The Willful Sin of Unbelief

[Van]

The author addresses his kinsmen (Jews) in Israel. Not born again Christians.

It is more likely the author of Hebrews was addressing born anew, and thus holy siblings in Christ.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Yes. Read Acts chapters 21, 22, and 23.

Chapter 21 for some background, then about midway through, the action starts, and note that at the opening verses of chapters 22 and 23, Paul addresses those who are seeking to kill him by calling them brethren. They are fellow Jews, not Christians.

Romans 9

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.

Paul could wish himself lost, if it would save his lost brethren, his kinsmen by the flesh, his fellow Jews.

Paul does refer to how they are kinsmen according to the flesh in Romans 9:3 and so I reckon discernment is needed whenever he uses the term brethren or kinsmen as not according to the flesh.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[ChristB4Us]

The author addresses his kinsmen (Jews) in Israel. Not born again Christians.

I believe you should reconsider that Paul does not always use the term kinsmen nor brethren as only referring to Jews. It depends on the context of the message or the address.

Hebrews 3:1 NASB
Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession: Jesus;

The address is to those holy brothers and sisters or Paul's confession Jesus, and so that makes them born again Christians.

 

[Brightfame52]

The unforgivable sin is the rejection of the gospel!

Did Paul when he was saul reject the Gospel ? Did he reject Christ and His People ? He heard Stephen preach the Gospel and probably many others, was he forgiven ?

 

[MrW]

I believe you should reconsider that Paul does not always use the term kinsmen nor brethren as only referring to Jews. It depends on the context of the message or the address.

Hebrews 3:1 NASB
Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession: Jesus;

The address is to those holy brothers and sisters or Paul's confession Jesus, and so that makes them born again Christians.

You misunderstand me. My point is when Paul called them brethren in the Book of Hebrews, that does not mean they were Christians. Of course he called Christians brethren, but he also called Jews, the nation of Israel, his brethren too, even though they weren’t saved.

 

[Van]

Did Paul when he was saul reject the Gospel ? Did he reject Christ and His People ? He heard Stephen preach the Gospel and probably many others, was he forgiven ?

Good grief, if a person rejects the gospel or does not fully embrace it, does that mean they cannot come to their senses and embrace the gospel subsequently? Of course not, the opportunity for salvation remains until a person's heart is hardened, as soil #1, or a person physically dies.

Salvation 101

 

[Brightfame52]

Good grief, if a person rejects the gospel or does not fully embrace it, does that mean they cannot come to their senses and embrace the gospel subsequently? Of course not, the opportunity for salvation remains until a person's heart is hardened, as soil #1, or a person physically dies.

Salvation 101

Did Paul when he was saul reject the Gospel ?

 

[ChristB4Us]

You misunderstand me. My point is when Paul called them brethren in the Book of Hebrews, that does not mean they were Christians. Of course he called Christians brethren, but he also called Jews, the nation of Israel, his brethren too, even though they weren’t saved.

But the address in Hebrews 3:1-3 can only be towards the Christian believers as the Jews would hardly be addressed as such in that manner if they were remaining as unbelieving Jews, and yet hanging around an assembly of believers that would be reading this epistle from Paul.

 

[MrW]

Once again:
"These falling away are described in the letter as brethren, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God, received the knowledge of the truth, sanctified by the blood of the covenant, the LORD's people...."

Apparently you, like Charlie, think the saved can be lost.

I have already established Paul addressed lost Jews as brethren.

They were partakers of the Holy Spirit nationally, as God’s elect nation out of all nations.

They tasted the good Word of God, but only a taste, for they were (some of them) spitting it back out instead of taking it in.

They received the knowledge of the truth, but denied the truthfulness (some of them; compare Romans 1, where they “…changed the truth of God into a lie.”)

They were sanctified (set apart) by the blood of the covenant but accounted themselves unworthy of eternal life, and rejected it in favor of the Mosaic law.

I believe in eternal salvation.

 

[MrW]

But the address in Hebrews 3:1-3 can only be towards the Christian believers as the Jews would hardly be addressed as such in that manner if they were remaining as unbelieving Jews, and yet hanging around an assembly of believers that would be reading this epistle from Paul.

