The Unpardonable Sin

[Darrell C]

Here is something to study later when you have time. The gospel of Matthew and the Acts of the apostles both have 28 chapters and follows basically the same chapter and theological breakdown on major points. It is not coincidental that Jesus begins to speak of the mysteries of the kingdom of God during this age, a new age that begins with a planting and ends with a reaping, in Matt 13, and all this while he says that Israel is in a state of blindness and an unpardonable sin as a nation. Acts 13 is the distinct chapter where Paul receives his apostolic commission and begins his unique ministry to the gentiles.

While we are going to see correlation because Scripture is harmonious and consistent, we can't, in my view, draw an exact parallel as you suggest here. If you see it, I don't have a problem with it, so I am not saying you are wrong in your view. However, I try to draw correlations and identify distinctions as they are given.

Some do what you describe with the Judgments of Revelation, the Seal, Trumpet, and Vial/Bowl Judgments. They think they are the same judgments, but described differently.. It is the correlations they try to draw by which they seek to support their view. But it is the distinctions that deny their view is valid.

In regard to Acts, I see it as ultimately open-ended. Matthew comes to a dramatic conclusion, and ends with the Ascension, Christ's return to Heaven (which is what I would describe as "pivotal" in the vein of what you are saying).

So, for 12 chapters ending in Matt 12, Jesus has been preaching that the kingdom that was prophesied in all the OT prophets was now at hand and all they needed to do is to receive the King who was now in their midst. Matt 12 is obviously the ending of a growing season because Jesus said in that chapter that the fields were white unto harvest but the laborers were few and asked for prayer that he would send laborers into his harvest. Obviously the harvest time ended without the reaping of the harvest and the very next chapter we have Jesus speaking in parables and telling of a new planting season and how that crop would develop over the whole season until it was ready to harvest.

And here is a Dispensational standard I think might be lacking in your conclusions: there was no ability in men to "receive" Christ during His Ministry due to the fact that the Gospel was a Mystery and would not be revealed until Christ returned to Heaven and sent the Comforter.

At the end of Matthew, He returns. At the beginning of Acts He returns. Not many days after His Ascension He sends the Promised Spirit.

So the disciples being sent out is still a ministry to the Lost Sheep of Israel, not the beginning of a new planting or reaping. The "Gospel" the disciples preached was not the revealed Gospel of Christ, it was the veiled Gospel of Christ centering on the promised Kingdom of Old Testament Prophecy.

This is why Peter rejected the Gospel, despite hearing it from the Lord Himself:


Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Note that the Gospel of Christ is given them very late in His ministry, just before His death ("From that time forth...").

Note that Peter doesn't want this to happen. Not a moment of weakness in his faith, but a fact that The Faith had not yet come:


Galatians 3:23-25 King James Version

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


All of Christ's Ministry was under the Law:


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


The Dispensation (Administration) of the Gospel did not begin until He returned and sent the Comforter, who would begin convicting men of sin, righteousness, and judgment based on His "speaking of Christ:"


John 16:7-9
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


John 16:14 King James Version

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


So the disciples ministered the Gospel according to the revelation provided them at that time. It was revealed to them that Jesus was in fact the Messiah promised to come, and that He was the Son of God (and this is what the Lord forbids them to reveal in Matthew 16:20):


Matthew 16:13-18 King James Version

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


This was divine revelation from the Father, but it did not nullify the fact the Gospel remained Mystery to them. Hence Peter's rejection of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We have to keep that in mind when we are looking for pivotal events.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The kingdom of the OT is no longer "at hand" at the end of Matt 12.

It is. And will be until the Day of Pentecost.

It will not be until several days after Matthew ends that the Kingdom we are now part of will begin.

Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matt 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

This ministry was for Israel only. Only the Lost Sheep.

While we understand the Mystery they did not. Not even the disciples.

And if you look at the parables, JD, you will see how they have an application to the Millennial Kingdom. They have practical application for us, to be sure, but in view are conditions that will exist in the Millennial Kingdom. This is an aspect of partial fulfillment of Prophecy.

So, by Matt 12 Jesus Christ was rejected by his own people to whom he had made kingdom promises through her rulers, not for claiming to be their savior, but for claiming to be their King and they decided to put him to death.

Matt 27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.

I would still point out that Christ's death takes place at the very end of His ministry to Israel.

Secondly, they also rejected Him because they did not have the Father revealing to them that He was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Third, they rejected Him because He "made Himself God" by claiming to be the Son of God:


John 10:32-33 King James Version

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

In the Acts they rejected his salvation, Jesus Christ in the person of the Holy Ghost.

As you have rightly noted, they rejected Him before Pentecost.

Isn't our context in Matt 12 about this house (family) that had been cleansed of it's devils?

No, not really.

First, the parable deals with the man, not his house.

Second, this is given to illustrate the truth He has just given them in regards to why it is foolish to think Satan is destroying part of his kingdom in order to strengthen it.

Third, it is given to illustrate the primary truth and thrust of the entire chapter, the Gospel of Jesus Christ:


Matthew 12:26-32 King James Version

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


Christ draws a distinction between His earthly ministry and His Eternal Ministry. The Son of Man is in reference to the Incarnation, as opposed to the Eternal Son of God, the Creator. Those who were speaking (and speak) against the Son of man in a temporal context can be forgiven, but those who reject the Ministry of God cannot be forgiven, because it is direct revelation of God Himself.

