The Unlimited Atonement.

[agedman]

When names are added to the book the Holy Scripture is silent. [Why names are removed or never remove is answered.]

In the NT, no or not written, not when. And not blotted/removed.

The ones who will not perish per Revelation 20:15.

Then what do you make of these verses?

Revelation 17

The beast that you saw—it was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be.

​

Revelation 13

7Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8And all whodwell on the earth will worship the beast— all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain. 9He who has an ear, let him hear:…


​

 

[37818]

I think you're misunderstand where I'm coming from...

Probably.

Jesus was Lord, before and when he (as Jesus) being born that man and as that man the son of David. And by reason of Romans :9 for Romans 14:11.
[Jesus' Lordship has to do with His human nature. Being the Christ has to do with His deity or both. John 20:28, Acts 2:36, Ephesians 5:5. See my post "Jesus is Lord." ]

 

[37818]

Then what do you make of these verses?

Revelation 17

The beast that you saw—it was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be.

​

Revelation 13

7Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8And all whodwell on the earth will worship ẞ beast— all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain. 9He who has an ear, let him hear:…


​

απο καταβολης κοσμου used 7x referring to something in time like Luke 11:50 or Hebrews 9:26.

In time their names not being written in the book. I am of the view the names were removed.

 

[Dave G]

When names are added to the book the Holy Scripture is silent.

" And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." ( Revelation 13:8 ).

In the above, I see that those who worship the beast do not have their names written in the Book of Life of the Lamb ( Jesus Christ ) slain from the foundation of the world ( meaning that His purpose to go to the cross was decided then ).
Therefore, it is impossible for everyone to have had their names written in the Book, since here we see that everyone who does not, will worship the beast.

" The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." ( Revelation 17:8 ).

In the above here, I see that all those who dwell on the earth, and whose names were not written in the Book if Life....when? From ( originating during ) the foundation of the world, shall regard with wonder, when they behold the beast.

In other words, everyone whose names were not written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world, will worship the beast.

"From":

1. • indicating the point in space at which a journey, motion, or action starts.
     "she began to walk away from him"
     • indicating the distance between a particular place and another place used as a point of reference.
       "the ambush occurred 50 yards from a checkpoint"
   • 2.​
     indicating the point in time at which a particular process, event, or activity starts.
     "the show will run from 10 to 2"
   • 3.​
     indicating the source or provenance of someone or something.
     "I'm from Hartford"
     • indicating the date at which something was created.
       "a document dating from the thirteenth century"
   • 4.​
     indicating the starting point of a specified range on a scale.
     "men who ranged in age from seventeen to eighty-four"
     • indicating one extreme in a range of conceptual variations.
       "anything from geography to literature"
   • 5.​
     indicating the point at which an observer is placed.
     "you can see the island from here"
   • 6.​
     indicating the raw material out of which something is manufactured.
     "a varnish made from copal"
   • 7.​
     indicating separation or removal.
     "the party was ousted from power after sixteen years"
   • 8.​
     indicating prevention.
     "the story of how he was saved from death"
   • 9.​
     indicating a cause.
     "a child suffering from asthma"
   • 10.​
     indicating a source of knowledge or the basis for one's judgment.
     "information obtained from papers, books, and presentations"
   • 11.​
     indicating a distinction.
     "the courts view him in a different light from that of a manual worker"

 

[JonC]

I am not using the term in it's narrow usage. I am using the term in a broader way, as to Christ having paid for our sins.
How 1 John 2:2, 1 Corinthians 15:3 along with Isaiah 53:6 and Romans 5:8 would apply.

Ok....I am full of questions (sorry).

1 John 2:2 - I understand that Christ is the propitiation for our sins (I understand "propitiation" to mean an appeasement, or a sacrifice through which people avoid wrath).

1 Corinthians 15:3 - I understand that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scripture.

Isaiah 53:6 - I understand that our iniquities were laid upon Him.

Romans 5:8 - I also understand that Christ died for us.

When you say that Christ "paid for our sins" what do you mean?

 

[1689Dave]

Limited atonement means salvation by grace. Universal atonement means salvation by works. Here’s why.

Limited atonement justifies sinners who cannot save themselves. Resulting in a way for God to remain just and save them instead of sending them to hell.

Universal atonement does not save anyone. It only makes it possible for people to save themselves through obedience to a law fabricated from the gospel.

Law only works with free will. So they imagine the gospel to be law and free will the way to keep it.

Limited atonement = gospel of grace apart from works. “Whoever believes has eternal life”. Universal atonement = gospel of law dependent on obedience/works. “Whoever chooses to believe earns eternal life”.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The Atonement cannot be "unlimited", as this equates to universal salvation! Jesus' Death is unlimited, because He died for the entire human race, from Adam to the last person!

