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The Unlimited Atonement.
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Every ones sin have been atoned for. He died for the sins of the world. I did not say continual repentance. Once we are saved we are always saved after that. This not to say the consequences of our sin after Salvation do not exist... There is no such thing as getting away with sin The Father corrects us because we are His children.. If a man is not corrected then he is not one of God's children.
MB
Good question. The answer is that he hasn't condemned anyone while they are living. He has been reconciled to the whole world by the penalty paid by his son on the cross.
Heb 9:27 For as it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgement. But what about now while we live? Another good question. It is answered by the fact of the atonement (reconciliation) where God was not imputing sins. In John 3, it was not each person being lifted up on the tree, it was a replica of the snake that was being punished and was dying. I 2 Cor 5, God said he reconciled the world to himself through Christ and he made this statement in verse 21. For he hath made him to be sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
The key here is "in him." Reconciliation is a two way street. God is reconciled to men all at once. Men must be reconciled to God one at a time.
This is such a marvelous truth, it is breathtaking. The door of salvation is wide open now for whosoever will come.
JD, you're simply wrong.
Moreso, you didn't actually answer the question.
If Jesus atoned for all sins, including the sin of unbelief, how then can God justly send anyone to hell who have had their sins paid for?
QUOTE="AustinC, post: 2746242, member: 16342"]JD, you're simply wrong.]
If I am wrong about this then I am probably not really saved. Some topics that are posted here for discussion deals with what are called fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith. What one says and believes about them indicates whether they have embraced the salvation of God, because, at the end of the day, our salvation is based upon our believing what God says about Jesus Christ.
When God says in 2 Cor 5 that he has made Jesus Christ sin for the world, and punished him with it’s penalty so that we “might” be made the righteousness of God in him, this statement is either historically true or it is not true. Jesus Christ is God’s remedy for sin in his one time sacrifice on the cross. The way to God is wide open now, but narrow, and one must bow down to get through and each sinner must come. One cannot be wrong about this and get to God.
Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
The first use of the word world in this verse is “kosmos” the planet, and the second use is the word “Aion” age = time period.
It is because he has dealt with sin that he does not now impute sin to sinners while they live. Any and all sinners may come and have perfect and eternal cleansing in the blood. This is the fountain. If for any reason that men do not come then they cannot be reconciled to God, either in this life or the next. Because Jesus is the only way to God.
The man who argues about the veracity of these statements is the man who does not believe them. That is not me.
If I am wrong about this then I am probably not really saved. Some topics that are posted here for discussion deals with what are called fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith. What one says and believes about them indicates whether they have embraced the salvation of God, because, at the end of the day, our salvation is based upon our believing what God says about Jesus Christ.
When God says in 2 Cor 5 that he has made Jesus Christ sin for the world, and punished him with it’s penalty so that we “might” be made the righteousness of God in him, this statement is either historically true or it is not true. Jesus Christ is God’s remedy for sin in his one time sacrifice on the cross. The way to God is wide open now, but narrow, and one must bow down to get through and each sinner must come. One cannot be wrong about this and get to God.
Jesus Christ came into the world as the “LAMB” who takes away the sin of the world, we are told. The question is when did he put siN away. Do we know? Are we told? The answer is yes.
Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
The first use of the word world in this verse is “kosmos” the planet, and the second use is the word “Aion” age = time period.
It is because he has dealt with sin that he does not now impute sin to sinners while they live. Any and all sinners may come and have perfect and eternal cleansing in the blood. This is the fountain. If for any reason that men do not come then they cannot be reconciled to God, either in this life or the next. Because Jesus is the only way to God.
The man who argues about the veracity of these statements is the man who does not believe them. That is not me.
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All sin is paid for but you have to accept that when you first believe. When you repent you are turning from all sin and turning to Christ. It is unbelief that sends men to hell if you then believe then unbelief is wiped out with the rest of your sins. When you believe you are forgiven of all your sins and are seen as righteous.
MB
The sin has to be repented of before it is forgiven and the person has to believe in Jesus Christ.
MB
MB, you are mistaken.
Matthew 9:2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”
Luke 7:47-50 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.” And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?” And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Repentance is an effect of God's work in the heart of the one God chooses to redeem. It is not the cause. If it were, then a person is saved by legal action of the individual and the judge is therefore obligated to forgive the sentence.
MB, how is it you cannot see this?
I see what you are saying I just don't believe your interpretation of how Salvation comes about. What you are claiming is your own questions you ask your self. These verses do no support your view at all. Then she had already repented you claim she did not but scripture clearly states
This is Chrisst Him self that said this
Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
It is after repentance that we receive the Holy Spirit.
Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Paul also wrote;Act_3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
To deny this fact is to deny the teaching of Jesus.
MB
MB
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Is that not what John Wesley taught?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ( John 3:18 ). <----- Unbelievers are condemned already, and the evidence for that condemnation is their remaining in unbelief.
" But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;" ( 2 Peter 2:12-13 ) <----- False teachers are already condemned. The evidence that they are, is that they teach falsely and speak evil of the things that God's word teaches that they do not understand.
Then no one will be in Hell, and no one will be in the Lake of Fire.
Since He has reconciled all men to Himself, and the world has been reconciled to Him, then all of us are saved and have eternal life...which is to know God and His Son.
That is what it means, sir.
God either reconciles a people to Himself, or all people to Himself.
If a people to Himself, then He saves some and reserves the rest to everlasting punishment.
If all people to Himself, then He saves everyone...
Because one of the benefits of reconciliation ( going from being an enemy to being a friend ) is that all trespasses are forgiven ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
If all sin is paid for, then no one is currently suffering in Hell, and no one will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
They will not be judged according to their evil works, because all sin is paid for.
God cannot exact punishment for something that He has forgiven, MB.
That would make Him a liar.
Sin has to be repented of before it is forgiven ( as 1 John 1:9 seems to say )?
MB, I think you should look at the Scriptures regarding that subject a bit more, my friend.
If God's forgiveness of our sins, as His beloved children ( bought and paid for by the blood of His own Son ), were based on something that we do,
then that would make His forgiveness conditional;
Therefore His forgiveness would be based on our works, which then satisfy Him and cause Him to grant us His favor.
But the only one whose works we know actually pleased Him, were His Son's...
So instead of being forgiven of our sins based on Christ's finished work on the cross on our behalf ( and that alone ), it would be based on both His work and our "work"...
Wouldn't it?
My friend, are you telling us to rest on our efforts, or His efforts for us?
I've decided ( long ago ) to rest on His efforts on my behalf...
As my efforts are as filthy rags to Him, and nothing that I could ever do would cause Him to grant His forgiveness to me, a sinner desperately in need of a Saviour from myself and my own failings.
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This statement has nothing to do with pre-creation election to salvation from sin, for several reasons. The most important reason is because it is not what the scriptures says. Jesus says plainly that the reason for the condemnation is because he, the unbeliever, has not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God. The ones who believes in this passage are in the present tense, which means at some point in the past they came to believe in the name of the son of God. Those who are condemned failed to believe and Jesus said they are condemned because at present they have not believed. Jesus said they "have" not believed, indicating that at some point, if they believe they will no longer be condemned. Verb tenses are very important when studying the scriptures.
Another error you have is that this conversation takes place before Jesus died on the cross for our sins and resurrected from the dead. Therefore he is dealing with men who are charged to believe in his name, which is Jesus, meaning Jehovah is salvation, and that he is the only begotten son of God, which is the issue in this whole time period of his earthly ministry, and to offer proof of this truth is precisely why John wrote his gospel account of Jesus Christ. If you doubt that I am telling the truth, look what John says.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: (the gospel of John)
31 But these (signs = miracles) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Obviously if believing these things about Jesus assures one that he will live, then not believing them will have the opposite impact upon him. John recorded 7 major miracles of Jesus in this book that were signs that Jesus was the Christ who was promised would come to Israel. The Jews require a sign 1 Cor 1:22, and God has always confirmed his word to them with signs. Therefore, justification for these Jews after Jesus came to them in the flesh and before he faced the cross is achieved by believing what God says, when he says it, and if a man refuses to believe God, he will not be justified but condemned by his failure to believe. It is clearly stated that these Jews were required to believe that Jesus was the Christ, the son of God, and he said that by believing that they would have everlasting life.
It is interesting that not a single apostle or disciple understood that he would die and be buried , and rise from the dead. They did not even believe it after it was told them by eye witnesses who had seen and talked with him after he rose from the dead. Yet, they were justified. No one on this side of the cross after the Holy Spirit was given could be saved without believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, because Jesus said this to his chosen preachers.
Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
The gospel then is that he died for our sins and was buried, and rose again the third day. Believe it and be saved. Deny it and be damned, he said.
One cannot be an unbeliever in something that he hears or sees unless there is an opportunity to believe it. Where there is no law there is no transgression, we are told in the scriptures. These strangers that Peter speaks of here did hear and did not believe, yet joined the believers in order to deceive them.
Here are two statements from the same context. You judge by them if your musings makes sense.
Statement #1 - And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:18-19
Statement #2 - Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20
Here is why and how this can be true in statement #3 - 2Co 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
This means Jesus died ONCE for the whole world and the whole world has been reconciled to God, BUT each one in the world must be reconciled to him ONE AT A TIME.`
This is what Calvinists teach but it is not so.
