The X in Christmas

[latterrain77]

Hi BaptistBeliever. Thank you for your reply.

You said, "So 2000 years of Christian history and tradition are meaningless because you have a different opinion? I did NOT say that Christian history is meaningless. I said that the history concerning the "X" as reported on this thread was meaningless. I value opinions that are different from my own and occassionally learn from them.

You said, "You're missing the fact that it is not X-ing out Christ's name. You you say the pronounce the name of Jesus as "Yeshua"? I'm saying it is wrong to replace the name of CHRIST with an "X" in the word Christmas (regardless of a church's history). By definition the word Xmas DOES literally "X-out" the name CHRIST in the word "Christmas." That is plain to see by anyone looking at it or listening to the two words. Many in society (believers and otherwise) perceive it as an "X-ing out" of Christ's name. It gives the appearance of such (that is why there is a controversy concerning it) and accordingly should be avoided (1 Thess. 5: 22). Why use it? (Rom. 14: 21). Why not just say Merry CHRISTmas? Isn't it better to proclaim the name of Christ as much as possible? Isn't it comforting to write the word "CHRISTmas" on a holiday card and, doesn't it feel cold to write the word "Xmas"? What message does the word "Xmas" send to the reciever of the card? (who is likely to percieve it's meaning as "X-ing out" Christ's name without any thought of Greek language or a congregation's history).

You said, "Only ignorant people assume that those who spell "Christmas" as "Xmas" have changed anything. Ignorant? I don't believe you really mean that. It is not like you to talk like that BaptistBeliever.

You said, "Actually, it refers to Christ as "Xristos" (except using Greek letters). Yes, and that is a whole word NOT a singular letter "X." In the English language, the letter "X" is often used to; black out, blot out, cross out, cut, cut off, cut out, delete, destroy, eradicate, erase, expunge, etc. My Greek friends (some of them Greek Orthodox) use the word CHRISTmas. They do not use the word Xmas. My Greek friend "Kristos" is named "Kristos" - he is not named "X."

You said, "If you want to be "biblical," you better stop using English translations/transliterations." I speak and read English as do most others in America. Accordingly, I won't (can't) stop reading English translations as you suggest (King James preferred).

You said, "I've never seen the word "Christ" covered with a huge "X". That is exactly what the word "Xmas" does to the word Christ in the word Christmas. That is obvious! The "X" replaces the "Christ."

You said, "Furthermore, many unbelievers are ignorant of Christian history,.."
You are correct that many are unaware. However, some of them EXPLOIT this as a pretense to "X-out" Christ's name in the word Christmas.

You said, "...so we shouldn't base our faith and practice on those who outside of the faith." Our faith, no. Our witness, Yes! (Mark 16: 15, Col. 1: 28, Col. 4: 6).

You said, "Actually it can provide a great opportunity to share your faith to an unbeliever when you discuss the term "Xmas". It also provides a great opportunity to tell them that the word Xmas blocks out the word Christ in the word CHRISTmas and should be avoided. The name CHRIST should be proclaimed on Christmas (and every other day too) not the letter "X." Jesus is the reason for the season, not the letter "X." Aside from the word Christmas, do you refer to Jesus as "X" when you preach or witness?

You said, "Actually, you're talking about the *English* Bible. We're drawing on a heritage longer and broader than the English Bible translations." While I appreciate "church history," proclaiming the name of Christ in a language and verbiage that is understandable in a given community is the ideal. Do you preach and teach from a non-English Bible? I doubt that you do. Are your sermons or witness in "Greek"? Latin? I doubt it. So why do differently with the words CHRISTmas and Xmas?

You said, "You need to repent." We all do (Matt. 4: 17). But thank you for reminding me anyway. And thank you again for your comments BaptistBeliever. They are appreciated.

latterrain77

[ December 20, 2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
You said, "So 2000 years of Christian history and tradition are meaningless because you have a different opinion? I did NOT say that Christian history is meaningless. I said that the history concerning the "X" as reported on this thread was meaningless. I value opinions that are different from my own and occassionally learn from them.

The problem with this statement is that the history presented in this thread is consistent with Christian history. Therefore, it cannot be meaningless. If you choose to reject it, them it may become meaningless for you, but it is still relevant for others.

You said, "You're missing the fact that it is not X-ing out Christ's name. You you say the pronounce the name of Jesus as "Yeshua"? I'm saying it is wrong to replace the name of CHRIST with an "X" in the word Christmas (regardless of a church's history).

