Rev. Lowery
New Member
john p thats exactly what i was hoping i would get for answers but i am looking for contrary points seems ppl that post here dont see these things the way we do.
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The weak foundation of free will
- Thread starter npetreley
- Start date
No man can come unless drawn...BUT "...I will draw ALL MEN unto Me."
I am not under the impression this verse is dealing with salvation. Paul is speaking to Christians. He is telling them that the "natural man" (separate from the "new" man which we become when justified) does not know the "things" of God. We still possess the "natural man" within us as sin nature. The "new man" DOES understand the things of God, as we have the "mind of Christ".
You jump from "mind" to "those people". WE are "those people" if WE set our minds on the things of the flesh! This is not separating people, but natures.
You say "the faith". What is that? The Bible never separates different kinds of faith. ALL MEN are born with the ability to have faith in something. You sit in a chair, you have faith the chair will support your weight. When you go through a green light, you have faith that those at the red light will stop. When my son asks me to spin him by his legs, he has faith (even at a very young age) that I will not drop him. Faith is not a gift for a select group. God has given every man faith to use.
Timtoolman
New Member
It seems quite clear that it is more important for some to have an answer just to have an answer. Even if it does not refute anything or make sense. And I am not going to mention johnp or clavbaptist name either. 
Let me ask you something. If I were to say "I'm going to make johnp mad" and then I kicked you in the shin...was my statement truthful? I believe this was the context God used this statement in. He "hardened Pharaoh's heart" by using his own stubborness with the continued persistance of sending Moses to say "let My people go", by plagues, and by the fact that those whom he enslaved were "God's people" and God's desire to bless and free them.
Hello webdog.
Great, we are back to sniping, those long posts take ages.
Why not have a shot at Rev. Lowery's questions? Whether you like my answers or not I at least gave an answer but I find the question better addressed by you and Tim and Me4Him et al.
john.
Great, we are back to sniping, those long posts take ages.
I do?
Why not have a shot at Rev. Lowery's questions? Whether you like my answers or not I at least gave an answer but I find the question better addressed by you and Tim and Me4Him et al.
No. You made no statement.
Tim tried it on the other day. He was saying that when God's words meet a stubbon man the word harden him. (That right Tim? A bit paraphrased but that is how I understood it.) The scripture does not say that God's word hardened him but, I will harden him so that he does not let my people go. Ex 4:21. Is that not so? You change scripture.
We have nothing of our own.
john.
Timtoolman
New Member
Tim tried it on the other day. He was saying that when God's words meet a stubbon man the word harden him. (That right Tim? A bit paraphrased but that is how I understood it.) The scripture does not say that God's word hardened him but, I will harden him so that he does not let my people go. Ex 4:21. Is that not so? You change scripture.
Yep, got it right Johnp. But I am not seperating God from His word. And it works Johnp. Or we go your way. God again tells man what to do then forces him (sinner) to disobey Him (God).
quote:
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God has given every man faith to use.
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We have nothing of our own.
john.
Just wondering if I may, what kind of an answer this is. Someone says "God has given every man faith to use." Are you agreeing with him from your statement of "we have nothing of our own." Which, if you have been paying attention at all from all these threads on calvinism and non. That both side agree it is all of God.
Yep, got it right Johnp. But I am not seperating God from His word. And it works Johnp. Or we go your way. God again tells man what to do then forces him (sinner) to disobey Him (God).
quote:
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God has given every man faith to use.
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We have nothing of our own.
john.
Just wondering if I may, what kind of an answer this is. Someone says "God has given every man faith to use." Are you agreeing with him from your statement of "we have nothing of our own." Which, if you have been paying attention at all from all these threads on calvinism and non. That both side agree it is all of God.
Yes.
Yes.
"Can" you? Yes. Will God allow it "all I want"? No.
God never "looks over" sin. If you are a believer, you are fogiven as your sin has been put on Christ. God will still chasten His children who sin.
We are commanded to (preach, that is). Oh wait...just because we are commanded to does not make it so. Us on the BB must be the ones who can preach, argue and debate. Argue and debate is a result of *gasp* free will.
Amen
Either permissible or declarative, yes.
Hello Tim.
'Forces' is not the right word. God drives us all the time. We are what we are because of Him. He controls everything you do and say, even what you are saying now. I couldn't care less about your opinion but where is your scripture? I cannot see any.
Rom 3:10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
RO 3:11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
RO 3:12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
RO 3:13 "Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
RO 3:14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
RO 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
RO 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
RO 3:17 and the way of peace they do not know."
RO 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
john.
Giving encouragement and succor to the enemy is cool.
What works, seperating the word from God? Or we go my way? God again tells man what to do then forces him (sinner) to disobey Him (God).
'Forces' is not the right word. God drives us all the time. We are what we are because of Him. He controls everything you do and say, even what you are saying now. I couldn't care less about your opinion but where is your scripture? I cannot see any.
I have faith but it was a gift it is not originating in me but my God lives there.
Rom 3:10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
RO 3:11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
RO 3:12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
RO 3:13 "Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
RO 3:14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
RO 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
RO 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
RO 3:17 and the way of peace they do not know."
RO 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
john.
Hello webdog.
I answered no. And again I say, you said no such thing.
Where's my dodging? Where's there is a stupid question a stupid answer is an option.
john.
Fancy asking a supralapsarian Calvinist if he believes Mary to be the Queen of Heaven? HaHa! If you are intent on fishing trips you should go where the fish are.
I didn't see it as a question it looks like a startled reply. In your dreams. Mary was a peasant girl made good by God. You see 'I do?' is a question which you failed to answer. If I gave the impression that I do then show me where the impression springs from please.