In the temporal context of the Son of Man there is an intellectual attendance among all of the people because God is not revealing the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ to any man.

Keep in mind that Christ commanded men to "believe," yet they were not able to believe yet in regards to trusting the Risen Savior. First, because Christ had not yet died, and, secondly, the Gospel remained a Mystery. So that command is looking toward the day that men would begin to believe in Christ from an eternal perspective rather than a temporal perspective. This is true of John 15 in regards to "The True Vine." When Christ is stating "abide in me, and I in you," we do not forget that John 14:15-23 speaks of this as a future event in the lives of the disciples. Thus speaking against the Son of Man has a primary application prior to His Death, Burial, and Resurrection, but speaking against the Holy Ghost is looking to that future day when He would return to Heaven, send the Comforter, and men would begin to reject that convicting ministry.

The Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is unpardonable because it is a rejection of the very means of salvation.

Isn't it about the unpardonable sin.

Yes. And we need to keep the available revelation men had that day distinct from the revelation we received beginning at Pentecost when Christ began baptizing men with the Holy Ghost.

Christ ministered with the revelation He had already provided to men in the Hebrew Scriptures. He ministered in accordance to the Promises that had been given to Israel. And He ministered only to Israel:


Matthew 15:23-24 King James Version

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


The fact that He also came to minister to the entire world doesn't change the reality of His sole ministry to Israel. This was to fulfill Prophecy concerning Himself. And that Prophecy was fulfilled partially, and there is yet a fulfillment for Israel at a future date. They will receive the Kingdom He very much preached about and sent the disciples to preach about.

Consider:



Luke 4:17-21 King James Version

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


Now look at the prophecy as it was given:


Isaiah 61:1-3 King James Version

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.


He did not, at that time, fulfill all of it. The Day of Vengeance is yet to come, and it is specific to His Second Coming (which was a mystery) in that the prophecy speaks of comforting those who mourn. The "trees" made righteous are the "branches" of the Olive Tree of Romans 11, and in an eternal context the branches of The True Vine.

All of that to make the point that when we interpret the Gospels, we have to distinguish who He is ministering to, and the revelation of God's will that He used to do that with. Dispensational Theology is about the only system that does that in a manner that the distinction is usually made clear (not that there are others that don't).


Continued....

 

[Darrell C]

And didn't Jesus Christ go out of the house and begin preaching to the multitudes of common folk in parables from a ship anchored in the sea, a metaphor for the mass of humanity?

It's an interesting observation but doesn't help to support Israel taking on a Gentile Nature.

(Remember, they must be born again before entering the kingdom, Jn 3:7)

That is correct. But no man would be able to be born again until Christ was lifted up (John 3:9-16).

I don't know about you but I think the scriptures make plenty of sense and are reasonable and sensible.

I agree.

I can tell when God pivots. I can understand when he leaves a house where he is speaking to Jewish rulers about the end of one age and that it is time to harvest to going out of the house to speak to common people about a new age coming and explaining how it will develop and what the harvest of it will be like.

Jesus' ministry to Israel was through His entire earthly Ministry. He was ministering to both Jew and Gentile when He died on the Cross.

Israel is still Israel, and until the fullness of times comes Israel will remain blinded to the truth of the Gospel. But when that veil is lifted it will be lifted from the eyes of Israel:


2 Corinthians 3:13-16 King James Version

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.


It is Israel in view, and the veil is the Mystery of the Gospel.

When Israel turns to God in the Day of Judgment (Isaiah 61:2; Daniel 9:24-27) the veil will be taken away. The blindness will end.

This will be a National event, not simply an individual event as it is in regards to the Remnant. The Remnant are those being saved now, but when their hearts are turned to Christ all Israel shall be saved:


Romans 11:25-27 King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


They, just as we were, are saved by being brought into New Covenant relationship with God.

I will answer some other of your points as I have time. Thanks for the conversation.

I'm enjoying it, JD, but it does take a lot of time, so I understand what you mean, lol.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Yes. I will give you one example where you could be greatly blessed and light, which is understanding, could be increased for you.

Recently on another thread I suggested to you that Jesus Christ breathed the Holy Spirit into his disciples on the evening of the same day he resurrected from the dead. You immediately disagreed that the gift of the Spirit was given to them that day and in that manner.

It is not just myself that disagrees with this, JD, it is Scripture itself:

Let me show you why the Lord breathing on them did not result in their receiving of the Spirit (and some of this has already been given you and you have not addressed them):


First Point: the Promised Spirit (Ezekiel 36:27; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-23) could not come until Christ returned:


John 16:7 King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


And we see that Christ's departure was after Christ breathed on them:


Luke 24:49-51 King James Version

49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Acts 1:8-9 King James Version

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


What is the Promise of the Father? Being baptized with the Holy Ghost.

The disciples were not baptized with the Holy Ghost prior to His Ascension.

Is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost empowerment?

No, it is the moment of salvation, as defined by Peter:


Acts 11:13-18 King James Version

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


It's not open for debate: that is the Biblical definition of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Peter spoke the words by which Cornelius (and his household) were saved, that is, the Gospel of Jesus Christ (see Acts 10).

Peter correlates the salvation that occurs with the statement of Christ before He was taken up, that they (the disciples) would be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

God gave Cornelius the gift of salvation when he was baptized with the Holy Ghost, and that at that time God granted repentance unto life.

