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The use of Nekros in Ephesians 2:1

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Apr 16, 2017.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Problem: The word Spirit-pneuma is not used in Ephesians 2:1.

    HankD
     
    #41 HankD, Apr 17, 2017
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Can you provide chapter and verse for this statement? :)

    HankD
     
    #42 HankD, Apr 17, 2017
  3. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Why would it need to be. The context of Ephesians 1 as it connects to Ephesians 2 provides this understanding.
     
    #43 MennoSota, Apr 17, 2017
  4. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I don't know, Maybe because you are adding Characteristics to the spirit that the scriptures do not speak on.
     
    #44 JonShaff, Apr 17, 2017
  5. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I'm going to say my communication skills are failing me (although JonC seems to be picking up what i'm putting down :) )

    Paul doesn't use an analogy. He states the condition that we are in, Dead to God. *WE* (People in this thread and another thread) have been comparing a physically dead person with a Spiritually dead person and ascribing similarities..."A corpse cannot reach for a life preserver". A dead man "cannot hear". A Dead man "Cannot walk", etc. TRUE, a physically dead person cannot do any of those things. But what can a Spiritually dead person do? What can he not do? You guys invented the analogy AND You guys have taken the analogy too far in that you have not stuck with how the Bible characterizes a SPIRITUALLY dead person.

    I might even go as far as to say Paul wasn't giving an analogy at all, YOU guys are. Paul was relaying spiritual information about what it means to be spiritually dead. You are adding to the intended meaning of the text when you say things like "Dead men cannot reach for a life preserver."

    Sorry..i reposted so i can quote MennoSota's post
     
    #45 JonShaff, Apr 17, 2017
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do sinners have the means to understand the bible and to realize they are in need of saving and Jesus can save them in their own condition?
     
    #46 Yeshua1, Apr 17, 2017
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, he doesn't. Continue through the chapter and you will see the that death is related to being dead in one's trespass, objects of God's wrath. Being made alive is being alive in Christ. A few posts back I provided those verses that followed the one you quoted.
     
    #47 JonC, Apr 17, 2017
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  8. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Many Christians don't even understand the Bible. Is understanding the bible a condition for salvation?

    secondly, Does God reveal to sinners their need for a savior?
     
    #48 JonShaff, Apr 17, 2017
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Excellent point. My initial statement was flawed. Paul is speaking of spiritual death and spiritual life (a reality). Applying to this the idea of a corpse is to reduce spiritual life and death to allegory...corpses that cannot reach for safety.
     
    #49 JonC, Apr 17, 2017
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  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The sinner apart from the life giving Holy Spirit cannot do ANYTHING to save themselves, is that not a definition of being dead?
     
    #50 Yeshua1, Apr 17, 2017
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Holy Spirittakes the scriptures and reveals to the sinner thru that he needs salvation, he canjnt do anything to save themselves, and jesus is the one that saves!
     
    #51 Yeshua1, Apr 17, 2017
  12. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    How so?
     
    #52 MennoSota, Apr 17, 2017
  13. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Where does the text say "Dead to God?" The text says "You were dead in your trespasses and sins."

    How does the Bible characterize a spiritually dead person, in your opinion (scriptural references welcome)?
     
    #53 MennoSota, Apr 17, 2017
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  14. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    And a few posts back I showed you that you are wrong. I explained the connection throughout the passage.

    You seem stuck in a physical dimension.
     
    #54 MennoSota, Apr 17, 2017
  15. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Amen.
     
    #55 JonShaff, Apr 17, 2017
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  16. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    "Dead in trespasses and sins"...you know what i meant (God would only know if you are spiritually dead or alive).

    I already mentioned some...in Context Eph. 2

    We were "Children of Wrath"
    "Enemies of God"
    "Without Hope"
    "Without God"
    "Alienated from the Common Wealth of Israel and the promises"

    -Spiritually dead

    This is all the same Chapter, context.

    Would you like to add some?
     
    #56 JonShaff, Apr 17, 2017
  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    An excerpt from Precept Austin...

    Dead in - "In" is locative of sphere, which indicates the sphere or realm, in which we lived before we were born in (the sphere of) Christ (see in Christ and in Christ Jesus and in Christ). We were not dead because we had committed sin but because we were in the sphere of sin. That's why we committed sin. We were born with the penchant as it were to commit sins. As a fish lives in an aquarium, we were born in the "aquarium" of sin. What does this mean? To reiterate we sin because we are sinners. Stealing does not make us a thief. We steal because we are by nature (from Adam) thieves! Does that hurt your pride?

    When God looks down from heaven, in a sense, the whole world looks like a cemetery to Him. All God sees are spiritually dead people. Above every corpse (both those "walking" as well as those "lying" in the grave) is a three-word epitaph "DEAD IN SIN." The world without Christ always makes me think of the 1968 horror spoof "Night of the Living Dead"! And so Paul begins with the most important point which is man's desperate need for divine grace and mercy. Dead men can't do much in their own strength to create new life in their spirits! If you miss this point, you may miss eternity with God!

    ILLUSTRATION - Some one said to a person dying; "Well, you are in the land of the living yet." "No," said he, "I am in the land of the dying yet, but I am going to the land of the living; they live there and never die." This is the land of sin and death and tears, but up yonder they never die. It is perpetual life; it is unceasing joy. (D L Moody in his great little book Heaven)

    Dead (3498) (nekros from which we get English "necropsy") denotes the body derived of life, and refers literally to the physical condition of being deceased. As used here in Ephesians, figuratively "dead" refers to the spiritual condition of those who are unable to attain to the life of faith in and of themselves. Lost men are spiritually, eternally dead, not merely weakened, incapacitated, disabled, or sick. Spiritual death is the state of separation from God and His life. Death itself is a separation, whether physical, the separation of the person from his body, or spiritual, the separation of the person from God. Two other marks of a dead person are corruption and impotence, both relevant to the spiritual condition of unregenerate men and women.
     
    #57 SovereignGrace, Apr 17, 2017
  18. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Here's the passage. Are you saying that Paul is making an analogy? Is a man's spirit dead or alive outside of Christ?

    Ephesians 1:18-23
    [18]I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called—his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance.
    [19]I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power
    [20]that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms.
    [21]Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come.
    [22]God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church.
    [23]And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.
    Ephesians 2:1-10
    [1]Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
    [2]You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
    [3]All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
    [4]But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,
    [5]that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)
    [6]For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
    [7]So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
    [8]God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
    [9]Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
    [10]For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
     
    #58 MennoSota, Apr 17, 2017
  19. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Zero analogy, You made the analogy by saying "A dead man cannot reach for a life preserver."(You compared spiritually dead and physically dead) Paul is talking reality. You are not.
     
    #59 JonShaff, Apr 17, 2017
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think you misunderstand my objection.

    My objection is not that we were dead in our sins and trespass, objects of God's wrath. It was the idea that the spiritual dead cannot do such and such because corpses (physical corpses) cannot do such and such. My objection is not that we are alive in Christ (as the passage states) but that we must be made alive so that we can be saved (so that we can be in Christ), which is foreign to the passage.

    To explain even more - a dead man cannot reach for a life preserver, it is true. But you are confusing physical and spiritual death. A dead man can also not sin, not rebel from God as he is physically dead. So what? We are talking of spiritual life and spiritual death - which is defined in Scripture.
     
    #60 JonC, Apr 17, 2017
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