No, all trespasses are not forgiven, they are atoned for. Because of the atonement where the sin offering of the sacrifice propitiated God and his wrath and anger against it was satisfied, he is not imputing the sins to the sinner while they live. After they die, having not come to God on bended knee through Christ, they will be judged for their own sins and will be judged for them and then pay the penalty of the second death in their own bodies.
That is the way it is.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
This will be my only set of replies to you in this thread, sir:
Whether or not I am in error, the Lord will judge.
Per Romans 1:18-32, we are all without excuse when it comes to knowing and believing who God is...
yet, there are still "atheists" who adamantly deny that there is a God who rules from Heaven.
The Gospel is much more than simply 1 Corinthians 15:1-6 and Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31.
I recognize your right to your opinion, the same as I have...only mine differs.
Similar to the above, I respect your right to assert your opinion here, as well.
Whether or not I am in error, the Lord will judge.
Sure they can.
Per Romans 1:18-32, we are all without excuse when it comes to knowing and believing who God is...
yet, there are still "atheists" who adamantly deny that there is a God who rules from Heaven.
I disagree.
The Gospel is much more than simply 1 Corinthians 15:1-6 and Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31.
I disagree.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Here in the above I see you asserting your opinion, and agree that, to you, it is not so.
To me, I happen to agree with them on a great many things that they teach.
I have no idea how you arrived at the above, but according to the Scriptures in Romans 4, He does not impute the trespasses of all those that believe.
" Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 [saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." ( Romans 4:4-8 )
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
It seems that you would have me to believe that all men are blessed of God, in this life, despite what other Scriptures say on the matter:
" Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." ( Galatians 3:6-9 ).
Trespasses not imputed = forgiven of sins = blessed of God = in Christ = They which be of faith.
They are all the benefits of the same unique and amazing gift...
That of eternal life given to a child of the living God.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
" Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.." ( 2 Corinthians 5:19 ).
In the above I see that "the world" ( see Revelation 7:9, those out of every tongue, tribe and nation ) that is reconciled to Him is the same as "if any man be in Christ", and, "us" ( believers ) that are reconciled in the previous verses.
" And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;;" ( Colossians 2:13 ).
Yes, all trespasses are forgiven those that are reconciled ( the believer ), according to this...
As well as atoned for.
The ones that are not atoned for, are not reconciled to Him...Neither are their trespasses forgiven them.
It's a package deal, JD.
Reconciliation is the Lord making His enemies His friends by His Son's work on the cross...
Forgiveness of sins is included in that reconciliation.
As in the above, I recognize your right to your own opinion;
But you declaring to me that "that is the way it is" does no more to convince me of the truth of what you say, than me telling you the same, sir.
That said, I wish you well, and good evening to you.
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You are confusing contexts by quoting Rom 4. The purpose of Rom 4 is to show that the righteousness that God requires is not achieved by works, but by faith in what God says. Long before Jesus Christ came into the world God was imputing righteousness to those who will believe him. To prove to the Jews, if they have an objection to this, is that he uses 3 illustrations of this truth, proving it is a truth for all times. I will number the illustrations he gives in chapter 4.
1) Abraham - before the law was given Rom 4:1-5; 9-22
2) David - under the law of Moses - Rom 4:6-8
3) Paul and all Christians after the law - Rom 4:23-25
God is imputing faith in what he says for righteousness and works or lack of works has nothing to do with his justifying the believer. That is the point. I will quote that which pertains to our justification in this present age and how it occurs according to Romans 4.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it (righteousness) was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it (righteousness) shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
You are going to have to wrestle with a plain statement of God that puts a condition of believing him and what he says if you are going to advance the erroneous teachings of Calvinism that claims unconditional election, which is a doctrine out of the pit.
What I am saying is that the whole world is blessed through Abraham because Jesus Christ came through his lineage. Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and he made atonement for the whole world. The "children" of Abraham are those who had the faith in the promised seed of Abraham, which is Jesus Christ, typified by Abraham's own son, Isaac. There must be a birth before one is a son. Only those who believe the gospel of the son are children of Abraham in the context this information is given to us in Ga 3,.The context of Ga 3 will guide us into truth like the river banks guides the river if you will allow it. If you are just trying to prove a doctrine you like, then logic, reason, and meaning of words will not matter.to you.
I am being a little stiff here but you need to know why Calvinism is false and plain speaking is sometimes required to get the job done.
37818
Well-Known Member
Yeah. The specifics need to always be stated smiply, otherwise it is just an empty accusation.
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