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Featured The Will of God in the Fall of Man

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rigz, Apr 22, 2016.

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  1. rigz

    rigz Member

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    I am simply asking you to DEFINE your own vocabularies 'permissive will' and 'decretive will'
     
    #61 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  2. rigz

    rigz Member

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    you have yet to DEFINE permissive vs decretive will.
     
    #62 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  3. rigz

    rigz Member

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    you may wish to contrast CREATION with the FALL as far as 'allowing' is concerned.

    Did God 'allow' creation to be?
    Did He decree/ordain creation?

    Now substitute creation with the fall and answer those questions
     
    #63 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  4. rigz

    rigz Member

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    you are overusing vocabularies you shy off from defining, and this makes it difficult if not impossible to engage you
     
    #64 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  5. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Oh but I did...

    --Permissive will=Allows sin to be part of His plan...decretive will. God allowed(permissive) Adam to sin to bring Christ as the Redeemer of His chosen ppl.
    --Decretive will=God uses unregenerate ppl to crucify our Lord to propitiate God, to appease His wrath, so that He can justify the ungodly. To shed His blood to atone for...blot out the sins of those He came to die in their stead for.

    Permissive will...that which God has allowed to come about
    Decretive will...that which he decrees, He actively brings about

    I am not dogmatic about Him having two wills at work in His plan, but, as of now, that is where I am.

    I think it was Piper who said permissive will is like God stepping aside and doing nothing to stop it, whereas, decretive will is Him pushing His will to accomplish it.
     
    #65 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I have been defining these two for you, I guess I am just poorly explaining them. Sorry. Forgive me. :(
     
    #66 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What I mean by within or outside of God's Providence is in accord or in opposition to God's overall plan for creation as an expression of and purpose for His glory. When you ask whether or not God "wanted" Adam to eat the fruit, I think that we may be approaching anthropomorphic language. Was the Fall by design? Yes, of course it was. Did God desire that men sin? No, of course not. Did God cause men to sin against His own will? No, of course not. You see, we cannot go down the questions until we first determine the reason or purpose for Creation. My answer is the glorification of God. From there, was the Fall a part of God's plan? To answer that all we need to do is ask if God is glorified through redemption in a manner not possible without the Fall. My answer is yes. We have to decide whether our view will have God or man at its center. The questions and answers depend on how we address that issue.
     
    #67 JonC, Apr 22, 2016
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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    It is not quite the same but it is good
     
    #68 Iconoclast, Apr 22, 2016
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  9. rigz

    rigz Member

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    You know where you lose me is because none of your definitions/distinctions can answer the young man in the OP.

    Did God will that Adam eat of the fruit He expressly forbade himfrom eating?
     
    #69 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  10. rigz

    rigz Member

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    Can you smell your own contradiction or should I lay it bare for you?
    If the Fall was by Design, who designed it? Man or God? God of course!

    So God DESIGNS something He does not DESIRE:rolleyes:
    What's more, He is not RESPONSIBLE for His DESIGN
     
    #70 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  11. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    No. He had an ability to either chose to eat it or not. He chose foolishly.

    Yet, if they had not choosen to do this, then you or I would not be here. They did not even know they were naked. They had no desire to procreate in their upright state, in my opinion. So, then what? No cross. No glory for God in the redemption of man. Remember, God made man for His glory, to praise Him. Ppl not saved from sin do not praise Him.
     
    #71 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  12. rigz

    rigz Member

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    Thank you for trying. I believe God's Will is no different from man's will, or any will for that matter. Will is not an esoteric mystical thing; it simply is INTENT,PURPOSE...

    If you intend to visit Mars, that's your will. So when God commands Adam not to eat of that particular fruit, His Will is exactly that. When He commands us to worship no other God, His will is that we have no other God. When He commands us to love our neighbors as ourselves, this is His Will.

    Now, let's go back to Eden. God commands Adam not to eat the forbidden fruit. What is His will, that Adam eat or not eat the fruit?
     
    #72 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  13. rigz

    rigz Member

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    I love that tale of 'glory in the redemption of man' but before I get to that...

    What is your point?
    God's will is that Adam may not eat while at the same time He wills that he must eat/fall and thereby all men may sin and fall short of His glory so He may be glorified in saving a few of those who fell?

    Back to the 'glory on redemption' narrative...
    Is God in any way glorified in damnation of sinners eternally in hell as much as He is glorified in saving the sinners?
     
    #73 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    This is an interesting lively discussion and I have a question and this is purely speculation if this order of events did not take place would Adam have eaten of the forbidden fruit?... The remedy was already in place!... Brother Glen

    Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

    3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
     
    #74 tyndale1946, Apr 22, 2016
  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    You're wrong here, in my opinion, mon ami. God is nothing like man. Man is self-deficient, God is self-sufficient. He did not need man to exist, but man needs God to exist. I think the same can be said for His will(s). If He truly wills to do something, it comes to pass. If we will to do something, it may not happen.