Were Cornelius and the disciples empowered when they were baptized with the Holy Ghost? Of course, but that doesn't equate to or justify making the Baptism with the Holy Ghost something it isn't.

So again, the first point is that the disciples did not receive the Holy Ghost promised by the Father and taught them by Christ (Acts 1:4) when He breathed on them. That could not take place until He departed (John 16:7).

John 14-16 is where you want to concentrate your studies to make certain that the "pivotal" event is found in Acts 2, when the disciples are baptized with the Holy Ghost, thereby receiving Him.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Yes. I will give you one example where you could be greatly blessed and light, which is understanding, could be increased for you.

Recently on another thread I suggested to you that Jesus Christ breathed the Holy Spirit into his disciples on the evening of the same day he resurrected from the dead. You immediately disagreed that the gift of the Spirit was given to them that day and in that manner.

Point Two: the disciples did not yet receive the revelation of the Gospel Mystery (Colossians 1:25-27; Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 3:4-5; 1 Corinthians 2). It is impossible for men to receive the Spirit of God and be baptized into Christ apart from the knowledge of the truth of the Gospel.

That's just basic, my friend.

Cornelius heard the words that saved.

The disciples heard the words but did not believe when they were told them (Matthew 16:20-23). That is why Christ said this:


John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


This is why the disciples still looked for that physical Kingdom that Dispensational Theology is always speaking about:


Acts 1:4-8 King James Version

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


Their minds are still carnal, looking for and desiring the promise of the Father that He would restore Israel.

Christ does not deny that promise, but states it isn't for them to know that at that time:


7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


And the Lord states that when the Holy Ghost has come upon them they will receive power (Be filled with the Holy Ghost):


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


And wouldn't you know it, like always, Prophecy is fulfilled exactly as it is given? See Acts 2.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Yes. I will give you one example where you could be greatly blessed and light, which is understanding, could be increased for you.

Recently on another thread I suggested to you that Jesus Christ breathed the Holy Spirit into his disciples on the evening of the same day he resurrected from the dead. You immediately disagreed that the gift of the Spirit was given to them that day and in that manner.

Point Three: not all the disciples were present, and Thomas was not breathed upo. Shall we say that only ten of the disciples received the Spirit but Thomas missed out?


John 20:22-28 King James Version

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


And there is no breathing on Thomas that we are told of. It could be that He did and it isn't mentioned, but it is far easier to simply look at the broader context of Scripture and see that having the disciples receive the Holy Ghost before Christ departed comes into conflict with Christ's teaching in John 14-16, hence this cannot be the case here.

Just as Christ told men they must believe, even so He is commanding the disciples to receive the Holy Ghost.

Just as He told the to abide in Him.

Were the disciples abiding in Christ in John 15? Not possible, because none of them were in Christ at that point.

While more could be said on this subject I have just spent quite a bit of time on this one point, so I will move on. If you answer these questions for yourself you will, for yourself, see by Scripture that no man received the Spirit of God until Pentecost.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Perhaps you did not believe that because it does not fit into your theological system of belief or it may be for some other reason.

It is for the express reason that Scripture denies this view. I think all Theological Systems view the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as an empowerment, the filling of the Spirit.

Dispensational Theology is one exception. So I am not sure if you can claim to be dispensational and fit the traditional teachings.

But, that is what John the apostle, who was there that day, said happened. I will quote it for you.

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

It is by this type of interpretive effort that Catholics justify a number of erroneous doctrines and practices. This is a command by Christ, nothing more. The future fulfillment of His teachings is still yet to come.

Or do we think Thomas wasn't able to remit or retain sins?

We can't nullify other teachings to support one. There is just too much denying they receive the Spirit here to ignore. Enough to dogmatically conclude they did not receive the Spirit at this time.

In John 15, because this same interpretive effort is employed, false teachers teach the disciples were in the True Vine at the time of the teaching, thus "Christians" can be cut out of the True Vine, and lose their salvation. The problem with that is that there weren't actually any born-again Christians then to begin with, so how can it be describing Christians losing their salvation?

It has a future application for the disciples. Just as receiving the Spirit does.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Fifty days later these same men were in the Jerusalem and this is said about them when the Holy Ghost was sent from heaven to baptize Israel.

Do you see what you are saying here?

Fifty days later these same men were in the Jerusalem and this is said about them when the Holy Ghost was sent from heaven to baptize Israel.

You're saying the Holy Ghost hadn't been sent from Heaven yet.

And that is correct.

How you conclude that He was "sent from Heaven to baptize Israel" is beyond me.

Israel has been blinded, remember?

You are creating a division in the Body that Scripture forbids. The twain are made one. That Jews were the first to be baptized into Christ doesn't create a division between Jew and Gentile members of the Church, because there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the Body of Christ.

Fifty days later these same men were in the Jerusalem and this is said about them when the Holy Ghost was sent from heaven to baptize Israel.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Secondly, are you suggesting that men can be in Christ apart from being baptized into Christ?

Third, the Holy Ghost doesn't baptize, Christ does, He is the Baptizer:


Matthew 3:11-12 King James Version

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

I would point out here that Christ baptizes with salvation (gathering His wheat) and with eternal judgment (burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire).


Fourth, we see that not a single disciple was baptized with the Holy Ghost, or into Christ until Pentecost.

