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The use of Nekros in Ephesians 2:1
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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The part where I disagreed before was (and is) in this illustration. It is not that man cannot understand, see, smell, taste and feel. It is that man cannot understand the gospel for what it is because apart from the Spirit we do not understand spiritual things (the spiritual aspects of the things we do understand).
The problem with the analogy some use of corpses (physical corpses) is that Jesus himself put on humanity. Jesus was as much natural man as you and I, yet without sin. I wonder if some even realize their ideas on this topic either nullifies the idea Jesus was truly human or deny that he was God. His existence was one of faithful obedience to the Father, even unto the death of a cross. Our fallenness is not an issue of substance, but a matter of the will. It is not an issue of understanding knowledge in a different way, but of having the Spirit of God dwelling in us. It's a matter of being not in the flesh but the Spirit, of dying to the flesh and living to God. The Spirit, not regenerated man, reveals all Truth.
I simply believe that some have taken a biblical concept and turned it into an illustration only to build doctrine off that illustration. In the end, what they have is a false allegory held as doctrine because it supports other teachings they believe to be true (and which may, in fact, be true).
The problem is not resolving the controversy, it's already resolved. The problem is getting people here just to admit I'm right.
Jon C said: A corpse cannot do anything to his benefit, this is true. But a corpse also cannot sin.
Dead IN sin is not the same as being dead TO sin.
The unregenerate is DEAD IN SIN.
The quickened is DEAD TO SIN.
Dead IN sin is not the same as being dead TO sin.
The unregenerate is DEAD IN SIN.
The quickened is DEAD TO SIN.
OH!The problem is not resolving the controversy, it's already resolved. The problem is getting people here just to admit I'm right.
HankD
I agree. My objection was the use of a physical corpse to describe what Scripture refers to as being "dead in sin and trespasses, objects of God's wrath". Those dead in sin are not there passively. They are not like corpses, unable to do anything. They actively reject the Light, implying a knowledge of but refusal to embrace what is there.
You see, brother, I believe that Jesus is both the Life and the Light that makes men alive (hence Paul's words "alive in Christ"). So I do not believe that we are born as a spiritual corpse, needing to be made a spiritual living being so that we can then choose God. I believe we are made alive in Christ, not to get there.
You can't be born as a spiritual corpse. You just are a spiritual corpse. [emoji57] [emoji41]
Whittling, we get down to the fact that we all agree that before Christ animates our spirit, we are spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins. Cleary you visualize that status of death differently, but we all agree that the spirit is dead in trespasses and sins. Only God, and God alone, can animate a dead spirit.
Guys, PLEASE take into consideration I am only 4 years removed from semi-Pelagianism with ZERO seminary background. Its gonna take me some time to grasp things.
If you want a whittled down version of my position, it is that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I think you supposed my argument otherwise, but never argued against the idea we could no more effect out own salvation than one who is dead can give himself life. My argument was against statements which went further as to imply God makes the dead alive so they can be saved. And the reason I objected was that such a position is nothing but a humanistic fiction because that Life given is salvation itself.
This doesn't answer my question...Please give Book, Chapter, Verse of anyone who will not have ears to hear/eyes to see and detail the audience being addressed/who is receiving that judgment as well as context. thank you!
Then we agree, You ascribed the Lord Jesus' Words (those without ears to hear) to Everyone when the context is really idolatrous Israel, correct?
I don't think so, brother. I'm addressing the "Who" of Isaiah's passage as well as Matthew's--The passages you are taking out context.Those outside the remnant of Israel are the non-elect of God. Thank you for proving my point. You worked harder to bolster my position than I did. Great job Brother.
I never read that argument into anyone's posts, but I can see why you had a red flag rising to the top of the flag pole, if that concept had been argued.
I completely agree with "the idea we could no more effect out own salvation than one who is dead can give himself life."
I don't think SG disagrees with that idea either, but I will let him speak for himself.
The person I can see disagreeing with this is @JonShaff.
Those who are spiritual dead though cannot understand the things in the Bible in a saving sense, as they read it, but have not the mind/heart able to receive it to save themselves!Scripture tells us that the spiritually dead can do quite a bit. They do evil deeds, they reject the Light, they walk in darkness, they consider the gospel message and determine it is foolishness, etc. I would look up those verses....but it is better to teach a man to fish.
We do not make ourselves "spiritually alive". I'm not sure where you even got that notion. God draws men to Himself. Again, my point was not that salvation is a work of man but that the use of a physical corpse to describe the attributes of being spiritually dead is both foolish and unbiblical. It is derived from distilling Scripture down to a few fragmented doctrines and then building theology upon those fragments. Scripture defines spiritual death for us, and as far as I know God did not ask our advise on a better way to put it. We are dead if we are not in Christ and we are alive in Christ. There is no point where Scripture says that we are made spiritually alive so that we can be saved (spiritual life is synonymous with being "in Christ, or being saved.
It is not that a spiritually dead man cannot hear because corpses cannot hear (hearing is an analogy as we don't have literal spiritual ears with little spirit ear drums that communicate to our tiny spiritual brains). What you are doing is building upon analogy. Just drop the analogy and discuss spiritual death.
the scriptures do say that God has to produce inus the new heart and open our minds to receive the Gospel message though in order to get saved!
Spiritually dead people can know about God, can read the bible, listen to sermons, but they will never freely decide to receive Jesus as Lord, as naturl state of a sinner is rebellion against God!
Awesome, great points...got some scripture that lines up with those details?
God makes us alive, we cannot in and of ourselves make ourselves alive.
We are made alive after belief/trust/faith, we are not made alive so we can believe.
@JonShaff, you are making the argument that you, yourself, make yourself alive when you believe. You cancel out your first statement when you pronounce your second statement.
One cannot believe until one is made alive by God. No spiritually dead person ever believed first and then became spiritually alive. @JonC, @Sovereign Grace and myself have all come to agreement on this issue. Why do you insist on your willful choice coming before your spirit is made alive in Christ?
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