The use of Nekros in Ephesians 2:1

[MennoSota]

This is what Paul says, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins," Eph. 2:1

Were they actually not breathing, lifeless, dead as a door nail bodies??? No! They were spiritually dead. Physically they were alive, spiritually they were dead to God.

It has been several posters on here, you included, who have said we can use characteristics of a physically dead corpse to describe what Paul means here, thus applying an analogy. Paul CLEARLY says what this "Dead" means in this chapter...

"without God, having no hope"
"having the wrath of God abiding on us"
"Alienated from the promises of God"
"enemies of God"

There are some here who have went above Scripture and have ascribed characteristics of being "dead" that Scripture does not actually speak on.

No one is arguing that this is physical death. We are saying that a man's spirit is dead. Only God can make a man's spirit become alive.
Paul is literally talking about the human spirit in Ephesians 2:1.

Now, please show where Paul is making an analogy or allegory in this passage. So far you have avoided the issue.

 

[Rob_BW]

Just wondering, any chance that the dead analogy relates back to the ceremonial uncleanness of the dead under the law?

 

[JonC]

No one is arguing that this is physical death. We are saying that a man's spirit is dead. Only God can make a man's spirit become alive.
Paul is literally talking about the human spirit in Ephesians 2:1.

Now, please show where Paul is making an analogy or allegory in this passage. So far you have avoided the issue.

But if you continue on you will read :

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

This describes spiritual live more than applying physical death to Spiritual death. If you allow, Scripture will provide its own interpretation.

 

[MennoSota]

The acceptance or rejection of knowledge is truly central to the error here. Men are not saved by the knowledge they possess. An atheist may very well posses the exact knowledge as you or I about Jesus,

the difference being if God uses that knowledge to draw the man to salvation.

I believed Jesus the Christ long before I was saved; even the demons shutter.

We are not made alive so we can believe, but we are transformed by Christ and given Life.

The difference is one's spirit is dead while the other's spirit has been made alive by God.
God, by his sovereign grace, chose to give life to one spirit while leaving the other spirit dead in trespasses and sin.
It is all God.

 

[MennoSota]

See post #19.

M, I hope by now you know that I delight in being the "devil's advocate".

You suspected that all along didn't you

HankD

I just accept that you're a semi-pelagian, Hank. [emoji41]

 

[MennoSota]

Just wondering, any chance that the dead analogy relates back to the ceremonial uncleanness of the dead under the law?

What analogy?

 

[JonC]

Just wondering, any chance that the dead analogy relates back to the ceremonial uncleanness of the dead under the law?

I believe the dead analogy of some here goes back to a simplified and watered down version of the gospel where every aspect falls within a narrow and humanistic view of salvation. In terms of the Bible, I believe we are (or should be) dealing with a more Christ-centered understanding of Life and death, Light and darkness.

 

[MennoSota]

But if you continue on you will read :

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

This describes spiritual live more than applying physical death to Spiritual death. If you allow, Scripture will provide its own interpretation.

Jon, you are fixated on physical, yet I explained the passage is referring to a man's spirit. What are you failing to grasp?

 

[Yeshua1]

The acceptance or rejection of knowledge is truly central to the error here. Men are not saved by the knowledge they possess. An atheist may very well posses the exact knowledge as you or I about Jesus, the difference being if God uses that knowledge to draw the man to salvation. I believed Jesus the Christ long before I was saved; even the demons shutter.

We are not made alive so we can believe, but we are transformed by Christ and given Life.

Until enabled by the Spirit, sinners cannot understand the spiritual meaning of the scriptures, nor their state of being lost and needing Christ!

 

[JonC]

The difference is one's spirit is dead while the other's spirit has been made alive by God.
God, by his sovereign grace, chose to give life to one spirit while leaving the other spirit dead in trespasses and sin.
It is all God.

Yet Scripture says the difference is not the spirit of man but the Life that is in Christ. Apart from Christ, men are on an equal footing with God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet Scripture says the difference is not the spirit of man but the Life that is in Christ. Apart from Christ, men are on an equal footing with God.

Yes, as all have been comdemned and judged already as sinners, and are devoid of any spiritual life!

 

[MennoSota]

Yet Scripture says the difference is not the spirit of man but the Life that is in Christ. Apart from Christ, men are on an equal footing with God.

Yes apart from Christ, all men are dead in their trespasses and sins. (This is the equal footing.) Every human spirit is dead in sin.
God must animate the human spirit, which died at the fall. God does this solely by His choice according to His will by His grace. No human effort can ever accomplish it.
God determines who is in Christ and who isn't. God determined that before the foundation of the world.

 

[JonC]

Jon, you are fixated on physical, yet I explained the passage is referring to a man's spirit. What are you failing to grasp?

I fail to grasp the reason you attribute to the spirit a quality of life or death founded in the physical. I do not understand why it is necessary to add to a definition provided in Scripture. It seems that if it were best to speak of the lost as if they were corpses God would have done so. But instead He defined spiritual life and spiritual death in relation to Christ (not being made alive so that you can believe in Christ but that believing in Christ you are made alive).

 

[JonC]

Yes apart from Christ, all men are dead in their trespasses and sins. (This is the equal footing.) Every human spirit is dead in sin.
God must animate the human spirit, which died at the fall. God does this solely by His choice according to His will by His grace. No human effort can ever accomplish it.

I agree. But this was not my objection. My objection is the way some use "spiritually dead".

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree. But this was not my objection. My objection is the way some use "spiritually dead".

Well, some here would see is as sinners able to receive spiritual milk of the Bible, even though paul said that was impossible!

 

[MennoSota]

I fail to grasp the reason you attribute to the spirit a quality of life or death founded in the physical.

Because Paul does it in Ephesians 2.

I do not understand why it is necessary to add to a definition provided in Scripture. It seems that if it were best to speak of the lost as if they were corpses God would have done so.

God did so in Ephesians 2.

But instead He defined spiritual life and spiritual death in relation to Christ (not being made alive in so that you can believe but in Christ but that believing in Christ you are made alive).

No. You do not believe first. You have the process backward.
1) God makes me alive.
2) I believe. (Why do I believe? Because God gives me the gift of faith.)

 

[Yeshua1]

Because Paul does it in Ephesians 2.


God did so in Ephesians 2.


No. You do not believe first. You have the process backward.
1) God makes me alive.
2) I believe. (Why do I believe? Because God gives me the gift of faith.)

God enables the sinner to realize that he is lost, jesus saves, and to call upon that Jesus to save!

 

[HankD]

I just accept that you're a semi-pelagian, Hank. [emoji41]

Opinions are like noses, everyone has one.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

Opinions are like noses, everyone has one.

HankD

Well, just glad the Lord did not base salvation on passing a theological review/exam, as we all would have flunked!

 

[JonShaff]

I'm going to say my communication skills are failing me (although JonC seems to be picking up what i'm putting down )

Paul doesn't use an analogy. He states the condition that we are in, Dead to God. *WE* (People in this thread and another thread) have been comparing a physically dead person with a Spiritually dead person and ascribing similarities..."A corpse cannot reach for a life preserver". A dead man "cannot hear". A Dead man "Cannot walk", etc. TRUE, a physically dead person cannot do any of those things. But what can a Spiritually dead person do? What can he not do? You guys have taken the analogy too far in that you have not stuck with how the Bible characterizes a SPIRITUALLY dead person...see my list above.

I might even go as far as to say Paul wasn't giving an analogy at all, YOU guys are. Paul was relaying spiritual information about what it means to be spiritually dead. You are adding to the intended meaning of the text when you say things like "Dead men cannot reach for a life preserver."