So how again do the disciples receive the Holy Ghost in John 20?

Have you given the fact that they were filled with the Holy Ghost rather than being Baptized with the Holy Ghost (which is Eternal Salvation according to the Biblical Definition)?


John 14:15-23 King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


All of this will be fulfilled at a future date. No one is going to change that. The corollary being that the disciples were not indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost at that time, because they had not received the Spirit of God yet. And they would not until He departed.

Your own words deny what you are presenting, because you are forced to admit the Holy Ghost had not been sent from Heaven yet. It is not until He is sent that men can receive Him.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

A believer can have the Holy Ghost indwelling him but not be filled with the Holy Ghost.

I am aware of that, lol, I mention this every time I speak to those who believe men have always been regenerated in order to have faith. This is an error that arises through the same kind of interpretive effort you are presenting. It also ignores the clear teaching of Christ that Regeneration is a result of His being lifted up (John 3:9-14). So it is quite impossible for men to be regenerated before Christ's death.

You are basically offering the same argument to support men receiving the Spirit (the Promise of the Father being fulfilled) before Scripture through explicit teaching tells us it will be, and what conditions will need to be fulfilled. Christ's departure was a necessity, because He said it had to take place (John 16:7).

Believers are commanded to be filled with the Holy Ghost to accomplish the work of God by his leading and power.

I agree.

Believers are commanded to be filled with the Holy Ghost to accomplish the work of God by his leading and power. Take a look at this.

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

So, there was a condition for those of Israel to receive the Holy Ghost.

I agree. But I already showed you Acts 11:13-18 which shows that which Christ told them to await, the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, hadn't taken place (and wouldn't) prior to His departure.

And that by Biblical Definition the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is the moment of salvation. It is when men receive the Eternal Indwelling of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and when they are baptized into Christ.

These Holy Ghost filled preachers said that if they would repent of killing Jesus Christ and believe in his name along with being baptized in water,

Being baptized in water has no salvific value.

Yes, Peter commands them to be baptized, but baptism in that culture held a far greater significance than it does to ours.

Water baptism is an identification with Christ, and this identification could be very costly to Jews in that day.


Acts 2:38 King James Version

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Only the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is salvific.

Who grants repentance unto (eternal) life? Does He wait until someone is water baptized to do this?

Think of John the Baptist's baptism unto repentance: those who were baptized were professing that they had repented. When the Pharisees (and other Jews) came to be baptized he refused to baptize them because their fruit showed they had not actually repented:


Matthew 3:7-10 King James Version

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


So too, with Christian water baptism, the one being baptized is already supposed to be saved.

So I hope you aren't suggesting there is a validity to Baptismal Regeneration. If so, this would be a great departure from any Baptist I know of, apart from "Biblie Believing" or "Full Gospel" groups that aren't actually Baptist, but charismatics taking potshots at Baptists, lol.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

they would receive God's gift of the Holy Ghost.

I agree, and this is quite different from the filling.

The Holy Ghost is the life of God and is salvation from sin,

The Son of God is the source of salvation for man. While He is One, you are overlooking the fact that the Eternal Son (not the Spirit) took up residence in the fleshly body God created for the purpose of Atonement.

While He ministered as the Son of Man the Holy Spirit is described as a separate personage to the Son.

When we are baptized into Christ we are immersed into God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. He also takes up residence in us.

That is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. We receive God, and we are placed into God.

And the fact remains that this eternal union did not begin until Pentecost.

A command to the disciples to receive the Holy Ghost was not the fulfillment of the promise as made clear by Christ Himself in Acts 1:4-5. The Holy Ghost was not yet sent, and the disciples were not yet witnesses of Christ.

Why? I was hoping you would ask: because it is the Comforter that reveals the Mystery of the Gospel to men. That is how you and I came to understand the spiritual things of God, particularly the Gospel.

And it is His indwelling presence and enlightenment that allowed the disciples to stop preaching about the (physical) kingdom of God and begin preaching the Eternal Kingdom:


1 Peter 1:12 King James Version

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The Holy Ghost is the life of God and is salvation from sin, but he must be in a man to give him life.

That is correct. And since the disciples had not yet received the Promise of the Father not many days before Pentecost, and had not been Baptized with the Holy Ghost, and were not yet witnessing to Jews, GEntiles, and the other parts of the world, why would you conclude they received the Spirit in John 20?

Especially when you have to admit that the Holy Ghost was sent down from Heaven on the Day of Pentecost?

This is not a condition for gentiles to receive the Holy Ghost when God opened the door of faith to us some ten years later in Acts 10.

See how your doctrine is creating a division in the Body that does not exist in Scripture?

You are saying there is Jew and Gentile. Scripture denies that.

Consider again:


Acts 11:17 King James Version

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?


See that?

Jew and Gentile are saved the exact same way. You know it. I know it. Scripture states it.

There is no record of these apostles ever being baptized in water to receive the Holy Ghost like those of Israel whom they were instructing as late as Acts 20:1-7.

Because water baptism isn't wasn't necessary to their salvation.

Only being baptized with the Holy Ghost by Christ is.

One Lord (Christ), One Faith (in Christ), One Baptism (by Christ).

There is a record that they already had received the Holy Ghost and I quoted it to you from John 20. Whether you believe it or not is up to you.

