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The Work of the Holy Spirit
- Thread starter Tom Butler
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Here is how unimportant tongues are in the Bible. First of all, it doesn't appear at all in the OT. There are no prophecies of it at all, none whatsoever.
Secondly, there are 7954 verses in the NT. Tongues occur (arguably) in only 25 verses. That means that tongues are in only 0.3% of the NT. That's 3 tenths of one per cent of the NT! Tongues are extremely unimportant in the NT. Yet you and other Charismatics make tongues a major doctrine.
Yes, and you didn't answer my point in Acts 8, that there were no tongues there in spite of the baptism of the Holy Spirit there or in Eph. You refuse to admit you were wrong when you said that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is always accompanied by tongues.
None of the gifts are unimportant! True, you will find seven of the nine gifts in the OT and in the life of Jesus. You will not find tongues and interpretation operating in His ministry either. You do find this gift prophesied about in Is. 28:11-12. These two gifts are distinctive of this Holy Spirit Dispensation/church age which began the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Jesus did mention this gift in Mark 16.
No, we just have to defend that one more than the others because there is such unbelief out there about it!
Because I showed that there was a manifestation! Simon SAW something! No, it does not say tongues! But Acts 2,10 and 19 show that when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit that they spoke in tongues. Why should we believe that these did not? True, it could have been another manifestation...but something manifested for Simon to SEE!
You keep parroting this; but you are wrong. You have no Biblical proof, no evidence from the Scripture of any kind. What you do is read into the Bible that what you want to see--make it say what you already believe. You don't want to believe what the Bible teaches. In fact you, in somewhat of a silly fashion, are teaching what should be in the Bible, but isn't.
For example, there is not one place where Paul or anyone else teaches that praying in/with the spirit is the same as speaking/praying in tongues. It isn't there. But you are teaching God that it is in the Bible. You are really trying hard to teach God/Bible that it is there so you can demonstrate to us the same. It is a hilarious thing to watch, really!
Awaken......we all know it just is not happening....you do not do what you claim even
though you have convinced yourself that it is really taking place.
Someone who does not live in reality claims that many things are true, that are not.
You do not want to be like that do you?
though you have convinced yourself that it is really taking place.
Someone who does not live in reality claims that many things are true, that are not.
You do not want to be like that do you?
Isaiah did NOT prophesy the tongues of the NT, unless you think that "stammering lips" are a good thing. The Isaiah passage says nothing about miraculous tongues or tongues that cannot be understood. In fact, it is arguable whether or not the person speaking in that passage is a believer or the wicked, drunken priests of v. 7.
And it is also arguable whether Jesus spoke of miraculous tongues in Mark 16. Personally, I think He just meant we missionaries would learn languages all over the world, as I have learned Japanese and minister in it here in Japan.
No one was attacking or even discussing tongues on this thread until you came along. And there were precious few discussions on the BB until you came along. So here you are, making a big fuss about an extremely minor doctrine, which is mentioned in only 0.03% of the NT.
You have indeed made tongues a major doctrine on the BB. You have argued about it over and over, more than anyone who has ever posted here. I've never seen you discuss the church, which the majority of the NT is about, or future events like in Matt. 24-25 and the whole book of Revelation, or the Resurrection of 1 Cor. 15, or even the doctrine of Christ, which is precious to all of us: His virgin birth, life, death on the cross, resurrection, etc. Tongues is your doctrine, and by George you'll discuss it here ad nauseum ad infinitum.
As a former tongues speaker wrote, "Worn as a badge of identification, tongues results in walls of division, mistrust, and resentment. Much of the strong negative feeling that many church people hold against tongues speaking can be traced to this misuse" (I Once Spoke in Tongues, by Wayne A. Robinson, p. 123).
We should believe they did not speak in tongues in Acts 8 because the Bible does not SAY they spoke in tongues. If you say they spoke in tongues in Acts 8 when the Bible does not say so, you are in grave danger of adding to Scripture. At the least you are putting your own thoughts into the interpretation of Scripture, which is gravely wrong and dangerous.
Was there some other manifestation? The Bible does not say, so we should not say. Please, by all means, learn how to interpret the Bible rightly if you are going to try to teach us about it. 2 Peter 1:20--"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." You can't interpret it how you wish, you must interpret according to what the Bible says.
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I know what I have is real! I have shown in scriptures why I can stand on His Word concerning this!
If an unbeliever came up to you and said Jesus is not real! Would it change your salvation?
Well! Your unbelief about my life with Jesus does not affect it! It is still real!
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
This is Jesus speaking to the people and it is the rest..the refreshing.
You better look back on the thread! Because someone did want to discuss praying in the spirit! As far as Mark 16...all of the five signs following the believer are supernatural! Why would you think that speaking in other tongues is not?
Well, it is in the Bible! So why are so many afraid to discuss it?
I post in other threads! Tongues is a Bible doctrine not just my doctrine!
I did not say they spoke in tongues! I said something was manifested because Simon SAW something! I made the statement that "In all the other examples of baptism in the Holy Spirit, tongues was the manifestation!" So why would we think that tongues was not what was manifestation? But I was not dogmatic about it! There are 9 manifestations of the Holy Spirit!
I did let the Bible interpret it self! Again! I was not dogmatic about Acts 8...Just that something was seen by Simon!
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Tom Butler
New Member
I've not contributed much since the OP. Just sorta lurking. There have been some efforts to define all those terms relating to the work of the Spirit, all very helpful.
Now that we're stuck on the tongues issue, let me throw in a few questions.
Is it the will of God that all believers speak in tongues? Since it is evident that all do not (I among them), why not?
I have never had a prayer language? What's my problem?