1.) "Christ" is not a name but a title.
2.) The "chi" (the "X") is a symbol of Christ just like the "C", the "h", the "r", the "i", the "s", and the "t" are symbols of a greater reality. If you participate in the reductionism that "Christ" is simply a set of letters put together in a certain way, you have completely missed the point. Christ can be represented by "X", "Christ" or "Xristos" equally as well.
3.) The symbol "X" is not an English letter (pronounced "ex"), but rather a Greek letter "Chi" which is pronounced with a "K" sound. When you see it used as a symbol (as in "Xmas"), the proper pronounciation is "Christ" (as in "Christmas").

By definition the word Xmas DOES literally "X-out" the name CHRIST in the word "Christmas."

It is not an English "X" and it does not "X" anything out (that would be the word "Christ" with an "X" over it).

That is plain to see by anyone looking at it or listening to the two words.

It is a mistaken assumption by people who are ignorant of the meaning.

Many in society (believers and otherwise) perceive it as an "X-ing out" of Christ's name.

Yes, strangely enough, Christians are the ones who seem to be misrepresenting their history and symbols. It is an indictment of how ignorant many Christians are of their heritage and how reactionary/paranoid American Christians have become.

It gives the appearance of such (that is why there is a controversy concerning it)

You seem to be the prime one having the "controversy". Perhaps it is because you consider the history presented in this thread to be "irrelevant"?

and accordingly should be avoided (1 Thess. 5: 22).

There is no evil in using it. But why have you falsely judged fellow believers as being non-believers for using it? I would consider that evil.

Why use it? (Rom. 14: 21).

Am I making you "fall" or am I annoying you because I don't let you be the interpreter of my Christian faith?

There are many reasons to use it.

1.) Part of our Christian heritage.
2.) The "cross" of the "Chi" is the symbol of Christ's sacrifice.
3.) It is a teaching and witnessing tool.

Why not just say Merry CHRISTmas?

We do say "Merry Christmas". I supposed you missed that part of the discussion... The "chi", when used in this context, is pronounced "Christ" since it is a symbol for the title of the Lord Jesus. Anyone who says "Merry Ex-mass" is mispronouncing it.

Isn't it better to proclaim the name of Christ as much as possible?

We do.

Isn't it comforting to write the word "CHRISTmas" on a holiday card and, doesn't it feel cold to write the word "Xmas"?

No. I am comforted by communion with a living Savior, not a collection of letters.

What message does the word "Xmas" send to the reciever of the card? (who is likely to percieve it's meaning as "X-ing out" Christ's name without any thought of Greek language or a congregation's history).

The message is "Merry Christmas". Do you get bent out of shape when your church sings "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing" because much of the congregation probably won't understand the line "Here I raise mine Ebeneezer" and think they are singing about someone's aged uncle (or worse)?

Please give people a little bit of credit for intelligence and initiative to discover the meaning of the word/symbol. If you know the person to whom you are sending the card, they would likely know what you mean by the greeting.

You said, "Only ignorant people assume that those who spell "Christmas" as "Xmas" have changed anything. Ignorant? I don't believe you really mean that. It is not like you to talk like that BaptistBeliever.

It's not meant as an insult. To be "ignorant" is to be lacking in knowledge or unaware. Ignorance is a neutral term. I'll rephrase the statement: "Only people who are 'lacking in knowledge' assume that those who spell "Christmas" as "Xmas" have changed anything." Is that better?

You said, "Actually, it refers to Christ as "Xristos" (except using Greek letters). Yes, and that is a whole word NOT a singular letter "X."

Hence, the single letter "chi" (not "ex") is a *symbol*.

In the English language, the letter "X" is often used to; black out, blot out, cross out, cut, cut off, cut out, delete, destroy, eradicate, erase, expunge, etc.

Actually, I don't think you can say that the crossing out mark is the English letter "X". They have completely different meanings even though the symbol is the same. Context is the key to interpretation in these cases.

My Greek friends (some of them Greek Orthodox) use the word CHRISTmas. They do not use the word Xmas.

But I know that the Greek Orthodox say the name of Christ in Greek in their services. They also probably know what the chi means as a symbol. I doubt they are confused if they see the spelling "Xmas".

My Greek friend "Kristos" is named "Kristos" - he is not named "X."

And I suspect he is not the Christ.