Sorry, but that isn't "a record they had already received the Holy Ghost." You are eisegeting the text and failing to properly exegete others.

The conclusion is erroneous.

Whether you believe it or not is up to you.

I agree: only what Scripture teaches matters.

There is a difference in the baptism of the Holy Ghost
The gift or the receiving of the Holy Ghost
and the filling of the Holy Ghost.

I know, lol.

People before the death, burial, and resurrection were filled with the Holy Ghost but they were not regenerated by him at the time.
1) John the Baptist in his mother's womb - Lk 1:15
2) Zacharias Lk 1:67
3) Elizabeth Lk 1:41

I know, and if you rea my earlier responses you will see that is precisely what I said. So not sure why you would feel I am unaware of this, unless it's a matter that you didn't bother to read my responses (which is kind of typical in responses as detailed as these are). Go back and read them.

Israel was baptized (immersed) with the Holy Ghost,

Sorry, no. Israel was blinded, and the individuals of Israel who did believe were baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Israel was baptized (immersed) with the Holy Ghost, meaning he was poured out from heaven is such abundance that every one of them could receive him.

Sorry, no. Just because the Comforter is ministering to the world doesn't mean the world is baptized with the Holy Ghost.

It is the Holy Ghost that ministered in the heart of Cornelius, but Cornelius was not saved until he was baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Later he was poured out on the world in the same abundance.

Acts 11;15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us (Jews) at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them (the gentiles) the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

There simply is no "Israel and then Gentiles" in the Church, the Body, there is the one new man.

That Gentiles were saved after Jews began to be saved doesn't create "two parts to the body of Christ."

I can't believe you would quote this and completely ignore the rest of the passage.

You have omitted that Peter was called to speak the words that save to them and that the Holy Ghost falling on them (as He did at the beginning, Pentecost) is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. I am glad, though, that at least some of my previous posts caught your attention.




Continued...

 

[JD731]

I
JD731 said: ↑

The very subject we are speaking of, the unpardonable sin, notes a pivot point from where God is offering the Jewish leaders the kingdom by them receiving him as the promised King, Matthew 1-12, to this being taken from them and the characteristics of a resulting new age are given in 7 distinct parables in the very next chapter, thirteen.

I'm not sure if you are saying this is a pivot point within a dispensation of God. If you mean this is how a new age begins I would agree. One issue, though, would be that there was never a possibility that Israel would "receive" Christ, and one reason is, I believe, because they had not yet had the Gospel revealed to them. It remained a Mystery until the Comforter began revealing it to men for the first time at Pentecost.

I am still at your post 47 because I want to discuss your points as they are given and over time I will get to all of them. I am dealing in this post with what I have highlighted.

The importance of types, figures, shadows, and similitude.

If any people on earth should have understood the method, if you will, of God's redemption, it would have been the Jews. They had physically practiced the ceremonial laws, which were designed to teach in their temple worship the approach to God was through and by a bloody sacrifice. That they continually brought sacrifices year by year was instruction to them that a sufficient and eternal sacrifice had not yet been provided by God.When Jesus Christ appeared the very first word they heard out of the mouth of the fore runner to the redeemer of Israel was, "behold, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world."

You might say, well, he came to establish his kingdom on the earth as the OT prophets had said, but Jesus said it could not be established until all Israel were redeemed as one man. Scripture after scriptures was presented by Jesus and his disciples whom he chose to convince that he was their promised Messiah and King. Notice the order of the ministry to Israel by Jesus Christ. They must first receive him as the promised King and then they must receive him as the promised savior. The kingdom of Jesus Christ is not only to be external and real physically, but it is a heart thing as well.The problem the Jews had during the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ is that they would not receive him by believing that he was the Messiah, the Son of God, in spite of all the irrefutable evidence that he presented to them.

John, the apostle, who would write his gospel in about 90 AD, 30 years or so after the dispersion and breakup of the nation in 70 AD, would explain to the world where the Jews now are, these words of why he is writing his record of the ministry of Jesus Christ. Take a look.

Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these (signs) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Here is what Jesus said to the Jews before his sacrifice on Calvary.

Mt 21:28 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Mr 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.

If the coming of Jesus was the fullness of the time as Gal 4:4 says, and if Jesus Christ spoke unto the Hebrews in the last days of that age, as recorded in Hebrews 1:2, and said that his kingdom through them was nigh at hand, and all they must do for it to happen is repent toward God and believe on Jesus Christ, and he would establish his earthly kingdom through this people who had his law written in their hearts and the power of the indwelling Spirit to keep that law perfectly, then one could say the reason that God did not establish his kingdom at that time was not because he did not will it to happen but it was because the Jews did not believe.

I would like you to consider a comparison of scriptures here that is relevant to this subject;

Lu 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed [is] he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

Some were previously bidden to the great supper of the Lord. Can anyone guess who they are?

18 And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

The unpardonable sin. However, one must understand this in a national and ethical context.

This gives the reason for inviting previously uninvited guests to the great supper of God. It was because the invited guests refused to came.

Now, look at Romans 11:

Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Who is Paul addressing now? Can the bible be believed? He was previously addressing those who know the law of Moses, who are Jews, see Rom 7:1.

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root [be] holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou (gentiles) wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou (gentile believers) standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Okay. How long will the natural branches be broken off according to the scriptures we are reading? The next verse tells us without any doubt.


