The Westminster Confession of Faith Blasphemy

[Dave G]

I must admit that I am shocked that they would say such a thing but then when it is pointed out to them they defend it so what can I say.

Having studied the Bible for as long as I have and having believed it these many years, I can tell you that I am not shocked by what they had to say.
Again, I agree with most of it, at least in principle.

However, having only read most of what is written in the confessions in question, I cannot say that I am in full agreement with everything that is written in those confessions.

What I find so strange is that for the Calvinist who thinks they are part of the elect then God condemning the vast majority of mankind is OK.

That's because His word says that He condemns the vast majority of mankind, while saving a remnant out of every tongue, tribe and nation.
I'm simply agreeing with the words on the page, my friend.

But the reality is that all those Calvinists just have to hope that they are part of the elect, remember you did not have faith in Christ Jesus it had to be given to you.

I cannot speak for any of the so-called "Calvinists" that you may be referring to, but I know that I'm saved, and I will be at His right hand at the Judgement...
And it wasn't my choice to be there.

Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace

These have to be the most soul crushing doctrines that have ever been put forward. God unconditionally chooses to save some, but not all, Christ died only for the elect that God unconditionally chooses to save, and God gives irresistible grace to the fortunate elect.

Those have to be the most humbling, man-abasing doctrines that I have ever come to know and believe, from His word.

They succeed in doing nothing but reminding me of what I would be outside of His grace and mercy towards me.
They tell me that I am who I was made to be by the Lord, and that He has created me to have an everlasting relationship with Him and His Son...

And I will do so with others of the "whosoever believeth", from the heart.

 

[Dave G]

The heart of the issue is the character of God.

I agree.
But to me, the heart of the issue is, "is the Lord the God of the Bible in its entirety, or is He the God of only the New Testament?"

Is he truly a God of love who is perfectly good?

Yes, He is.

You cannot claim this with any plausibility if you believe God determines people to damnation, people He could just as easily determine to salvation.

Yes I can, because His word says so in 1 John 4.

He could determine all persons FREELY to accept the Gospel (as Calvinists define freedom) but choose not to.

Hew could, but He didn't.
That information is found in places like Romans 9 and many others.

What He did was inform us of our own desperate condition and what we as believers were before He called us out of the darkness and into the light of His word and His Son's work for us, on the cross.

God is more glorified by unconditionally choosing to save some and damning others than He would be by determining all to accept salvation.

I didn't set things up like that...He did.
Since that is the way He decided to do it, then I conclude that it brings Him glory to do it, because His word says that He will have glory and praise from men.

 

[Dave G]

Such claims make a shambles of the claim that God is love.

I disagree, because I see that God is still loving to His people, just as 1 John ( and the rest of His word ) tells me.
It makes no shambles out of the Scriptures to declare the entire counsel of His word ( such as Romans 1:18-32, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and most of the book of Revelation, for example ), rather than seeing just one side of Him....His love.

Concentrating on His love at the expense of His holiness and wrath, for example, gives me a very skewed view of the God of Abraham...
Because His love for me is what saved me from His eternal wrath in the Lake of Fire.

As I have said a number of times, there is nothing in Calvinism that would make me think it is the gospel or puts forward a true picture of God.

I understand why you say that, and admittedly it makes me very sad.
But again, I see that this has nothing to do with John Calvin or his teachings...this has everything to do with the Scriptures and what they say.

I think many of those that hold to Calvinism have a true faith in Christ Jesus but they are mislead by the Calvinist theology.

If I've not stated this before, I never came to this through men...I came to it through my own private studies.
If I'm misled by anything, it's completely independent of John Calvin or Augustine or anyone else's teachings.

I'll make this my final reply to you in this thread.


May God bless you as always.

 

[SavedByGrace]

And notice he is talking about PEOPLE GROUPS. Jews/Gentiles.

Keep on believing your unbiblical stuff

 

[DaveXR650]

But what you believe makes God unjust and actually sending them to hell. I thought that reformed teaching is that sinners do not have a free will

Nope. We have a free will. Not an autonomous will. Everything we do is based on some inclination. When it comes to sin, the reformers taught that we tend to go in that direction by our own choice. Baptists and Methodists teach that too so I don't know why this offends you so much. You, like all haters of Calvinism still have in your mind a scenario where someone comes to Christ and they are told "sorry, you ain't elect". It's not like that.

 

[Silverhair]

I have no trouble reading the text, I assure you.

No they do not, but I do understand why you would see it that way.

Perhaps studying the Psalms and Proverbs, as well as the rest of the Old Testament, and paying careful attention to the language of what the Lord's prophets had to say, would go a long way towards understanding why those who formulated those confessions, believed as they did.
My hope is that you do.

Since I am in agreement, at least in principle, with much of what is written in those confessions, then to me, I am getting it straight...
and to me, it has occurred to me that you don't understand the God of the Bible and how very terrible He is to His enemies, and how very loving He is to His people.

I don't see anywhere in the statement in question, that they are accusing Him of being the author of sin and wickedness.
But I do see you arriving at that conclusion for yourself.

To me, by not accepting that God does as He wishes in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth as the Scriptures say in the details,
You are concluding that what you call "Calvinism" is making Him to be that.

