The Work of the Holy Spirit

[Yeshua1]

1 Corinthians 14 describes praying in the spirit( vs. 12-17.) Paul says when you pray in tongues your spirit prays! So that is praying in the spirit according to Paul. vs. 14

praying in the Spirit is NOT personal prayers made in tongues, its having your own language prayers led/guided/enabled by the Spirit, as He directs us in just how we should pray!

the Spirit knows the mind of God, He is God, so who bother to lread and guide our prayers in the way we ought to pray?

 

[John of Japan]

It is by my spirit I pray from when I pray in tongues. It is the Holy Spirit that gives the utterance (what to pray). Paul says that when we pray in tongues we pray with our spirit. So it is the Holy Spirit within me giving my spirit the utterance Acts 2:4.

Paul's command to pray in the Spirit in Eph. 6:18 is a general command to all in the church. However, it is clear that not all speak in tongues, according to 1 Cor. 12:30, "Do all speak with tongues?" Therefore, praying in the Holy Spirit in Eph. 6:18, and speaking in tongues, cannot be the same. There is a command to all Christians to pray in the Holy Spirit, but there is no command anywhere in the NT to all Christians to speak in tongues.

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks, spot on!!

I've appreciated your posts in this thread also.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Paul's command to pray in the Spirit in Eph. 6:18 is a general command to all in the church. However, it is clear that not all speak in tongues, according to 1 Cor. 12:30, "Do all speak with tongues?" Therefore, praying in the Holy Spirit in Eph. 6:18, and speaking in tongues, cannot be the same. There is a command to all Christians to pray in the Holy Spirit, but there is no command anywhere in the NT to all Christians to speak in tongues.

Thank you for the scriptural truth and accuracy and the rebuff of Charismatic error..

 

[John of Japan]

Thank you for the scriptural truth and accuracy and the rebuff of Charismatic error..

JoJ, opposing Charismatic tongues since 1986. :thumbs:

 

[awaken]

Paul's command to pray in the Spirit in Eph. 6:18 is a general command to all in the church. However, it is clear that not all speak in tongues, according to 1 Cor. 12:30, "Do all speak with tongues?" Therefore, praying in the Holy Spirit in Eph. 6:18, and speaking in tongues, cannot be the same. There is a command to all Christians to pray in the Holy Spirit, but there is no command anywhere in the NT to all Christians to speak in tongues.

Paul is not talking about the spiritual gifts here. He already talked about that in 1 Cor. 12:1-11. He's talking about ministry gifts, not gifts of the Spirit. Ministry gifts are people who are called inot the fivefold ministry and equipped with the gifts of the Spirit (Eph. 4:11-12). For example, an apostle is a ministry gift. A prophet is a ministry gift. Evangelist, pastors and teachers are ministry gifts. People who are called and equipped to stand in a ministry gift office carry a specific calling upon their lives where by they can minister and bless others.
Paul goes on to say "...after that miracles, then gifts of healing..." (1 Cor. 12:28). Paul is not changing his mind and talking of something else in the middle of this verse. Here he is speaking of the evangalist. Philip had a ministry of the evangelist in Acts 8.
Paul is saying that God set some-that is, specific people- in the Church who have a ministry of diversities of tongues.
THis is the office of a prophet. It refers to one who is called to minister in the public assembly in tongues and interpretation. Not everyone has that calling!
But everyone that was baptized in the Holy Spirit in Acts spoke in tongue (to magnify God).

 

[John of Japan]

Paul is not talking about the spiritual gifts here. He already talked about that in 1 Cor. 12:1-11. He's talking about ministry gifts, not gifts of the Spirit. Ministry gifts are people who are called inot the fivefold ministry and equipped with the gifts of the Spirit (Eph. 4:11-12). For example, an apostle is a ministry gift. A prophet is a ministry gift. Evangelist, pastors and teachers are ministry gifts. People who are called and equipped to stand in a ministry gift office carry a specific calling upon their lives where by they can minister and bless others.

This does not answer at all my exegesis of Eph. 6:18.

Paul goes on to say "...after that miracles, then gifts of healing..." (1 Cor. 12:28). Paul is not changing his mind and talking of something else in the middle of this verse. Here he is speaking of the evangalist. Philip had a ministry of the evangelist in Acts 8.
Paul is saying that God set some-that is, specific people- in the Church who have a ministry of diversities of tongues.
THis is the office of a prophet. It refers to one who is called to minister in the public assembly in tongues and interpretation. Not everyone has that calling!