No one has made the claim that the name "Kristos" is usually symbolized by the "chi". We are talking about the *symbol* for the *title* of the Messiah. (Jesus was not born to Mary and Joseph Christ!)

You said, "If you want to be "biblical," you better stop using English translations/transliterations." I speak and read English as do most others in America. Accordingly, I won't (can't) stop reading English translations as you suggest (King James preferred).

That's a partial quote taken completely out of context...

You said, "I've never seen the word "Christ" covered with a huge "X". That is exactly what the word "Xmas" does to the word Christ in the word Christmas. That is obvious! The "X" replaces the "Christ."

I said "covered", you said "replaces". Those are two very different words with different meanings. Do I need to spell out the implications for you?

You said, "Furthermore, many unbelievers are ignorant of Christian history,.."
You are correct that many are unaware. However, some of them EXPLOIT this as a pretense to "X-out" Christ's name in the word Christmas.

And they do it foolishly. When we see it, we can use it as an opportunity to explain the gospel.

You said, "...so we shouldn't base our faith and practice on those who outside of the faith." Our faith, no. Our witness, Yes! (Mark 16: 15, Col. 1: 28, Col. 4: 6).

People misinterpret things all the time. Should we toss out something in worship (like "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing") simply because a pagan walking in off the street might not understand everything in it? Symbols like the "Chi" provide "teachable moments" to those outside the faith. Jesus told spiritual truth in sometimes mysterious parables to draw in those who were really interested and to drive away those who were looking for something else. If there is a mystery to the "chi", then Christians should use it!

You said, "Actually it can provide a great opportunity to share your faith to an unbeliever when you discuss the term "Xmas". It also provides a great opportunity to tell them that the word Xmas blocks out the word Christ in the word CHRISTmas and should be avoided.

There is no "blocking out" of Christ (it is replaced by a symbol). If you say they should avoid it you are merely misinforming them and making the problem worse.

The name CHRIST should be proclaimed on Christmas (and every other day too) not the letter "X."

It is.

Jesus is the reason for the season, not the letter "X."

Nice slogan.

Aside from the word Christmas, do you refer to Jesus as "X" when you preach or witness?

The question you are asking me:

"Aside from the word Christmas, do you refer to Jesus as "Christ" when you preach or witness?"

The answer is yes. Sometimes I refer to him as "Jesus" too.

You said, "Actually, you're talking about the *English* Bible. We're drawing on a heritage longer and broader than the English Bible translations." While I appreciate "church history," proclaiming the name of Christ in a language and verbiage that is understandable in a given community is the ideal.

Certainly. But we should not shy away from symbols and meanings that are not readily apparent.

Do you preach and teach from a non-English Bible? I doubt that you do. Are your sermons or witness in "Greek"? Latin? I doubt it. So why do differently with the words CHRISTmas and Xmas?

Actually, I don't use the "chi" very much. I find the word "Christmas" to be more pleasing to the eye, so I use that representation.

This thread started with someone asking about the meaning. I (and several others) gave an accurate response. Suddenly you blasted onto the scene condemning everyone who used the "chi" as non-believers. Since I am a follower of Christ, you charge is patently false. I have responded with explanations and a request for your to repent of your false charges.

You said, "You need to repent." We all do (Matt. 4: 17). But thank you for reminding me anyway.

You specifically need to repent of your false charges and recognize that (although you may not agree with them), "true believers" do use the "chi" to represent and honor Christ.

[ December 20, 2002, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

[Baptist Believer]

[double post]

[ December 20, 2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

[Ransom]

Too bad latterrain is ashamed to write one of Jesus' initials. I, for one, am glad to save a bit of time and ink here and there.

And, as I am off for two weeks of holidays, Merry Xmas to all!

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Agreed.

Perhaps those who say it isn't giving in to the world would like to go on the infidels and atheists forums and explain the original meaning to them, since they certainly don't use the terms Xian and Xmas in the historical sense from what I've seen....

I don't really waste my time in intellectual discussion with infidels and atheists because the gospel is a rational argument. I don't care to even register on such a site.

However, I do talk to people about it whenever the subject comes up. If you still hang out on those forums, you could point out their inconsistency.</font>[/QUOTE] Baptist Believer! I've never registered at one of those forums either & never engaged them in discussion except here on this Board when they were allowed to post. But I have lurked on a couple of sites a few times and noticed the "X" usage. Never "hung out" there! You must have me mixed up with someone else!

(But, Merry CHRISTmas, anyway!