    But I may never get there. If God truly wills something to happen, it happens.

    He told him not to eat, and when he did, he would die. He did not strictly forbid him, but warned him of the consequences. I am now beginning to see one will in God, I think. He never forced him to eat of that tree, Adam freely chose and paid dearly for that which he chose.


    Yet, it is due to man's corrupted heart, that which was passed down from the first Adam, that causes them to serve other gods. Left in their unregenerate state, they serve another god, Satan...lower case 'g'.

    And ppl's corrupted hearts cause many to not love their neighbors as themselves. Remember, the bible is written to believers and not unbelievers. See 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Romans 8:7.

    Adam was warned but not strictly forbidden. If God did not desire for him to eat of it, He would not have placed it there to begin with.
     
    #75 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  16. rigz

    rigz Member

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    If He 'truly wills to do...'
    Will transcends actions,activities and events
    Your intent is your will, whether you have the ability to effect it or not does not diminish the fact that that is your will

    This is true but hopelessly irrelevant. God has the ability to do everything, but this is not to mean that 'everything' is God's will

    Exactly what is 'strictly forbid'?
    Does God 'strictly forbid' a man from cheating on his wife, or does He just warn him of the consequences?
    Can one conclude that that God's permissive will for an adulterer is adultery?

    So God DESIRED that Adam eat of the fruit!
    Thank you for your candid admission. But then He goes on and punishes Adam for doing exactly what He desired:)
     
    #76 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I thought you would understand it as a contradiction, but that doesn't make it so. The difference is perspective. If you approach it from a man-centered doctrine then it is a contradiction. But if you can keep to a doctrine focused on God's glory then you may escape that error.

    And, of course, for some of us your argument is obviously one of constructing a strawman. And by "us" I don't mean Calvinists. I mean your objection is proven wrong by common experience.

    I enjoy hunting. Last year I wanted to take a deer. I desired not only the hunt, but also the meat. At the same time I do not desire to cause animals pain. I do not desire to cause death. In one sense I do not desire to kill the deer, but in another I do. One is cruelty and the other is not, but the same action occurs. And there is no contradiction at all (I know, you don't understand and that's alright).


    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530A using Tapatalk
     
    #77 JonC, Apr 22, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2016
  18. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Okay...

    On top of my head? Oh wait, that's the answer to 'Where is my point'? :D
    My point? No fall, no redemption from sin. No redemption from sin, no praise from man in saving them. God made man for His glory. He will get praise from them.

    I don't remember Adam praising God for Him making him, do you? I am going to have to read this again...been a few days since I read the Garden scene. Adam have continual fellowship with God, but I don't think he worshipped Him. I could be wrong, but I don't remember him worshipping God. He may have, but it's not recorded in the bible, iirc.

    God told him he could freely eat of any tree in the Garden. We can read The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.[Genesis 3:15-17] He told he must not eat of it because when he did, he'd die. He was warned of the consequences, but not strictly forbidden.

    Yes. Here's a link to read..

    http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/03/10/god-glorified-in-destruction-of-sinners/

    Also, read Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the hands of an angry God."

    Also remember, those who perish in their sins were God's enemies. God's enemies must be destroyed.
     
    #78 SovereignGrace, Apr 22, 2016
  19. rigz

    rigz Member

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    So it is my fault for calling out your contradictions? Interesting.
    Calling it strawman does not make it so. Some of us can readily and easily see your 'man-centered' vs 'doctrine focused on God's glory' as a strawman. You don't stop at strawmen, you stoop lower and accuse me of bankruptcy of comprehension

    Extremely irrelevant analogy. Your object is hunting and meat. Pain and death are means to these. The ONLY means. By desiring hunting and meat, you desire pain and death for the animal.

    To make more sense, think about you being outraged by the very fact that the animal experiences pain and dies out of the injuries you inflict on it on your way to game meat and hunting thrill (I know, you don't understand)
     
    #79 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2016
  20. rigz

    rigz Member

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    God made man for some purpose that could NEVER be realized in the work He defines as VERY GOOD? Smh

    And because it is not recorded you grab artistic liberty to imagine he didn't ? Arguments from silence are notoriously unreliable.

    And the question was, exactly what is 'strictly forbidden'?
    So, why don't you remain a sinner and glorify God as you are tormented in hell?Laugh
    And why is God angry in sinners who glorify him by being hell fodder?

    Yeah right, God is glorified in their destruction, I wonder why you deny Him glory by running away from your sins. Or is God better glorified in saving you from sins?

    See how nonsensical you make God and salvation?
    Salvation glorifies Him just as much as damnation. Man ought to be indifferent to either seeing both glorify God:rolleyes:
     
    #80 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
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