Is praying (or speaking) in tongues a gift? Is it sovereignly given? If it is, why is it not given to every believer? If it is not, how does one do it?
Can one learn to do it?
Can those who do it teach others to do it?
Does God know the desires of our heart before we ask? Yes or no, why do we have to express those desires in a language we don't understand? And how do we know that we are actually speaking the desires of our heart?
Now that we're stuck on the tongues issue, let me throw in a few questions.
Is it the will of God that all believers speak in tongues? Since it is evident that all do not (I among them), why not?
I have never had a prayer language? What's my problem?
Is praying (or speaking) in tongues a gift? Is it sovereignly given? If it is, why is it not given to every believer? If it is not, how does one do it?
Can one learn to do it?
Can those who do it teach others to do it?
Does God know the desires of our heart before we ask? Yes or no, why do we have to express those desires in a language we don't understand? And how do we know that we are actually speaking the desires of our heart?
Thomas Helwys
New Member
The tongues you speak in are not a language; therefore, you do not speak in tongues as in the NT; therefore, the tongues you speak in are not of God. Therefore, who are they from?
And with this, you blow your own belief in tongues out of the water. If Isaiah is talking about "Jesus speaking to the people," then you are completely wrong about Acts 2, which you have insisted in other threads is not God's people speaking in tongues to others in their language, but is the believers speaking to God in an unknown tongue, a prayer language.
You can't have it both ways. If you are right in this post, then Isaiah did not prophesy Acts 2. And the tongues in 1 Cor. 12-14 are also therefore earthly languages, not some unknown personal prayer language, since Paul does quote part of the Isaiah passage in 1 Cor. 14:21.
When other people read about praying in the Spirit, they think of the precious Holy Spirit leading them and helping them. But you think of tongues, a minor little doctrine in the NT, 20 of 25 verses on it being to the worst church in the NT!! How sad.
Afraid? I've discussed it over and over with you, as have others. I'll tell you what I'm "afraid" of: that someone like you will come into my church and split it with their unbiblical tongues. I dare you to "google" the phrase "tongues church split." When I did so, I got "About 10,800,000 results." You are teaching and proclaiming an unbiblical, dangerous doctrine, something that literally destroys churches.
From what I've seen, you'll post a couple of times on some other thread, but when it's about tongues you really get excited. But hey, I'm not your keeper and don't follow your career here that closely. Maybe you post in detail on all sorts of threads. But you sure get excited about tongues!
Let me give another detail of my mathematical analysis. Of the 25 times "tongues" appear in the NT, fully 20 of them are in 1 Cor. 12-14, Paul correcting the Corinthian errors. This means that of 7954 verses in the NT, only 5 are positive about tongues. The upshot is that you make a big deal about only 0.06% of the NT. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill!
There are so many other wonderful things about the Holy Spirit and His work, yet here you are, once again making a big deal about tongues.
Well, the passage says nothing about "manifestations" per se, so even if you didn't say "tongues" per se, you are still out of line. Learn to let the Bible speak for itself. What Simon actually saw was that the apostles laid hands on people and they received the Holy Spirit. Other than that we don't know, so you are wrong to say.
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How do you know what I speak in? How do you know if they are real languages or not?
Thomas Helwys
New Member
I am going by what you have said, and by the facts and history of Pentecostalism, which tongues have been proven on the mission field to not be real languages but merely gibberish. So, you do not have the gift of tongues, and if you do not, then neither do you have a prayer language. What you apparently have is a learned behavior, like 99.5% of other Charismatics.
Tom Butler
New Member
I'll jump in here with a question or two.
Those who spoke in tongues on the Day of Pentecost spoke known languages, because the multinational crowd heard in their own language. The miracle was as much in the hearing as the speaking.
In I Corinthians 14:27-28
Not long ago, I was watching TBN. Kenneth Copeland and somebody whose name I can't remember suddenly began speaking in tongues--to each other. They were laughing and having a high old time, and the audience went bananas. But nobody interpreted. Isn't this wrong?
That same passage also says if there's no interpreter, they are to keep silence in the church. Does this mean that tongues were forbidden outside a church meeting?
Then in 14:22
Does this mean that if there are no lost people present in the church, don't allow tongues because they're not for believers?
Just some questions for y'all to take a crack at?
Those who spoke in tongues on the Day of Pentecost spoke known languages, because the multinational crowd heard in their own language. The miracle was as much in the hearing as the speaking.
In I Corinthians 14:27-28
Not long ago, I was watching TBN. Kenneth Copeland and somebody whose name I can't remember suddenly began speaking in tongues--to each other. They were laughing and having a high old time, and the audience went bananas. But nobody interpreted. Isn't this wrong?
That same passage also says if there's no interpreter, they are to keep silence in the church. Does this mean that tongues were forbidden outside a church meeting?
Then in 14:22
Does this mean that if there are no lost people present in the church, don't allow tongues because they're not for believers?
Just some questions for y'all to take a crack at?
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Yes, what Copeland and the other person was doing was wrong.
Charismatics mangle the NT in doctrine and practice.
beameup
Member
It's pretty clear to me that these were transitionary gifts (tongues & prophecy).
The first occassion was in fulfillment of Joel's prophecy (Acts 2) as a sign to the Jews.
Then the gift was also given to the Gentiles so they could communicate the gospel in a language that they didn't know and as a sign to the Jews
that God was transitioning to the Pauline Gentile Church, as Israel was not fulfilling their mission. Finally, God cut them off in 70AD.
Now, I believe upon the "departure" (harpazo), that this gift of instantly knowing another language, will resume for those Jews
who finally recognize that Jesus truly is the Messiah, and will use it to evangelize during the Tribulation.
Well, I guess that is where we differ! I go by what the BIble says! Tongues is praying/speaking to God! Period!
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