)

 

[latterrain77]

Hi BaptistBeliever. Thank you for your follow up reply.

You said, "Yes, strangely enough, Christians are the ones who seem to be misrepresenting their history and symbols. It is an indictment of how ignorant many Christians are of their heritage and how reactionary/paranoid American Christians have become."

Can you explain what you mean by your words and your phrase; "Reactionary/Paranoid American Christians?"

You said, "You seem to be the prime one having the "controversy."

There is no controversy for me. I've already made up my mind.

You said, "Am I making you "fall" or am I annoying you because I don't let you be the interpreter of my Christian faith?"

You are neither making me fall nor are you annoying me. I have no interest in being the interpreter of anybody's faith.

You said, "The "chi", when used in this context, is pronounced "Christ" since it is a symbol for the title of the Lord Jesus."

In what human language is an "X" pronounced "Christ"? The word "Christ" in Greek is pronounced and spelled as "Khristos" (Christos)not "X" (chi - khee).

You said, "Anyone who says "Merry Ex-mass" is mispronouncing it."

Virtually everyone pronounces "Xmas" as "EX-mass." Only an infinitesimal tiny group (if any at all) pronounce it any other way. How do you pronounce it?

You said, "Actually, I don't think you can say that the crossing out mark is the English letter "X".

People routinely "X-out" what they perceive as a mistake (ie. cross out, cut off, delete, eradicate, erase, etc). They often do this by using an "X" to replace or cover what they are deleting (X-ing out). It is the same letter "X" that is used in the English language.

You said, "The question you are asking me: "Aside from the word Christmas, do you refer to Jesus as "Christ" when you preach or witness?" The answer is yes. Sometimes I refer to him as "Jesus" too."

My question was different. But I'll rephrase it. When you conduct written Bible studies or commentaries, do you write an "X" in place of where you would write "Christ" as you do when you write an "X" instead of "Christ" in Xmas? If you use the letter "X" as a symbol for Christ in the word Xmas, then why haven't you done so in your numerous written commentaries where you DO use the word Christ and do NOT use an "X" in it's place?

You said, "Actually, I don't use the "chi" very much. I find the word "Christmas" to be more pleasing to the eye, so I use that representation."

So you're saying that you use the word Christmas but you encourage others to use the word Xmas?

Thank you again for your follow up BaptistBeliever. It is appreciated.

latterrain77

[ December 20, 2002, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Agreed.

Perhaps those who say it isn't giving in to the world would like to go on the infidels and atheists forums and explain the original meaning to them, since they certainly don't use the terms Xian and Xmas in the historical sense from what I've seen....

I don't really waste my time in intellectual discussion with infidels and atheists because the gospel is a rational argument. I don't care to even register on such a site.

However, I do talk to people about it whenever the subject comes up. If you still hang out on those forums, you could point out their inconsistency.</font>[/QUOTE] Baptist Believer! I've never registered at one of those forums either & never engaged them in discussion except here on this Board when they were allowed to post. But I have lurked on a couple of sites a few times and noticed the "X" usage. Never "hung out" there! You must have me mixed up with someone else! </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry.

When I first came to Baptist Board you thought I was a troll and you made several references to what was going on at some sort of "infidel" message board. I thought you spent time there arguing for Christ. I must have misunderstood you.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
Hi BaptistBeliever. Thank you for your follow up reply.

[QB]You said, "Yes, strangely enough, Christians are the ones who seem to be misrepresenting their history and symbols. It is an indictment of how ignorant many Christians are of their heritage and how reactionary/paranoid American Christians have become."

Can you explain what you mean by your words and your phrase; "Reactionary/Paranoid American Christians?"

Yes.

"reactionary" -- Christians who make knee-jerk responses to something they don't like or understand without making a serious attempt to understand what concerns them. Instead of trying to inform themselves or discover and embrace truth, they attack.

"paranoid" -- Christians who assume that anything that is foreign, unknown to them, or out of their control is somehow harmful. They would rather take comfort in the familiar -- even if it is wrong.

"American" -- Christians who participate in the dominant subculture of evangelical church life who do not know or care to know about history, tradition or the rest of the world.

"Christians" -- those who identify themselves with Christ and who claim to be followers of Him.

What I meant from the phrase in this context is that this attitude seems to be typical of the worst of the Christian subculture to embrace ignorance and condemn on the basis of that ignorance.

You said, "You seem to be the prime one having the "controversy."