Sorry, but Paul habitually addressed fellow Jews as brothers, perhaps hoping to make them more amenable to his preaching by his kindness, or simply because he considered all Jews to be brothers, whether saved or lost (I don’t of course mean that he considered all Jews as Christian brothers, just brothers as fellow Israelis).

I worked years back with a Christian friend who called everyone “brother”, saved or lost. I told him lost folks were not his brothers, but he did it anyway.

 

[Brightfame52]

But the address in Hebrews 3:1-3 can only be towards the Christian believers as the Jews would hardly be addressed as such in that manner if they were remaining as unbelieving Jews, and yet hanging around an assembly of believers that would be reading this epistle from Paul.

Not necessarily, there always is tares among the wheat, some are mere professors, stony heart hearers Matt 13:20-21

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

The writer of hebrews is being chartable and addressing the assembly as brethren

 

[kyredneck]

Apparently you, like Charlie, think the saved can be lost.

Apparently you, like 99% of evangelicals, Calvinist or Free Willer, misapply the eternal sense to saved and lost, AND, like 99% of evangelicals, Calvinist or Free Willer, the lesson(s) to be learned in these magnificent types contained in the Exodus Motif.

I have already established Paul addressed lost Jews as brethren.

They were partakers of the Holy Spirit nationally, as God’s elect nation out of all nations.

They tasted the good Word of God, but only a taste, for they were (some of them) spitting it back out instead of taking it in.

They received the knowledge of the truth, but denied the truthfulness (some of them; compare Romans 1, where they “…changed the truth of God into a lie.”)

They were sanctified (set apart) by the blood of the covenant but accounted themselves unworthy of eternal life, and rejected it in favor of the Mosaic law.

I believe in eternal salvation.

You make some good points, but miss some huge, important lessons into the faithfulness of God and the eternal security of His people when you depart from the Exodus storyline when reading Hebrews.

House of bondage = ?

Passover lamb = ?

Wilderness = ?

Land of milk & honey = ?

The Exodus Motif is pregnant with types, these are just a few.

 

[Van]

Did Paul when he was saul reject the Gospel ?

I am sorry, I thought I had responded to this false claim.

No one is saying if you reject or fail to fully embrace the gospel, you are damned forever. A person might reject or not fully commit to the gospel initially, but subsequently "come to their senses" and "rededicate" their lives fully to Christ. Paul springs to mind as one who initially rejected the gospel, and John Mark as one, like the Prodigal Son, rededicated their life to Christ.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Sorry, but Paul habitually addressed fellow Jews as brothers, perhaps hoping to make them more amenable to his preaching by his kindness, or simply because he considered all Jews to be brothers, whether saved or lost (I don’t of course mean that he considered all Jews as Christian brothers, just brothers as fellow Israelis).

I worked years back with a Christian friend who called everyone “brother”, saved or lost. I told him lost folks were not his brothers, but he did it anyway.

But.... when the epistle of Hebrews starts off like this;

Hebrews 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

How then can Paul be addressing Jews that are lost? How can this epistle be sent to the unbelieving Jews and survive to this day?

It cannot.

Therefore you should consider that Paul was writing to former Jews that are then believers in Jesus Christ for what the purpose of the epistle of Hebrews was written for to the edification of those that believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Not necessarily, there always is tares among the wheat, some are mere professors, stony heart hearers Matt 13:20-21

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

The writer of hebrews is being chartable and addressing the assembly as brethren

The assembly of former Jews that believe in Jesus Christ, otherwise the beginning of Hebrews would have that epistle destroyed before they read it any further.

Read how the epistle of Hebrews starts off like this;

Hebrews 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

How then can Paul be addressing Jews that are lost? How can this epistle be sent to the unbelieving Jews and survive to this day?

It cannot.

Therefore you should consider that Paul was writing to former Jews that are then believers in Jesus Christ for what the purpose of the epistle of Hebrews was written for to the edification of those that believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[Brightfame52]

I am sorry, I thought I had responded to this false claim.