In other words, as I see it, you're refusing to accept that the Lord is sovereign over the affairs of men;
That He rules the world and His creation as He sees fit.

I read through your comments and as you say you cannot see any problem with what they say. That makes me question how serious you are about searching for the truth. You may think that they are presenting a true picture of the God of the bible but I do not see it that way. They have to try and cover up their bad theology with a bunch of qualifiers.

>>In other words, as I see it, you're refusing to accept that the Lord is sovereign over the affairs of men;
That He rules the world and His creation as He sees fit.<<

Now as I see it you are more willing to follow what the LBCF or WCF says than what the bible says. God is indeed sovereign and He does rule as He see fit but He does not rule as the LBCF or WCF or even your DoG would have Him rule.

We will just continue to disagree on this.

 

[Silverhair]

Nope. We have a free will. Not an autonomous will. Everything we do is based on some inclination. When it comes to sin, the reformers taught that we tend to go in that direction by our own choice. Baptists and Methodists teach that too so I don't know why this offends you so much. You, like all haters of Calvinism still have in your mind a scenario where someone comes to Christ and they are told "sorry, you ain't elect". It's not like that.

Well I think you should take some time and look at what your Calvinist theology says. Your view has God determining all things not just some things so if that is true then even the thoughts and actions are determined by God. So Christ Jesus does not have to tell someone they are not one of the elect as that was decided long before they were even around. Your God condemned them before creation.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You, like all haters of Calvinism still have in your mind a scenario where someone comes to Christ and they are told "sorry, you ain't elect". It's not like that.

either a person is elect, or they are not. sort your theology out!

 

[Dave G]

Augustine and some of the Reformers belived in Double Predestination, do you guys believe this, and is it taught anywhere in the Bible?

Yes, I do, as the Lord per Romans 9 has made vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.
He decides what destiny the "vessel" has, not us.

Whether for His mercy and compassion, or for His wrath in judgment of our willfully comitted sins, He decides who to save and who to damn, and does so in perfect righteousness.

Also, this:

" But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;" ( 2 Peter 2:12-15 ).

False teachers are made to be taken and destroyed.

 

[DaveXR650]

Here Calvin clearly says that Christ’s suffering for “the whole world” is “offered…to ALL”, but the “ALL” of the “human race” do not receive this gift from the Lord. Nothing could be plainer of the Universal Atonement as taught by Calvin.

The universal and genuine offer of the gospel is believed by a lot of Calvinists. They did not believe in the atonement being universal because the atonement once applied leads to actual justification so if the atonement applies to you you are saved. But Christ has died and the offer of salvation is for anyone who believes.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, I do, as the Lord per Romans 9 has made vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.
He decides what destiny the "vessel" has, not us.

Whether for His mercy and compassion, or for His wrath in judgment of our willfully comitted sins, He decides who to save and who to damn, and does so in perfect righteousness.

Also, this:

" But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;" ( 2 Peter 2:12-15 ).

False teachers are made to be taken and destroyed.

I ask you yet again. Explain Romans 9.22

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Romans 9:22

 

[DaveXR650]

Well I think you should take some time and look at what your Calvinist theology says. Your view has God determining all things not just some things so if that is true then even the thoughts and actions are determined by God. So Christ Jesus does not have to tell someone they are not one of the elect as that was decided long before they were even around. Your God condemned them before creation.

Wrong. This is exactly why folks were trying so hard earlier to explain that there is a difference between God allowing something or ordaining something and him actually determining it.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Wrong. This is exactly why folks were trying so hard earlier to explain that there is a difference between God allowing something or ordaining something and him actually determining it.

Did you read what the WCF says as I have quoted in the OP. the word ORDER is very clearly used. The same as ORDAIN

 

[DaveXR650]

I ask you yet again. Explain Romans 9.22

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

This is a hard verse in my opinion but even here notice that God is "enduring with much patience". These were evil and choosing to be evil over a long period of time. The fact that you and I could have been in that group - and probably should have been in that group should make us thankful and humble rather than judging God's sovereignty.

 

[Yeshua1]

How could they when they denied that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception. Except those like Calvin who was right as seen from his comments on John 3.16

They were not Universalist!

 

[DaveXR650]

Did you read what the WCF says as I have quoted in the OP. the word ORDER is very clearly used. The same as ORDAIN

Like I said, folks were trying to explain. They failed.

 

[Yeshua1]

But what you believe makes God unjust and actually sending them to hell. I thought that reformed teaching is that sinners do not have a free will

They do, its just that their free will is limited and bound by sin natures, as they will not freely choose to receive Jesus to save them if left to themselves!

 

[Yeshua1]

Keep on believing your unbiblical stuff

That is what Calvin taught!

 

[Yeshua1]

This is a hard verse in my opinion but even here notice that God is "enduring with much patience". These were evil and choosing to be evil over a long period of time. The fact that you and I could have been in that group - and probably should have been in that group should make us thankful and humble rather than judging God's sovereignty.

Ask Pharoah and Judas on this!

 

[SavedByGrace]

They do, its just that their free will is limited and bound by sin natures, as they will not freely choose to receive Jesus to save them if left to themselves!

Then it can't be FREE