Your question: Let me ask you something. If I were to say "I'm going to make johnp mad" and then I kicked you in the shin...was my statement truthful?
I answered no. And again I say, you said no such thing.
Where's my dodging? Where's there is a stupid question a stupid answer is an option.
john.
JOB 2:10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
HaHa! No.
You asked, 'was my statement truthful? I replied you made no statement. You proposed a course of action to elicit a response. It is an hypothesis. I kick john and john will attempt to cave my head in. Is the hypothesis correct? No. ...would my statement be truthful?
You can't say 'was' until after the event and don't judge me by the way you would behave please.
What we talking about my leg for anyway?
I didn't see it as a question it looks like a startled reply.
What for, to show a startled surprise?
How's me reading?? That is a question mark and it is for giving the reader a notion that a question has been asked. Might be where we are misunderstanding each other. The next time you see one of those on one of my posts then I mean it as a question.
?!? Is what I took to be a startled expression and a rhetorical question. So ?!? is a question?!? You have revised the jots and tittles as well?!? You should have told me.
So you agree with the catholics that Mary is the "queen of heaven"?!?
john.
Tom Butler
New Member
In John 12 Jesus is talking with a crowd, and urged them in v.36 "put your trust in the light,"
speaking of Himself.
Then John says that despite all the miracles Jesus had done, they wouldn't believe. He said their unbelief was a fulfilment of Isaiah 53:1: "...who has believed our report," meaning, "Lord, nobody believes me."
Then John explains why they did not believe. They couldn't believe. John then quoted Isaiah 6:10. "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts so they can neither see with their eyes nor understand with their hearts."
Remember that when God told Isaiah to prophesy, he essentially told him, "Isaiah you prophesy, but they won't listen. They won't listen because I've blinded their spiritual eyes, dulled their spiritual hearing, and deadened their hearts." God promised Isaiah exactly zero converts.
Back to John 12. Even though John says they didn't believe because they couldn't, some of the Jewish leaders did believe.
We know why some didn't. Why did some believe? Sure, they kept it secret, but the question remains--why some didn't (couldn't) and come did (could)? The answer, to me, seems clear.
Tom B.
speaking of Himself.
Then John says that despite all the miracles Jesus had done, they wouldn't believe. He said their unbelief was a fulfilment of Isaiah 53:1: "...who has believed our report," meaning, "Lord, nobody believes me."
Then John explains why they did not believe. They couldn't believe. John then quoted Isaiah 6:10. "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts so they can neither see with their eyes nor understand with their hearts."
Remember that when God told Isaiah to prophesy, he essentially told him, "Isaiah you prophesy, but they won't listen. They won't listen because I've blinded their spiritual eyes, dulled their spiritual hearing, and deadened their hearts." God promised Isaiah exactly zero converts.
Back to John 12. Even though John says they didn't believe because they couldn't, some of the Jewish leaders did believe.
We know why some didn't. Why did some believe? Sure, they kept it secret, but the question remains--why some didn't (couldn't) and come did (could)? The answer, to me, seems clear.
Tom B.
Timtoolman
New Member
Here is another case of honest debate going out the window. See we go in circles because we don't listen to what the person is saying when we are all tied up in a religious dogma (calvinism). Tom over and over it has been stated that in each case of hardening or blinding the people FIRST rejected the Christ. NOw lets not foret as a sidebar verse 32And If I (the Christ) be lifted up I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO MYSELF. Now you would have Jesus contradict Himself in no less then a few verses later!
Aaaahh but at last if we read the context it is still as we say. Verse 34 they already had heard of the savior from the law, or knew of Him. That is not all verse 37 say that although Jesus had preformed many signs yet hey were not believing.
Now this passage again brings up the fact that unregnerate man, according to calvinism cannot respond yet we have Jesus blinding them, hardening thier hearts....verse 40 .....lest they see with their eyes, and percieve with thier heart and be CONVERTED, and I heal them. Also notice that those spiritually dead are considered sick also, not dead.
So much slaying of calvinistic doctrine in this chapter why would any calvinist choose it?!
Aaaahh but at last if we read the context it is still as we say. Verse 34 they already had heard of the savior from the law, or knew of Him. That is not all verse 37 say that although Jesus had preformed many signs yet hey were not believing.
Now this passage again brings up the fact that unregnerate man, according to calvinism cannot respond yet we have Jesus blinding them, hardening thier hearts....verse 40 .....lest they see with their eyes, and percieve with thier heart and be CONVERTED, and I heal them. Also notice that those spiritually dead are considered sick also, not dead.
So much slaying of calvinistic doctrine in this chapter why would any calvinist choose it?!
This below Tim is opinion.
Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Dt 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
john.
This below Tim is scripture, you can find it in a book called the bible.
Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Dt 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
john.
Timtoolman
New Member
JohnP:
This below Tim is scripture, you can find it in a book called the bible.
LOL, alright your found the book. Now dumped the calvinist book and use your new found book!
Just playing back at you Johnp. At times I laughed whole heartly at you, get frustrated at you, mad, or tired of you. But at times even you find a nugget that blesses me.
I have seen Helen's post answering you two or three times for each of those. She has done a wonderful job and I could not improve on it. She be smarter and more articulate then me be.
This below Tim is scripture, you can find it in a book called the bible.
LOL, alright your found the book. Now dumped the calvinist book and use your new found book!
Just playing back at you Johnp. At times I laughed whole heartly at you, get frustrated at you, mad, or tired of you. But at times even you find a nugget that blesses me.
I have seen Helen's post answering you two or three times for each of those. She has done a wonderful job and I could not improve on it. She be smarter and more articulate then me be.