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

These are the uninvited guests who became guests because of Israel's unbelief. If anyone were to think he is not speaking of Israel not believing, just read Romans 11 again. Only a small remnant of Jews believed and Paul says in the beginning of the chapter that he is one of them. This small group is not called Israel but the remnant according to the election of grace.

Jesus and Paul are speaking of the same full house and the text we have just read says that the house will be full when gentiles will no longer believe.

The liberals are here every day denying the kingdom of God and claiming that Israel and the church are the same and all the OT prophecies concerning God's election of the people of Israel as his own people is now the church. We are dealing with unbelief on a massive scale and if Israel during the days of Jesus was condemned for unbelief, how much more will we be since we have the whole bible and the revelation of Jesus Christ if we deny his kingdom and fail to comprehend it?

Ac 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:

 

[Darrell C]

Here is what that means. It means that everyone can drink him in because the Holy Ghost is like water.

Sorry, no, it doesn't mean that.

His Ministry, meaning the Comforter, is given to all men and women. Within this ministry natural man can understand the truth. It is at that time when they can respond to the Gospel being revealed to them.

But it is not until they receive Christ that they drink of that water:


John 7:38-39 King James Version

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Only those who believe receive the Holy Ghost. He must first reveal the truth of the Gospel before they can believe.

Then they drink.

Life giving and from heaven and without cost. Take a look.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Not a supportive proof text.

Let's find a correlation with a relevant passage:


John 6:53 King James Version

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


His blood was shed for the life of the world, but only those that drink of that blood benefit from His death.

My advice for anyone is to believe the words you read in the scriptures. One cannot go wrong if he does.

That's good advice, lol.


God bless.

 

[JD731]

Continued to Darrell C


Ac 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

 

[Darrell C]

I am still at your post 47 because I want to discuss your points as they are given and over time I will get to all of them. I am dealing in this post with what I have highlighted.

The importance of types, figures, shadows, and similitude.

If any people on earth should have understood the method, if you will, of God's redemption, it would have been the Jews. They had physically practiced the ceremonial laws, which were designed to teach in their temple worship the approach to God was through and by a bloody sacrifice. That they continually brought sacrifices year by year was instruction to them that a sufficient and eternal sacrifice had not yet been provided by God.When Jesus Christ appeared the very first word they heard out of the mouth of the fore runner to the redeemer of Israel was, "behold, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world."

You might say, well, he came to establish his kingdom on the earth as the OT prophets had said, but Jesus said it could not be established until all Israel were redeemed as one man. Scripture after scriptures was presented by Jesus and his disciples whom he chose to convince that he was their promised Messiah and King. Notice the order of the ministry to Israel by Jesus Christ. They must first receive him as the promised King and then they must receive him as the promised savior. The kingdom of Jesus Christ is not only to be external and real physically, but it is a heart thing as well.The problem the Jews had during the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ is that they would not receive him by believing that he was the Messiah, the Son of God, in spite of all the irrefutable evidence that he presented to them.

John, the apostle, who would write his gospel in about 90 AD, 30 years or so after the dispersion and breakup of the nation in 70 AD, would explain to the world where the Jews now are, these words of why he is writing his record of the ministry of Jesus Christ. Take a look.

Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these (signs) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

JD, what you are doing is ignoring everything I am saying. I am addressing each point in detail and you are ignoring those and going on to something else. I see no response to The Mystery of the Gospel of Christ in any of this response.

So I will refrain from addressing the last two posts you have done because you will simply go on to something else after I do that. I am trying to end my current visit and some of the things you have said (in the posts I addressed) I felt to be important issues that should be addressed. I have spent a lot of time because I am hoping that by presenting Scripture that addresses what I see to be error it will help you.

I have responded in short posts to make it easier, and again you give me a multiple-paragraph response without a single specific quote. The one quote you do post...

...you do not even respond to, lol.

So I will leave what is there for those who might be interested, and perhaps we can get the chance to discuss these issues again when I return (the Lord willing).

I feel I have given a sufficient Biblical Presentation for the objections I have raised: There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ, thus the notion that Israel "took on a Gentile Nature" is in error. They might behave like Gentiles, but they are still Israel.

Another is the disciples did not receive the Spirit in John 20. I was able to show this with your very own statement.

But, if you are interested in all as to why I object and are not simply bent on ignoring the responses and going on with your own teaching, okay. I am okay with that. My hope is that you will at least give some consideration to what is being said, and that this will help you.

You say you are a Baptist and Dispensational, but I am having a hard time seeing this in some of the views you present. Why that is the case can only be determined by reading my responses. Until you can address the objections raised, and all of them (as I have done in the posts I addressed), then I caution you about thinking your view is solid. Sound Theology is going to be able to address objections and explain why the objection is in error. It does not ignore those objections and move on to another argument.

I will see you the next time I come back to visit, hopefully, and we can take up our discussion/s again.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Continued to Darrell C


Ac 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

One last bit of suggestion: it would be a good thing to quote your antagonist by using the functions of the forum. It makes it really easy to quote a post and separate it. Just highlight what you want to respond to and hit "+ QUOTE" when +QUOTE/REPLY pops up. Then go to the bottom of the page to the response box and hit INSERT QUOTES. When the quotes pop up hit "QUOTE THESE MESSAGES." That will put the quotes in the order you highlighted them.

