SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
See what I have quoted above from Calvin himself
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The Westminster Confession of Faith Blasphemy
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See what I have quoted above from Calvin himself
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
I think that you can't understand the difference between universal salvation and universal death
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Like most of reformed guys on here
Dave G
Well-Known Member
You have a Bible, SBG, you should be able to figure it out for yourself, should you not my friend?
Even so, I will be glad to show you how I understand it, as well as most of the passage.
Firstly, "what" is in italics, so is not part of the text...
neither are the other italicized words for that matter, so I will place them in [brackets] as I normally do.
Let's look at the passage together:
" As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." (Romans 9:13-26).
To get the fullest context, we really should have started at the top where Paul is developing who the elect are...
But we didn't.
So, we'll just go from here.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
To explain what I see when I read it, I'll do it line by line:
13) The Lord is saying that He loved Jacob and hated Esau. I take this at face value.
14) The question is asked, "What shall we say then?" pertaining to what has come before, in verses 1-13. The question is then asked, "( is there ) unrighteousness with God?" No.
15) For God said to Moses ( in Exodus 33:19 ), "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
16) So then not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy. What is? See above..."His mercy and compassion". It is His to give or to withhold.
17) For the Scriptures say to Pharoah ( Exodus 9:16 ), "even for this same purpose have I raised you up ( gave Pharoah a kingdom and power ), that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."
18) Therefore has He mercy on whom He will, and whom He will He hardens their hearts...just as Exodus declared in many places.
19) You will then say to me ( Paul speaking ), "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20) No, but oh man, who are you to reply against God? Shall the thing formed ( the creation ) say to Him that formed ( the Creator ), "Why have you made me like this?"
21) The example is given....Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22) If God, willing to show wrath and to make His power known ( which He is, see Romans 1:18, 1 Thessalonians 1:7-9, Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 19:17-21, Revelation 20:7-15 and many others ), endured ( stated in the past tense, because what God does or purposes comes to pass unfailingly ) with much patience the vessels of wrath that were fitted to destruction ( the lost, or "non-elect" / them that perish in 1 Corinthians 1:18 )...
23) and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared to glory. Who are those vessels of mercy?
24) Us ( the believers that Paul is addressing ), whom He has "called", His beloved elect ( see Romans 8:28-39 )....not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.
25) As He said in Hosea ( Hosea 1:10 ), "I will call them my people which were not my people...and her beloved which was not beloved."
26) and it shall come to pass...in the place where it was said to them, "You are not my people", there shall they be called the children of the living God.
That is what I see the whole chapter being about, SBG...
God's mercy and compassion on His children ( see Romans 9:6-8 ), the vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory;
Not just Jews, but Gentiles as well.
In fact, the entire letter was written to believers... and in no way was written to, or for, unbelievers;
Because per John 8:43-47 and John 10:25-27, unbelievers ( those who are not of God and are not Christ's sheep ) wouldn't believe what is written anyway.
To answer your question:
God endures with much patience the vessels of wrath, fitted to destruction, for the sake of the vessels of mercy.
As other passages put it, He waits for the precious fruit of the earth ( James 5:7 )...His people out of every tongue ( language ), tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ).
13) The Lord is saying that He loved Jacob and hated Esau. I take this at face value.
14) The question is asked, "What shall we say then?" pertaining to what has come before, in verses 1-13. The question is then asked, "( is there ) unrighteousness with God?" No.
15) For God said to Moses ( in Exodus 33:19 ), "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
16) So then not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy. What is? See above..."His mercy and compassion". It is His to give or to withhold.
17) For the Scriptures say to Pharoah ( Exodus 9:16 ), "even for this same purpose have I raised you up ( gave Pharoah a kingdom and power ), that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."
18) Therefore has He mercy on whom He will, and whom He will He hardens their hearts...just as Exodus declared in many places.
19) You will then say to me ( Paul speaking ), "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20) No, but oh man, who are you to reply against God? Shall the thing formed ( the creation ) say to Him that formed ( the Creator ), "Why have you made me like this?"
21) The example is given....Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22) If God, willing to show wrath and to make His power known ( which He is, see Romans 1:18, 1 Thessalonians 1:7-9, Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 19:17-21, Revelation 20:7-15 and many others ), endured ( stated in the past tense, because what God does or purposes comes to pass unfailingly ) with much patience the vessels of wrath that were fitted to destruction ( the lost, or "non-elect" / them that perish in 1 Corinthians 1:18 )...
23) and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared to glory. Who are those vessels of mercy?
24) Us ( the believers that Paul is addressing ), whom He has "called", His beloved elect ( see Romans 8:28-39 )....not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.
25) As He said in Hosea ( Hosea 1:10 ), "I will call them my people which were not my people...and her beloved which was not beloved."
26) and it shall come to pass...in the place where it was said to them, "You are not my people", there shall they be called the children of the living God.
That is what I see the whole chapter being about, SBG...
God's mercy and compassion on His children ( see Romans 9:6-8 ), the vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory;
Not just Jews, but Gentiles as well.
In fact, the entire letter was written to believers... and in no way was written to, or for, unbelievers;
Because per John 8:43-47 and John 10:25-27, unbelievers ( those who are not of God and are not Christ's sheep ) wouldn't believe what is written anyway.
To answer your question:
God endures with much patience the vessels of wrath, fitted to destruction, for the sake of the vessels of mercy.
As other passages put it, He waits for the precious fruit of the earth ( James 5:7 )...His people out of every tongue ( language ), tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ).
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Didn't you start the thread "The Bible Way of Salvation". I thought that was your first point.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Um, we are talking about what Calvin did or did not say.
Is the closing of a thread automatic once a time limit hour is set, or do the “in charge folks” have to manually put up the “closed” sign at the door?
It's manually done. That's why I use the wording "sometime after" in my warnings. Please note when a thread is closed unless clearly stated in the closing notice, there is nothing keeping members from starting a new thread on the same topic. If they feel there are still matters to be discussed.
Thanks, I was just wondering about the mechanics of the process. You folks do good work.
The only thing I would add is that we usually closed at about 130 posts - or when we see that 130 has passed!
In addition -to restarting a thread - nothing wrong with linking the old one - unless as Squire stated - to not restart it. --- Often I will state in the final thread - "feel free to start a new thread on this subject" -- If I dont mention that -it is still fine to restart a new thread.
fate????? No such thing ,lol
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well if Sproul wants to use ordain in his comment then we should know what the dictionary says it means. If he did not mean that then perhaps he should have used a different word. But since he is a Calvinist we could just go with their meaning such as, have decided whatever is going to happen, does that work better for you?
my friend....I believe you have it totally wrong.
fate,fatalism, is not the biblical teaching.
In the Bible we have the living God in perfect holy wisdom being in complete control ..that is...nothing can happen outside of His control.
Not one molecule is unaccounted for.
God cannot sin.
God uses even the sinful acts of wicked men for His purposes, without causing them to sin.
This thread is closed.
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