 

[asterisktom]

The Atonement cannot be "unlimited", as this equates to universal salvation! Jesus' Death is unlimited, because He died for the entire human race, from Adam to the last person!

Did Christ die for the whole human race? Adam, Moses, David, yes, of course. But did He die for Pharaoh? Scripture says he was raised up specifically for a different purpose.

16But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. Ex. 9:16

15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Romans 9:15-18

Did Christ atone provisionally for all those who had long since died in their sins? If not then the Atonement is limited.

Almost everyone believes in limited Atonement.
The Reformed believe does, of course. Limited in scope. (as in - not everyone).
But many non-Reformed do too. They believe the Atonement is limited in efficacy. A person must first exercise their (they assume) faith. The Reformed believer understands that faith, too, is given by God. And not given to everyone.

 

[37818]

Jesus Christ ) slain from the foundation of the world ( meaning that His purpose to go to the cross was decided then ).

No. See usage of "from" the foundation of the world in Luke 11:50 and Hebrews 9:26.

 

[37818]

Ok....I am full of questions (sorry).

1 John 2:2 - I understand that Christ is the propitiation for our sins (I understand "propitiation" to mean an appeasement, or a sacrifice through which people avoid wrath).

1 Corinthians 15:3 - I understand that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scripture.

Isaiah 53:6 - I understand that our iniquities were laid upon Him.

Romans 5:8 - I also understand that Christ died for us.

When you say that Christ "paid for our sins" what do you mean?

Leviticus 17:11, Isaiah 53:10 and Isaiah 53:12 and Matthew 27:46, Psalms 22:1, Psalms 22:6 and John 19:28.

 

[agedman]

No. See usage of "from" the foundation of the world in Luke 11:50 and Hebrews 9:26.

Your verse references only solidify that “foundation of the world” means from the beginning of when human time began.

Where do the Scriptures state a name was added to the Book of Life after time was started?

I assume you are taking “from” to mean a continuum that has a starting point as “from here to there.”

I take the view that the book of life is a single book formulated and completed AT the foundations of the world, for I have only found references to name taken out or blotted out, not added.

 

[37818]

Your verse references only solidify that “foundation of the world” means from the beginning of when human time began.

Where do the Scriptures state a name was added to the Book of Life after time was started?

I assume you are taking “from” to mean a continuum that has a starting point as “from here to there.”

I take the view that the book of life is a single book formulated and completed AT the foundations of the world, for I have only found references to name taken out or blotted out, not added.

An event which was time in between the foundation of the world and a now.

 

[JonC]

Isaiah 53:10 and Isaiah 53:12 and Matthew 27:46, Psalms 22:1, Psalms 22:6 and John 19:28.

Isaiah 53:10 - I understand this verse to be saying that Jesus suffering was by the will of God. It pleased God to bruise Him - to put Him to grief. He (Jesus) was made an offering for sin. But through this He will be glorified.

Isaiah 53:12 - I understand your point here to be that Jesus bore the sin of many and made intercession for our transgressions.

Matthew 27:46 and Psalms 22:1 - This was foretold in the Psalms. Jesus cried out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?". In the Psalm we see a wonderful prophesy of the cross. The Servant is forsaken by God to suffer and die. Yet through this suffering we are redeemed. The Servant is not delivered from death, but through death as God is proven faithful to deliver the Righteous One and answers His cry.




Psalms 22:6- Yes, the people despised Jesus.

John 19:28 - This was already alluded to in the last post. Jesus suffered and died according to Scripture. I view the entire Scripture ultimately to point to Christ and God's own glory.

But my question is what you mean by Jesus "paying for our sins". Do you mean a "sin debt", "men redeemed or purchased from the bandage of sin", or something else?

 

[37818]

Your verse references only solidify that “foundation of the world” means from the beginning of when human time began.

As in Luke 11:50 and Hebrews 9:26.

 

[37818]

Isaiah 53:10 - I understand this verse to be saying that Jesus suffering was by the will of God. It pleased God to bruise Him - to put Him to grief. He (Jesus) was made an offering for sin. But through this He will be glorified.

Isaiah 53:12 - I understand your point here to be that Jesus bore the sin of many and made intercession for our transgressions.

Matthew 27:46 and Psalms 22:1 - This was foretold in the Psalms. Jesus cried out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?". In the Psalm we see a wonderful prophesy of the cross. The Servant is forsaken by God to suffer and die. Yet through this suffering we are redeemed. The Servant is not delivered from death, but through death as God is proven faithful to deliver the Righteous One and answers His cry.




Psalms 22:6- Yes, the people despised Jesus.

John 19:28 - This was already alluded to in the last post. Jesus suffered and died according to Scripture. I view the entire Scripture ultimately to point to Christ and God's own glory.

But my question is what you mean by Jesus "paying for our sins". Do you mean a "sin debt", "men redeemed or purchased from the bandage of sin", or something else?