It just makes it a bit easier for your antagonist and brings upon you a higher responsibility to answer questions and objections raised to you. Very few on any forum I have ever been on will take very seriously those who only want to speak at them, rather than speak with them.

It's a discussion board, and it takes more than one person to have a discussion.

It's a debate forum, and it takes response on both parts to make it a debate. If you aren't able to debate, okay, most cannot. Because their doctrine will not allow them to answer questions and address objections due to the error their doctrine holds.

Okay, just trying to help you in this. I hope you will take discussion and debate more seriously and see the need to answer questions posed to you. If you want to speak with brothers and sisters about Doctrina and Practice, this is a good place to be. If you simply want to speak at people, perhaps a blog might be a better format.


God bless.


P.S.-Believe the words.

 

[JD731]

JD, what you are doing is ignoring everything I am saying. I am addressing each point in detail and you are ignoring those and going on to something else. I see no response to The Mystery of the Gospel of Christ in any of this response.

So I will refrain from addressing the last two posts you have done because you will simply go on to something else after I do that. I am trying to end my current visit and some of the things you have said (in the posts I addressed) I felt to be important issues that should be addressed. I have spent a lot of time because I am hoping that by presenting Scripture that addresses what I see to be error it will help you.

I have responded in short posts to make it easier, and again you give me a multiple-paragraph response without a single specific quote. The one quote you do post...

...you do not even respond to, lol.

So I will leave what is there for those who might be interested, and perhaps we can get the chance to discuss these issues again when I return (the Lord willing).

I feel I have given a sufficient Biblical Presentation for the objections I have raised: There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ, thus the notion that Israel "took on a Gentile Nature" is in error. They might behave like Gentiles, but they are still Israel.

Another is the disciples did not receive the Spirit in John 20. I was able to show this with your very own statement.

But, if you are interested in all as to why I object and are not simply bent on ignoring the responses and going on with your own teaching, okay. I am okay with that. My hope is that you will at least give some consideration to what is being said, and that this will help you.

You say you are a Baptist and Dispensational, but I am having a hard time seeing this in some of the views you present. Why that is the case can only be determined by reading my responses. Until you can address the objections raised, and all of them (as I have done in the posts I addressed), then I caution you about thinking your view is solid. Sound Theology is going to be able to address objections and explain why the objection is in error. It does not ignore those objections and move on to another argument.

I will see you the next time I come back to visit, hopefully, and we can take up our discussion/s again.


God bless.

You post massive amounts of material. I am dealing with the points as I come to them. I am on post 47, or maybe it is post 48. I am trying to address differences as I come to them in the conversation. I post your comments and you should have no trouble understanding what part of your theology I am dealing with. I told you that in post #73. I will eventually get to all your points. Going from one thing to another doesn't help anyone, I think.

If you want to bow out, that is okay. You can read my comments when and if you return. Let me encourage you meanwhile to believe the words you read. Most of the words in scripture needs no interpretation, they need to be believed. Such are passages like John 20.

There is a small blue upward arrow that will take you to the comments I am referencing if you click on it. Darrell C said and then the arrow.

And, by the way, I do not consider you an antagonist and I think I have told you that.

 

[JD731]

That is correct. And since the disciples had not yet received the Promise of the Father not many days before Pentecost, and had not been Baptized with the Holy Ghost, and were not yet witnessing to Jews, GEntiles, and the other parts of the world, why would you conclude they received the Spirit in John 20?.

Because the scriptures says they did. That should settle it.

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

You do not have to understand this to believe it. I encourage you to adjust your thinking.

Especially when you have to admit that the Holy Ghost was sent down from Heaven on the Day of Pentecost?

The ministry of the Holy Ghost to Israel began in Acts 2 when he was sent by the Father from heaven, like rain. The properties of rain water and the Holy Ghost is the same.

See how your doctrine is creating a division in the Body that does not exist in Scripture?

It is a perceived division on your part because of your confusing baptism . Baptism is not something that is inside a person. It is something that a person is inside. Consider John's baptism of Israel. It did not save them but it did gauge the heart and identified them with the work of God.

You are saying there is Jew and Gentile. Scripture denies that.

Consider again:


Acts 11:17 King James Version

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?


See that?

Jew and Gentile are saved the exact same way. You know it. I know it. Scripture states it.

That was 10 years apart. Gal 3 says the following.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise

This has the context of standing. All are children of God by receiving the Spirit of God. This Galatians was written in AD 49. In AD 58, some 9 years later Paul would say the following words;

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Okay, these passage must be reconciled if both are true, else God is not telling us the truth. Paul was saved here and he was still an Israelite according to his own inspired testimony. Not only that, but he wrote to the Ephesians in AD 60 and said that there was both Jews and gentiles in the church of Jesus Christ. They are both one though two entities in the same way a man and woman are two, yet by marriage they are one body. So says the scriptures. I encourage you to follow the logic of Ephesians 1-3 to see the wisdom of God in that book.
Thirdly, the feast and festival of Pentecost, the beginning of the church of Jesus Christ, which would eventually have Jews and gentiles in it had for it's feast two loaves, each with leaven in it, symbolizing sin in each of those members. If God would have wanted us to think in terms of one in the body he would have had only one loaf.

Fourthly, God stamps the church of Jesus Christ with the trinitarian signature. It is Jews, gentiles, and the Spirit indwelling. All things God creates have this signature and answers several things one may not understand about Israel, who in her salvation will include Judah, Israel, and the Spirit of God as one trinitarian man.