Sorry, this doesn't cut it. There are no "healers" or "healing meetings" in the Bible, yet the healing gift is in 1 Cor. 12:30. So there was no office of "healer" in the early church, but there was a gift of healing. I don't have time to correct all your other errors, but you know what I believe anyway. And if we go much further down this road we'll end up derailing Tom's thread.

But everyone that was baptized in the Holy Spirit in Acts spoke in tongue (to magnify God).

This is patently false. They were baptized with the Spirit in Acts 8, but tongues do not appear anywhere in that chapter.

But your position is that they spoke to no one but God. You can't magnify God by speaking to Him, only by telling about Him to others. God is complete and infinite in Himself. He is not magnified by us telling Him, "God, you sure are neat," when no one else hears us.

And if all who are baptized in the Spirit speak with tongues, why are they not mentioned in any epistle but 1 Cor.? Eph. commands to be filled with the Spirit, but doesn't mention tongues. They are of least importance in God's plan.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

This does not answer at all my exegesis of Eph. 6:18.
Sorry, this doesn't cut it. There are no "healers" or "healing meetings" in the Bible, yet the healing gift is in 1 Cor. 12:30. So there was no office of "healer" in the early church, but there was a gift of healing. I don't have time to correct all your other errors, but you know what I believe anyway. And if we go much further down this road we'll end up derailing Tom's thread.
This is patently false. They were baptized with the Spirit in Acts 8, but tongues do not appear anywhere in that chapter.

But your position is that they spoke to no one but God. You can't magnify God by speaking to Him, only by telling about Him to others. God is complete and infinite in Himself. He is not magnified by us telling Him, "God, you sure are neat," when no one else hears us.

And if all who are baptized in the Spirit speak with tongues, why are they not mentioned in any epistle but 1 Cor.? Eph. commands to be filled with the Spirit, but doesn't mention tongues. They are of least importance in God's plan.

Bravo!

I guess she had a temporary memory lapse over Acts 8. I started to call her on that, but I figured you would, and I wasn't disappointed.

 

[awaken]

This does not answer at all my exegesis of Eph. 6:18.

If you follow Pauls's writings wherever he uses the terms "in the spirit" "with the spirit", you find that he is implying praying in other tongues. THere is no way in our understanding can we pray for ALL saints as it says in 6:18 because we do not know All saints.
Paul is clear in 1 Cor. 14:14 that when you pray in tongues, your spirit prays.

Sorry, this doesn't cut it. There are no "healers" or "healing meetings" in the Bible, yet the healing gift is in 1 Cor. 12:30. So there was no office of "healer" in the early church, but there was a gift of healing. I don't have time to correct all your other errors, but you know what I believe anyway. And if we go much further down this road we'll end up derailing Tom's thread.
This is patently false. They were baptized with the Spirit in Acts 8, but tongues do not appear anywhere in that chapter.

So you are saying they did not heal a lot of people at one time in Acts? In Acts 8 there was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit because Simon SAW something. Why would you think it was anything other than what happen in Acts 2, 10 and 19 ALL the other scriptures mention tongues as being at least one of the manifestations.

But your position is that they spoke to no one but God. You can't magnify God by speaking to Him, only by telling about Him to others. God is complete and infinite in Himself. He is not magnified by us telling Him, "God, you sure are neat," when no one else hears us.

Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5)

"Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds! So great is your power that your enemies cringe before you."" (Psalms 66:3)

Why were the disciples praising God in tongues? Because this is one of the primary purposes for tongues:

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)

On the day of Pentecost the disciples were talking to God in the Holy Spirit (they were praying in the Spirit), they were not sharing the Gospel in tongues.

And if all who are baptized in the Spirit speak with tongues, why are they not mentioned in any epistle but 1 Cor.? Eph. commands to be filled with the Spirit, but doesn't mention tongues. They are of least importance in God's plan.

I believe filling can be more than once. The baptism by Jesus in the HOly Spirit only happens once!

 

[awaken]

Bravo!

I guess she had a temporary memory lapse over Acts 8. I started to call her on that, but I figured you would, and I wasn't disappointed.

My point proven!

 

[John of Japan]

Bravo!

I guess she had a temporary memory lapse over Acts 8. I started to call her on that, but I figured you would, and I wasn't disappointed.

Oh, don't worry. Somehow he'll work it around to tongues like he does every other passage in the Bible about the Holy Spirit. (Tongue in cheek here.):tonofbricks:

 

[John of Japan]

If you follow Pauls's writings wherever he uses the terms "in the spirit" "with the spirit", you find that he is implying praying in other tongues. THere is no way in our understanding can we pray for ALL saints as it says in 6:18 because we do not know All saints.
Paul is clear in 1 Cor. 14:14 that when you pray in tongues, your spirit prays.

