The use of Nekros in Ephesians 2:1

[JonShaff]

@JonShaff, you are making the argument that you, yourself, make yourself alive when you believe. You cancel out your first statement when you pronounce your second statement.
One cannot believe until one is made alive by God. No spiritually dead person ever believed first and then became spiritually alive. @JonC, @Sovereign Grace and myself have all come to agreement on this issue. Why do you insist on your willful choice coming before your spirit is made alive in Christ?

How so? You said i said "You make yourself alive when you believe"...that is a lie from the Pit of Hell. God makes someone alive. You speak absurdities.

@JonC does not agree with you, he clearly said we are NOT made alive in Christ so that we can believe.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Ephesians 2: 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

These are just a few random observations:

"Quickened" means "made alive". "dead" means "dead"
Paul said that he was "alive once" but when the "commandment came" "sin revived" and he "died". When you're a baby, you were born a "sinner" but you haven't yet acted upon what you are. So when you sin the first time, that's when you "die", sort of like how Adam did in the Garden. Remember how God told him "thou shalt surely die"? Well after he ate that fruit, though he was walking around and breathin', spiritually Adam was now dead. To become "undead" WE, all must be "quickened" as per Ephesians 2:1.

Jesus, "The Truth" stated "Lazarus is dead", with me? So when Jesus, the Creator, "the Word" cried with a loud voice "Lazarus come forth", he was speaking to a dead man; still with me? But when the majestic and powerful "Voice" of Psalm 29 which breaks the cedars and shakes the wilderness, discoveres the forest and make the the hinds to calve" "thundered" across the chasm of death it was no problem for a dead man to hear.

Likewise, when a person gets saved, even today, God doesn't first "quicken" them so they can hear. He speaks to dead ears. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." John 5:25

 

[JonShaff]

@MennoSota It's noted that you have to twist people's words in order to make your argument. Satan does that too.

 

[Yeshua1]

Awesome, great points...got some scripture that lines up with those details?

Apostle paul stated that the natural man cannot receive the things of God, for they are spiritual, and one must be born again to receive them, correct?

 

[JonShaff]

Apostle paul stated that the natural man cannot receive the things of God, for they are spiritual, and one must be born again to receive them, correct?

Seemingly, Paul is speaking about "Post conversion". The Details of the Gospel are only understood fully by those who are Born Again and filled with His Spirit.

Does that mean God Can't open the heart of a Natural man and Cause Him to understand they are a Sinner in the Need of a Savior? It sounds LIke the Gospel Message itself--The Word and the Spirit Working together--have enough supernatural power in and of itself to reveal a person's need of a Savior.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2 Cor. 4 says when the Gospel is preached it shines light into darkness (reveal evil deeds and realities of sinfulness) and showing the beautifies of the Risen Savior.

Question:

Let's say America and Mexico are at war. And Americans come across a few mexicans who were enemies of the U.S.--Can they surrender?

Who says that the "spiritually dead" cannot surrender? One may say, "It's not in their nature!"

Ok, where is the scripture that says the enemy of God cannot surrender?

 

[Yeshua1]

Seemingly, Paul is speaking about "Post conversion". The Details of the Gospel are only understood fully by those who are Born Again and filled with His Spirit.

Does that mean God Can't open the heart of a Natural man and Cause Him to understand they are a Sinner in the Need of a Savior? It sounds LIke the Gospel Message itself--The Word and the Spirit Working together--have enough supernatural power in and of itself to reveal a person's need of a Savior.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2 Cor. 4 says when the Gospel is preached it shines light into darkness (reveal evil deeds and realities of sinfulness) and showing the beautifies of the Risen Savior.

Question:

Let's say America and Mexico are at war. And Americans come across a few mexicans who were enemies of the U.S.--Can they surrender?

Who says that the "spiritually dead" cannot surrender? One may say, "It's not in their nature!"

Ok, where is the scripture that says the enemy of God cannot surrender?

The sinner MUST have the Holy spirit enabling them to receive Jesus and the Bible as being from/of God!

 

[JonShaff]

The sinner MUST have the Holy spirit enabling them to receive Jesus

I agree

 

[SheepWhisperer]

The sinner must first be 'drawn' by the Holy Spirit through being convicted of three things (See John 16:8)
#1 Their sin
#2 God's righteousness
#3 The judgment of Hell

Here is an instance wherein God expected the hearers to choose:
Deuteronomy 30 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life.



And here it is the drawing of the Holy Spirit demonstrated:
“And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.” Acts 224:25

Felix, for those who haven't noticed, being dead in trespasses and sins, heard "the voice" and was under conviction of the Holy Spirit, but he did not "choose Life" and as we should all know "the life" is Jesus Christ.

 

[JonShaff]

The sinner must first be 'drawn' by the Holy Spirit through being convicted of three things (See John 16:8)
#1 Their sin
#2 God's righteousness
#3 The judgment of Hell

Here is an instance wherein God expected the hearers to choose:
Deuteronomy 30 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life.