There are others things I could tell you but I do not have time right now. I will get to them later. I will deal with the baptism misunderstanding you have demonstrated when I post next time. I want to help you here.

Because water baptism isn't wasn't necessary to their salvation.

Only being baptized with the Holy Ghost by Christ is.

One Lord (Christ), One Faith (in Christ), One Baptism (by Christ).

 

[JD731]

I agree, and this is quite different from the filling.

Thanks Darrell C for your comments. You asked me to answer my objections point by point and I will briefly deal with your comments below. These are some places you lack light and understanding, I think.

The Son of God is the source of salvation for man. While He is One, you are overlooking the fact that the Eternal Son (not the Spirit) took up residence in the fleshly body God created for the purpose of Atonement.

Your first sentence is correct of course. However, the Son of God is also the son of man. Jesus Christ was made a man but he has always existed as God. As a man he has a body. He has a soul which dwells in his body. His soul is his personality. He has the Holy Ghost dwelling in his body without measure from his conception.

I must prove this with scripture or you might not believe me.

Body
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Soul
Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ps 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Joh 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Holy Spirit
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him (in his body) was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus (body in context) from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

There is one Spirit and he is said to be the Spirit of both the Father and the Son in verse 9. Therefore, the Spirit departed from the body of Jesus when he died on the cross, else he would be alive. The Spirit went to God who gave it and the soul of Jesus went to paradise, which was in the center of the earth. The lifeless but incorruptible body went to the tomb. At his resurrection, his body, soul, and Spirit were reunited by the power of the Spirit.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his (God's) Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

The trinity of man is in those two verses. The soul and body is the man part, and the Spirit is the God part. The Spirit is the divine nature. Look.

2 Peter !:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power (the Spirit is his power) hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The trinity is in those 4 verses and men will be a trinity when they receive the Spirit, the divine nature.
Lu 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

While He ministered as the Son of Man the Holy Spirit is described as a separate personage to the Son.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. The only time Jesus Christ was separated from the Spirit was during the six hours on the cross. He was also separated from the Father. That is what death is. Separation. Remember, John said, "in him was life, and the life was the light of the world." When the Spirit left him the world turned dark. So, Jesus our wonderful savior, suffered both spiritual death, separation from the Father and the Spirit, and physical death, separation of the soul from the body and the world. This is exactly how Adam died. Spiritually first and later physically.

When we are baptized into Christ we are immersed into God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. He also takes up residence in us.

This is not true either. The church is not the body of God the Father, it is the body of Christ. It is one body made up of many members. The scriptures teaches us that the Spirit whom God gives us as the gift to indwell our mortal bodies when we believe, also baptizes us, or immerses us, into his body as a functioning member in that body. He teaches us also that he will deliver that body to Christ when it is complete and she will become his bride. He gives us a physical and very real picture in a physical type in the OT when he formed Adam from the dust and then opened up his side and fashioned a woman who became his wife. Adam had the Spirit of God in him at that time and it was the Spirit who formed the woman. This is consistent with how the church of Jesus Christ is being formed. I remind you that both blood and water came from the pierced side of Jesus Christ. The blood represented his physical life and the water the spiritual life. Life had to come from Jesus Christ or there would be no church and therefore no bride.
The wife of God the Father is Israel for all eternity.

That is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. We receive God, and we are placed into God.

Wrong again. Here is the dynamics of this spiritual baptism, or the act of baptism by the Holy Ghost.

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Check this out.

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

And the fact remains that this eternal union did not begin until Pentecost.

It is a fact that the church did not begin until Pentecost in Acts 2 when the Spirit was sent from Heaven to indwell men and give them the divine nature.

A command to the disciples to receive the Holy Ghost was not the fulfillment of the promise as made clear by Christ Himself in Acts 1:4-5. The Holy Ghost was not yet sent, and the disciples were not yet witnesses of Christ.

Jesus Christ did not say to his disciples, as he ascended to heaven, Wait in Jerusalem until you are baptized with the Spirit, or until you receive him, but he told them to wait until they be endued with power from on high. The ministry of the Holy Ghost did not begin until Pentecost, and I would suggest to you that you try to understand the OT feasts and festivals of Israel because they are prophecy in types. The Holy Ghost was on the disciples during the ministry of Jesus. He was not in them. After he paid the sin debt, the Holy Ghost can now be in them because his blood has been shed and it is the blood that washes away sin of the believer in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Those disciples believed it in John 20. The lone disciple who did not believe it, Thomas, did not receive the Spirit. Read it for yourself.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Why? I was hoping you would ask: because it is the Comforter that reveals the Mystery of the Gospel to men. That is how you and I came to understand the spiritual things of God, particularly the Gospel.

The gospel is not a mystery.

And it is His indwelling presence and enlightenment that allowed the disciples to stop preaching about the (physical) kingdom of God and begin preaching the Eternal Kingdom:

Read Matt 13. When Jesus began to speak in parables it surprised the disciples and they asked him the meaning of the parables. So, it was the union with Christ that made it possible to know these mysteries. It is still true today. Everyone without a relationship with Christ are only guessing abou their meaning.

Mr 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Do not take offense when I say you are wrong. I know you are not intentionally misleading anyone. You just lack light on certain things.

God bless.