No one is saying if you reject or fail to fully embrace the gospel, you are damned forever. A person might reject or not fully commit to the gospel initially, but subsequently "come to their senses" and "rededicate" their lives fully to Christ. Paul springs to mind as one who initially rejected the gospel, and John Mark as one, like the Prodigal Son, rededicated their life to Christ.

I will answer, Yes Paul rejected the Gospel and was a blasphemer, and unbeliever

1 Tim 1

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

 

[Brightfame52]

The assembly of former Jews that believe in Jesus Christ, otherwise the beginning of Hebrews would have that epistle destroyed before they read it any further.

Read how the epistle of Hebrews starts off like this;

Hebrews 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

How then can Paul be addressing Jews that are lost? How can this epistle be sent to the unbelieving Jews and survive to this day?

It cannot.

Therefore you should consider that Paul was writing to former Jews that are then believers in Jesus Christ for what the purpose of the epistle of Hebrews was written for to the edification of those that believe in Jesus Christ.

Not all of them were actually believers, but professed to believe. The writer made a distinction Heb 6:9

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

 

[Van]

I will answer, Yes Paul rejected the Gospel and was a blasphemer, and unbeliever

1 Tim 1

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

The issue is whether that rejected resulted in Paul being unable to subsequently fully embrace the gospel. And the answer is no, people are able to come to their senses or rededicate their lives.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Not all of them were actually believers, but professed to believe. The writer made a distinction Heb 6:9

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Paul was addressing about saved believers that fell away, but returned to the faith in Jesus Christ or return to following Him by faith in Him being our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him.

Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

This is Paul citing what every believer that was a Jew, went through at the day of their salvation. Note the call to go on to perfection after what they had all gone through from that day? That is what Paul is addressing next in regards to those that fell away but return that it is unnecessary for anyone that return, to go through all that in the beginning as explained below, thus the call to just move on to perfection.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So verse 8 is the consequence for those that did not return and when you compare that with 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, you may see with His help how those left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event that die, but their spirits are still saved. It is the woks on that foundation that gets burned off of that foundation as that foundation remains as the weeds & briars are burned off of that earth, but the earth remains for why salvation is still assured for those left behind even though they were not ready as found abiding in Him & His words but were engaging in works of iniquity for why they are denied by Him & left behind.

Anyway, in context, Paul is explaining those that fell away that return, have no need to go through all of that in verses 1 & 2, but just to go on to perfection with His help.

Paul illustrates this moving on to perfection further by the running of this race by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily in Hebrews 12:1-2 as He is with us always to resist sin in thought, word, & deed.

Then He goes on to testify of those who do not look to Jesus to help them resist sin in Hebrews 12:4 as the consequence is getting a scourging from the Father in Hebrews 12:6 so that they may be partakers of His holiness.

How does that relate to Hebrews 6:8? When comparing Luke 12:40-49 to Hebrews 12:6 for when they will get that scourging from the Father by those stripes in Luke 12:47-48 and that is when they get cut off to be with the unbelievers left behind in Luke 12:46 and how Jesus sends that fire on earth too in Luke 12:49 thus the burning in more ways than one in the fire that comes on earth will kill them, but it will burn off of that foundation all that offends as they shall receive stripes so that they will not commit that sin again when they are raised up after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in Hos House, the vessels of wood and earth ( 2 Tmothy 2:19-21 for not departing from iniquity ) that shall serve the King of kings on earth.

Even former believers that would verbally deny Him, He will deny them 2 Timothy 2:11-12 , BUT even though left behind ( unless they repent before He comes as the Bridegroom ) He is faithful for He still abides 2 Timothy 2:13.

And so that is why no former believer needs to go through all that in Hebrews 6:1-2 wen they return to the faith, but just move on to perfection by faith in Jesus Christ to help them lay aside every weight & sin daily to be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes.

 

[Brightfame52]

The issue is whether that rejected resulted in Paul being unable to subsequently fully embrace the gospel. And the answer is no, people are able to come to their senses or rededicate their lives.

He rejected the Gospel, Jesus saved him nevertheless