And here it is the drawing of the Holy Spirit demonstrated:
“And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.” Acts 224:25

Felix, for those who haven't noticed, being dead in trespasses and sins, heard "the voice" and was under conviction of the Holy Spirit, but he did not "choose Life" and as we should all know "the life" is Jesus Christ.

Welcome to the board brother! I appreciate the way you handled the Word!

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Thanks for the welcome Brother!

 

[JonC]

How so? You said i said "You make yourself alive when you believe"...that is a lie from the Pit of Hell. God makes someone alive. You speak absurdities.

@JonC does not agree with you, he clearly said we are NOT made alive in Christ so that we can believe.

I believe we can discuss things like the necessity of the Spirit to understand truth and aspects of salvation such as conversion, regeneration, etc. individually, but once we assign one as primary we drift from Scripture. That is my problem with the whole "corpse" thing. Scripture never presents the necessity of being made spiritually alive so that one can understand so that one can believe so that one will be saved. It seems this thread is claiming this was never suggested, but I seem to recall that is exactly how I ended up on this thread. Some will cry to "logical orders" of things and say this is the order (a,b,c,d,) but the order is non-chronological (but try saying b,c,a,d).

Scripture tells us that God saves men. God converts men. God regenerates men. God makes men alive in Christ. Scripture never deals with these as steps, but rather elements of the same thing.

 

[MennoSota]

Scripture never presents the necessity of being made spiritually alive

Scripture tells us that God saves men. God converts men. God regenerates men. God makes men alive in Christ. Scripture never deals with these as steps, but rather elements of the same thing.

Going by your assertion and then reading your last paragraph, it comes across as though you reject the idea that a man has a spirit or soul and that a man is only physical. Is this your intention?

Here is the process.

Romans 8:29-30
[29]For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
[30]And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

Step 1: God knew his people in advance.
Step 2: God chose them to become like his son.
Step 3: God called them to come to him.
Step 4: God gives them right standing with himself.
Step 5: God gives them his glory.

 

[JonShaff]

Going by your assertion and then reading your last paragraph, it comes across as though you reject the idea that a man has a spirit or soul and that a man is only physical. Is this your intention?

Here is the process.

Romans 8:29-30
[29]For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
[30]And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

Step 1: God knew his people in advance.
Step 2: God chose them to become like his son.
Step 3: God called them to come to him.
Step 4: God gives them right standing with himself.
Step 5: God gives them his glory.

You only quoted part of his post. You constantly do dishonest practices like this. Not good.

 

[MennoSota]

You only quoted part of his post. You constantly do dishonest practices like this. Not good.

I shared what is important to the point rather than having the extraneous material stop you from seeing the parts of the text I am addressing. Anyone, like yourself, can go back and read the full section.
Now, do you actually have a point or are you just here to whine?

 

[JonC]

Going by your assertion and then reading your last paragraph, it comes across as though you reject the idea that a man has a spirit or soul and that a man is only physical. Is this your intention?

Here is the process.

Romans 8:29-30
[29]For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
[30]And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

Step 1: God knew his people in advance.
Step 2: God chose them to become like his son.
Step 3: God called them to come to him.
Step 4: God gives them right standing with himself.
Step 5: God gives them his glory.

No, that is not my intention. My intent was to offer an objection to the idea that spiritual death is comparable to a physical corpse, unable to act. My second goal was to bring out passages that reject men being made alive prior to salvation in favor of men being made alive in Christ (as the Way, the Truth, and the Life, without Whom all perish).

Sorry for my apparent cloudiness before.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 12:30 AM Pacific.

 

[MennoSota]

No, that is not my intention. My intent was to offer an objection to the idea that spiritual death is comparable to a physical corpse, unable to act. My second goal was to bring out passages that reject men being made alive prior to salvation in favor of men being made alive in Christ (as the Way, the Truth, and the Life, without Whom all perish).

Sorry for my apparent cloudiness before.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[scanner]

"hath he quickened,
is not in the original text,"

Really? How would he know? I wonder where the Original Manuscript Version is available? I know one thing for certain: if the originals were found (I speak as a fool) and a translation was published, it would be corrected 250 times before 50 years had passed. It would end up with the New International Original MSS Bible being the darling.

Excuse me while I see how many angels are dancing on the head of this pin.

 

[MennoSota]

"hath he quickened,
is not in the original text,"

Really? How would he know? I wonder where the Original Manuscript Version is available? I know one thing for certain: if the originals were found (I speak as a fool) and a translation was published, it would be corrected 250 times before 50 years had passed. It would end up with the New International Original MSS Bible being the darling.

Excuse me while I see how many angels are dancing on the head of this pin.

Jesus spoke all his words in King James English... [emoji56] [emoji8] [emoji41] [emoji6] [emoji2]

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

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