallow. It is something I reject entirely, and on that basis alone, even if I hadn't taken the time to look at what was being said in the Hebrew, know that Genesis is doing just fine! [/QB]
That entire post was a lengthy argument from personal incredulity. Copying errors, transmission errors and reception errors can all creep into a document that was largely carried via oral tradition prior to the writing of the initial texts. Furthermore, we don't have the initial texts making whatever we do have at least one layer away from the originals.

EF
 

Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
And of course, even if God could get it right in the first place, there is no way He is powerful enough to have preserved the meaning through time.

And the Hebrew scribes were, as we know, incredibly careless...

And the other authors of the Bible paid no attention to Genesis at all...

Give me a break!
 

Paul of Eugene

New Member
Originally posted by Helen:
And of course, even if God could get it right in the first place, there is no way He is powerful enough to have preserved the meaning through time.

And the Hebrew scribes were, as we know, incredibly careless...

And the other authors of the Bible paid no attention to Genesis at all...

Give me a break!
Or perhaps many of them simply did the same thing you do, which is to use their intelligence and facility with words to find rationalizations to make the discrepancies dissapear in ad hoc fashion.
 

Administrator2

New Member
All references to "most Christians" and arguments regarding who is and is not Christian have been deleted and will be deleted in the future.
 

Elena

New Member
Originally posted by Administrator:
All references to "most Christians" and arguments regarding who is and is not Christian have been deleted and will be deleted in the future.
EF: As well they should! Bravo!
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Augustine himself repeatedly tried to justify a literal Genesis and finally concluded that it could not be done.
Francis Crick "tried" to stick with the mythologies of evolutionism regarding the origins of life - but finally concluded that it could not be done.

And rumor has it - Crick new "a little more science" than Augustine.

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Getting back to the subject of thie thread.

The unique distinctive basis of this board - dictates that all posting (both evolutionist and creationist) be willing and enthusiastic about showing full harmonious integration of their belief systems in the origins of life on this planet - with the Bible as the Word of God.

Sometimes both groups claim that they are in full agreement with Gods word.

Now lets watch the posts and see which group actually references God's Word as it speaks to the origins of life on the planet.

It is "instructive" to the objective reader.

Bob
 

Meatros

New Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Francis Crick "tried" to stick with the mythologies of evolutionism regarding the origins of life
Which would be abiogenesis. Please distinguish between the two, they are two separate theories and invalidating one doesn't invalidate the other.
 

Paul of Eugene

New Member
Actually, BobRyan, evolution is perfectly consistent with proper scriptural interpretation, and that can be proved logically. Here is the proof:

a) Evolution is true (as per innumberable scientific discoveries)

b) The bible is always true when properly interpreted (axiom)

therefore

The Bible is consistent with evolution when properly interpreted.

Unfortunately this simple proof does not carry with it a detailed explanation of just how to properly interpret the Bible. We leave that as an exercise for the reader.
 

john6:63

New Member
The atheists I wittiness to on other message boards and in my personal life all say that there is too much scientific evidence that disproves the Bible. And may I add these atheists aren’t stupid. They know the Bible like the back of their hand.

So apparently the atheists and the theists are interpreting the same scientific data differently.
 

john6:63

New Member
In addition I feel some will massage the scientific data to fit the Bible or some will massage the Bible to fit the scientific data, so they will feel better consciously about their relationship with God the Father and His Son.

The Word of God, through all 66 books of the Bible, I hold as being authoritative.
 
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