The use of Nekros in Ephesians 2:1

[MennoSota]

Scripture tells us that the spiritually dead can do quite a bit. They do evil deeds, they reject the Light, they walk in darkness, they consider the gospel message and determine it is foolishness, etc. I would look up those verses....but it is better to teach a man to fish.

We do not make ourselves "spiritually alive". I'm not sure where you even got that notion. God draws men to Himself. Again, my point was not that salvation is a work of man but that the use of a physical corpse to describe the attributes of being spiritually dead is both foolish and unbiblical. It is derived from distilling Scripture down to a few fragmented doctrines and then building theology upon those fragments. Scripture defines spiritual death for us, and as far as I know God did not ask our advise on a better way to put it.


We are dead if we are not in Christ and we are alive in Christ.


There is no point where Scripture says that we are made spiritually alive so that we can be saved (spiritual life is synonymous with being "in Christ, or being saved.

It is not that a spiritually dead man cannot hear because corpses cannot hear (hearing is an analogy as we don't have literal spiritual ears with little spirit ear drums that communicate to our tiny spiritual brains). What you are doing is building upon analogy. Just drop the analogy and discuss spiritual death.

So all humanity is physically dead as well as spiritually dead?

Do you believe there is only one part to a human?
Would you say there is no soul and no spirit? Or is the soul and spirit welded to the body as one?

 

[JonC]

So all humanity is physically dead as well as spiritually dead?

Do you believe there is only one part to a human?
Would you say there is no soul and no spirit? Or is the soul and spirit welded to the body as one?

If you interpret my reply to mean that I believe humanity is both physically and spiritually dead then you have my apologies as I obviously lack the skills to teach another to fish. That said, I refuse to work fast food. I did that when I was much younger.

If I listen to Scripture, to be alive is to be in Christ. It is to walk in the Light. Jesus is that Life, and Light. If I listen to you, spiritually dead sinners are made alive and then these spiritually alive sinners are saved so that they believe. I think I'll choose Scripture here, no offense intended.

 

[HankD]

Why would it need to be. The context of Ephesians 1 as it connects to Ephesians 2 provides this understanding.

It's inconclusive, it might pertain to the soul-psuche or perhaps even the body-soma pertaining to the resurrection of the body being "quickened-made alive" (which in reality was supplied by the KJV translators and is not in the raw text.).

Human logic which is bound to the context dictates/points to pneuma and is probably correct but we have nothing conclusive pertaining to pneuma in that sentence of which Ephesians 2:1 is comprised.

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

If you interpret my reply to mean that I believe humanity is both physically and spiritually dead then you have my apologies as I obviously lack the skills to teach another to fish. That said, I refuse to work fast food. I did that when I was much younger.

If I listen to Scripture, to be alive is to be in Christ. It is to walk in the Light. Jesus is that Life, and Light. If I listen to you, spiritually dead sinners are made alive and then these spiritually alive sinners are saved so that they believe. I think I'll choose Scripture here, no offense intended.

Only the elect are in Christ. Only the elect can walk in the Light. Jesus is our Life. Apart from Jesus we are dead.

Spiritually dead are made alive. That is salvation. Our reaction of belief is a gift of God when he graciously saves us.

Romans 8 gives us the progression.

Romans 8:29-30
[29]For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
[30]And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

 

[JonC]

Only the elect are in Christ. Only the elect can walk in the Light. Jesus is our Life. Apart from Jesus we are dead.

Spiritually dead are made alive. That is salvation. Our reaction of belief is a gift of God when he graciously saves us.

Romans 8 gives us the progression.

Romans 8:29-30
[29]For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
[30]And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

I have never argued otherwise. This entire thread concerned a misuse of "spiritually dead" by those who make the flawed analogy by applying the physical to the spiritual and suggesting that corpses don't hear or reach out for safety.

 

[MennoSota]

I have never argued otherwise. This entire thread concerned a misuse of "spiritually dead" by those who make the flawed analogy by applying the physical to the spiritual and suggesting that corpses don't hear or reach out for safety.

Do corpses hear or reach out for safety?

I don't recall anyone saying they do.

 

[JonC]

Do corpses hear or reach out for safety?

I don't recall anyone saying they do.

It was on the other thread. SovereignGrace took it to this one (I suppose to keep the other on topic). My objection was those who speak of the spiritually dead as if they were corpses.

 

[JonShaff]

It was on the other thread. SovereignGrace took it to this one (I suppose to keep the other on topic). My objection was those who speak of the spiritually dead as if they were corpses.

I have a feeling they know exactly what we are talking about, but pride is holding them back from saying, "you're right, we should not speak in terms of a physically dead corpse when characterizing a spiritually dead person. " let us let Scripture speak on what a spiritually dead person can and cannot do.

 

[JonShaff]

Do corpses hear or reach out for safety?

I don't recall anyone saying they do.

They don't sin either. Or breath or do much of anything.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I think you misunderstand my objection.

My objection is not that we were dead in our sins and trespass, objects of God's wrath. It was the idea that the spiritual dead cannot do such and such because corpses (physical corpses) cannot do such and such. My objection is not that we are alive in Christ (as the passage states) but that we must be made alive so that we can be saved (so that we can be in Christ), which is foreign to the passage.