The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23 and that of the soul, Ezekiel 18:4 and James 5:20. His soul for our's, per 1 Timothy 2:6.

 

[JonC]

The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23 and that of the soul, Ezekiel 18:4 and James 5:20. His soul for our's, per 1 Timothy 2:6.

I agree with those passages and understand that He gave Himself a ransom for all. We were certainly purchased with a price.

I apologize that I am not articulating my question well. I'm not quite getting at what I am trying to get at. It's not your fault, but mine and I appreciate you taking the time with me not only to try and answer my questions but also to provide Scripture in reference to your posts.

 

[1689Dave]

As in Luke 11:50 and Hebrews 9:26.

You need to consider God's eternity where time does not exist. Jesus says believers have eternal life. This means they were always saved in God's eternal plan, without beginning or end. Try to fit your interpretations into this framework.

 

[Dave G]

No. See usage of "from" the foundation of the world in Luke 11:50 and Hebrews 9:26.

1) " that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;" ( Luke 11:50 ).
" να εκζητηθη το αιμα παντων των προφητων το εκχυνομενον απο καταβολης κοσμου απο της γενεας ταυτης"
Exactly.

Verse Analysis: Luke 11:50 - Textus Receptus Bibles
See usage of "from" in the Greek for that passage ( Revelation 13:8 ) as well:

" και προσκυνησουσιν αυτω παντες οι κατοικουντες επι της γης ων ου γεγραπται τα ονοματα εν τη βιβλω της ζωης του αρνιου εσφαγμενου απο καταβολης κοσμου"
Verse Analysis: Revelation 13:8 - Textus Receptus Bibles

Strong's G575, " ἀπό", or "apo", meaning:

2. of origin
a. of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
b. of origin of a cause


2) " for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." ( Hebrews 9:26 ).
" επει εδει αυτον πολλακις παθειν απο καταβολης κοσμου νυν δε απαξ επι συντελεια των αιωνων εις αθετησιν αμαρτιας δια της θυσιας αυτου πεφανερωται"

Exactly.
Same word, same definition.
Verse Analysis: Hebrews 9:26 - Textus Receptus Bibles

2. of origin
a. of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
b. of origin of a cause

 

[Dave G]

Names are not written in the Book of Life when people come to the knowledge of their Saviour ( the term that some people call, "get saved" or the point of belief ).
They were written in the Lamb's Book of Life from ( dating "from" or beginning at ) the foundation of the world, and those are the names that are associated with the people that were given to Him by the Father ( John 6:65, John 17:2 )...

His elect, and no others.

Again, salvation is not, and never was, dependent upon our efforts.
It was only dependent upon God's efforts on the part of His chosen people, of which the nation of Israel is a physical example ( a symbol ) of the spiritual choosing of a people out of every tongue, tribe and nation for His name's sake.


God the Father chose a people "in Christ" before the foundation of the world ( just as Ephesians 1:4 says ), wrote their names in His Son's Book, and His Son then came to earth, lived, died and rose again... for them.

The Lord Jesus gave His life for the sheep, not the goats.
He loves the sheep and "knows" them ( just as He is known of them, John 10:14 ), and gave His life for them....just as Matthew 1:21 and John 10:11 state.
He was stricken for the transgression of Isaiah's people, just as Isaiah 53:8 says.

That is why He will never say to them, "I never knew you" ( Matthew 7:21-23 ), and will only tell those that were never written in his Book by His Father ( and given to Him to save ), that very thing.

 

[37818]

1) " that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;" ( Luke 11:50 ).
" να εκζητηθη το αιμα παντων των προφητων το εκχυνομενον απο καταβολης κοσμου απο της γενεας ταυτης"
Exactly.

Verse Analysis: Luke 11:50 - Textus Receptus Bibles
See usage of "from" in the Greek for that passage ( Revelation 13:8 ) as well:

" και προσκυνησουσιν αυτω παντες οι κατοικουντες επι της γης ων ου γεγραπται τα ονοματα εν τη βιβλω της ζωης του αρνιου εσφαγμενου απο καταβολης κοσμου"
Verse Analysis: Revelation 13:8 - Textus Receptus Bibles

Strong's G575, " ἀπό", or "apo", meaning:

2. of origin
a. of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
b. of origin of a cause


2) " for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." ( Hebrews 9:26 ).
" επει εδει αυτον πολλακις παθειν απο καταβολης κοσμου νυν δε απαξ επι συντελεια των αιωνων εις αθετησιν αμαρτιας δια της θυσιας αυτου πεφανερωται"

Exactly.
Same word, same definition.
Verse Analysis: Hebrews 9:26 - Textus Receptus Bibles

2. of origin
a. of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
b. of origin of a cause

From or before, but never [at] "the foundation of the world."