Like I just said to Thomas (before seeing your post), you're going to try to get tongues in everywhere! But how can I say this theologically? Your idea that "If you follow Pauls's writings wherever he uses the terms "in the spirit" "with the spirit", you find that he is implying praying in other tongues." is absolute baloney! It is a classic example of eisegesis, putting your own idea into the Bible and thinking it to be truth.

No matter how you squrim, you simply can't deny the fact that the only place in all of Paul's writings where he mentions tongues is 1 Cor. 12-14, to the worst, most immoral church in the NT. Tongues are of minor importance in the Bible, no matter how hard you try to make the phenomenon of major importance (a hallmark of the tongues movement).

Now can we get away from tongues? This thread is not about that. You simply see tongues everywhere! (Kind of sloppy, when you think about it....) :smilewinkgrin:

So you are saying they did not heal a lot of people at one time in Acts? In Acts 8 there was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit because Simon SAW something. Why would you think it was anything other than what happen in Acts 2, 10 and 19 ALL the other scriptures mention tongues as being at least one of the manifestations.

Irrelevant to the thread. And besides, I didn't say nor think that.

The rest of your post is also irrelevant to the thread.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

My point proven!

That is a nonsensical remark.

You are as near to lunacy as anyone I've seen here.

If I get an infraction, so be it. But I don't know how else to describe this.

 

[awaken]

Like I just said to Thomas (before seeing your post), you're going to try to get tongues in everywhere! But how can I say this theologically? Your idea that "If you follow Pauls's writings wherever he uses the terms "in the spirit" "with the spirit", you find that he is implying praying in other tongues." is absolute baloney! It is a classic example of eisegesis, putting your own idea into the Bible and thinking it to be truth.

No matter how you squrim, you simply can't deny the fact that the only place in all of Paul's writings where he mentions tongues is 1 Cor. 12-14, to the worst, most immoral church in the NT. Tongues are of minor importance in the Bible, no matter how hard you try to make the phenomenon of major importance (a hallmark of the tongues movement).

Now can we get away from tongues? This thread is not about that. You simply see tongues everywhere! (Kind of sloppy, when you think about it....) :smilewinkgrin:

The Op ask about praying in the Spirit! THat is tongues according to Paul. He did not have to correct other churches like he did Corinthians. But We can not throw away or deny what he said in Corinthians just because he did not mention it in his other writings. But he did call praying in tongues..his spirit prays. Same thing as praying with the spirit!

Irrelevant to the thread. And besides, I didn't say nor think that.

The rest of your post is also irrelevant to the thread.

You brought up Acts 8...I just responded! Simon SAW something!!

 

[awaken]

That is a nonsensical remark.

You are as near to lunacy as anyone I've seen here.

If I get an infraction, so be it. But I don't know how else to describe this.

I am just proving a point I made in another thread! Every thread I post on...you follow with these kind of remarks INSTEAD of addressing the post in a descent manner! So you are continually proving my point!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I am just proving a point I made in another thread! Every thread I post on...you follow with these kind of remarks INSTEAD of addressing the post in a descent manner! So you are continually proving my point!

I have replied to you numerous times on many threads using scripture, history, and reason, and still you are blind, refuse to see, or can't comprehend. In whatever thread you post, you only want to talk about one thing. You are totally clueless.

 

[awaken]

I have replied to you numerous times on many threads using scripture, history, and reason, and still you are blind, refuse to see, or can't comprehend. In whatever thread you post, you only want to talk about one thing. You are totally clueless.

So because I do not agree with your interpretation I am blind, can not comprehend, ignorant...etc. So just say you do not agree..you can say that without your smart remarks and cut downs!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

So because I do not agree with your interpretation I am blind, can not comprehend, ignorant...etc. So just say you do not agree..you can say that without your smart remarks and cut downs!

No, it is not because you don't agree with my interpretation. See, you cannot even comprehend that.

 

[Van]

Such a shame, a good thread on the work of the Spirit totally sidetracked into yet another advocacy of speaking in unknown tongues.

The important point that praying in the Spirit includes praying for the least of His in the body of Christ, such that we mirror the compassion of Christ has been trampled.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Such a shame, a good thread on the work of the Spirit totally sidetracked into yet another advocacy of speaking in unknown tongues.

The important point that praying in the Spirit includes praying for the least of His in the body of Christ, such that we mirror the compassion of Christ has been trampled.

Yes, because that's what she does. Charismatics make tongues the center of the gospel, turning what Paul said on its head.