To explain even more - a dead man cannot reach for a life preserver, it is true. But you are confusing physical and spiritual death. A dead man can also not sin, not rebel from God as he is physically dead. So what? We are talking of spiritual life and spiritual death - which is defined in Scripture.

Okay, what can a spiritually dead man do when hearing the gospel in an unregenerate state? Other than reject it, can they act positively to it in that spiritually dead, unregenerate condition?

 

[MennoSota]

They don't sin either. Or breath or do much of anything.

Right.

So is Ephesians 2:1 referring to a physical corpse?

 

[InTheLight]

(People in this thread and another thread) have been comparing a physically dead person with a Spiritually dead person and ascribing similarities..."A corpse cannot reach for a life preserver". A dead man "cannot hear". A Dead man "Cannot walk", etc. TRUE, a physically dead person cannot do any of those things. You are adding to the intended meaning of the text when you say things like "Dead men cannot reach for a life preserver."

An unregenerate woman asked her Calvinist pastor a question:

"Pastor if I'm spiritually dead like a corpse, unable to do anything spiritual, and I repent and become born again will I be able to play the piano in church?"

"I don't see why not", the pastor answered.

"Oh goodie," she replied, "because I can't play it now."

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[MennoSota]

What person was created spiritually alive?
Answer: Adam
Through whom did sin enter the world?
Answer: Adam
Sin entering the world brought what?
Answer: death
Therefore through Adam all died.

We are born spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins. This is biblical. We don't have to willfully choose to sin to be found guilty. We are guilty by virtue of Adam.
Only God can give us the spiritual life lost at the fall. Only God can make us alive in Christ Jesus.

Jon your idea that spiritually dead men can't sin is moot. The one spiritually alive man brought the death penalty upon all of us. We are dead in our trespasses and sins.

But God...

 

[JonC]

Okay, what can a spiritually dead man do when hearing the gospel in an unregenerate state? Other than reject it, can they act positively to it in that spiritually dead, unregenerate condition?

He can cognitively believe the gospel, perhaps even accept the gospel on his own terms only to hear one day those fearful words "I never knew you." Or he could understand the gospel cognitively and dismiss it as foolishness.

In fact, apart from God, there is plenty he can do with the gospel. The only thing he will not do apart from God is truly believe.

 

[HankD]

He can cognitively believe the gospel, perhaps even accept the gospel on his own terms only to hear one day those fearful words "I never knew you." Or he could understand the gospel cognitively and dismiss it as foolishness.

In fact, apart from God, there is plenty he can do with the gospel. The only thing he will not do apart from God is truly believe.

The Mormon Church has as a requirement to salvation that one believes the gospel and is baptized using the Matthew 28 Trinitarian formula.

HankD

 

[JonC]

The Mormon Church has as a requirement to salvation that one believes the gospel and is baptized using the Matthew 28 Trinitarian formula.

HankD

I didn't think of that, but you're right and they are not alone. The gospel message itself can be understood, altered and/or rejected. I think the confusion here is so much seems dependent on a person understanding the contents of the gospel and so little is put on the truly spiritual.

 

[MennoSota]

I didn't think of that, but you're right and they are not alone. The gospel message itself can be understood, altered and/or rejected. I think the confusion here is so much seems dependent on a person understanding the contents of the gospel and so little is put on the truly spiritual.

No unreconciled person can ever comprehend the gospel. The person's dead spiritual condition will never bring about such reconciliation.

Yes, you keep focusing on the dead person rather than the living God.

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[JonC]

No unreconciled person can ever comprehend the gospel. The person's dead spiritual condition will never bring about such reconciliation.

Yes, you keep focusing on the dead person rather than the living God.

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Yet James says even demons believe (what facts to you believe they have wrong?). You put too much faith in the cognitive appreciation of the gospel and too little in true faith. Spiritual death is not for lack of knowledge. It is for an overabundance of self-righteousness and a lack of true faith in Christ.

And again (for the...what....7th time?) no one here is talking about a person's own condition bringing about reconciliation with God. This is an idea you've introduced. People don't come of their own accord. God draws. Do you understand that? The lost will not, apart from God, come to believe (with a saving faith) in Christ, although they may fully understand the words of the gospel itself (they don't understand the spiritual). God has chosen a people (God ALWAYS chooses a people....they don't choose Him except that He has chosen them already).

 

[InTheLight]

No unreconciled person can ever comprehend the gospel. The person's dead spiritual condition will never bring about such reconciliation.

Yes, you keep focusing on the dead person rather than the living God.

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The Gospel reveals God:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Romans 1:16‭-‬17

Unreconciled people can see the invisible qualities of God:

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Romans 1:20

Unreconciled people know evil deserves judgment from God:

Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Romans 1:32






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[HankD]

I didn't think of that, but you're right and they are not alone. The gospel message itself can be understood, altered and/or rejected. I think the confusion here is so much seems dependent on a person understanding the contents of the gospel and so little is put on the truly spiritual.

And their claim to fame is they offer a gospel which has been doctored with works.
If they did not understand the pure gospel how could they have so cleverly corrupted it?

HankD