There is no controversy for me. I've already made up my mind.

Then your remarks about a controversy are meaningless.

You said, "Am I making you "fall" or am I annoying you because I don't let you be the interpreter of my Christian faith?"

You are neither making me fall nor are you annoying me. I have no interest in being the interpreter of anybody's faith.

Then the scripture you quoted about causing a brother to stumble/fall is irrelevant.

You said, "The "chi", when used in this context, is pronounced "Christ" since it is a symbol for the title of the Lord Jesus."

In what human language is an "X" pronounced "Christ"? The word "Christ" in Greek is pronounced and spelled as "Khristos" (Christos)not "X" (chi - khee).

As it has been explained to you before, the "chi" is a *symbol*. A symbol is "something used for or regarding something else; a letter, figure, or other character or mark or a combination of letters or the like used to represent something." We use these symbols in mathematics, like the symbol for pi or infinity. We use symbol for the periodic table of the elements. Road signs are symbols. The cross is a symbol.

Do you understand yet? The "chi" is a symbol for Christ. Your seeming failure to comprehend the nature of using letters as symbols stretches credibility.

You said, "Anyone who says "Merry Ex-mass" is mispronouncing it."

Virtually everyone pronounces "Xmas" as "EX-mass." Only an infinitesimal tiny group (if any at all) pronounce it any other way.

I don't know where you live (other than the USA), but I rarely here people saying "Ex-mass". Now in Texas we may be more educated about such things, but I suspect the mispronouncing that you hear may have more to do with the simple fact that you only seem to hear those who mispronounce it because they either have an issue with it or they are ignorant of the facts.

I did hear a television announcer mispronounce it the other night (I think "Xmas" was in the title of some show), but I don't expect much from television announcers. (I've heard much worse than that on network television.)

How do you pronounce it?

I've answered this before...

The proper way to pronounce it is "Christmas". I pronounce it the proper way.

You said, "Actually, I don't think you can say that the crossing out mark is the English letter "X".

People routinely "X-out" what they perceive as a mistake (ie. cross out, cut off, delete, eradicate, erase, etc). They often do this by using an "X" to replace or cover what they are deleting (X-ing out).

Sometimes people use a crossing motion. Most people I know scratch things out (repeated lines horizontally across a word or phrase). But this is beside the point.

It is the same letter "X" that is used in the English language.

Maybe you do use an "X", but you are making a fundamentally bad series of assumptions that crossing out marks are "X"s (ex-s) and that the Greek letter "chi" is a cross-out mark or an "X" (ex).

You said, "The question you are asking me: "Aside from the word Christmas, do you refer to Jesus as "Christ" when you preach or witness?" The answer is yes. Sometimes I refer to him as "Jesus" too."

My question was different.

No it wasn't. That's the point. You asked a loaded question which, if answered the way you intended it, forces me to place an incorrect definition of the symbol for "X" in order to make sense of it. Instead of speaking falsehood to you, I demonstrated the proper use of the chi symbol and answered your question.

But I'll rephrase it. When you conduct written Bible studies or commentaries, do you write an "X" in place of where you would write "Christ"

I have when I take notes. I use all sorts of shorthand to take notes speedily.

as you do when you write an "X" instead of "Christ" in Xmas?

As I said before, I don't personally use "Xmas" very much. But there's nothing wrong with it.

If you use the letter "X" as a symbol for Christ in the word Xmas, then why haven't you done so in your numerous written commentaries where you DO use the word Christ and do NOT use an "X" in it's place?

Because I like the look of "Christmas" better than Xmas. It's simply personal preference. If you really want to know, I also don't abbreviate the names of states unless I am required to use the two-letter abbreviations for official forms. Why? Because I enjoy the look of whole words. It is an aesthetic thing for me.

You said, "Actually, I don't use the "chi" very much. I find the word "Christmas" to be more pleasing to the eye, so I use that representation."

So you're saying that you use the word Christmas but you encourage others to use the word Xmas?

If you have been paying attention (and I'm beginning to wonder about that), I haven't encouraged others to go out of their way to use the symbol "X" (chi) for Christ. It is certainly a good and appropriate symbol that can be used for great benefit in the kingdom, but it is not a high priority in my life that others use the chi.

My issue here is that you've branded all those who use the "chi" as being not true believers based on some very faulty history, logic and usage. I have point out the issues, others (of many different backgrounds and levels of conservatism/liberalism) have affirmed these basic facts.

You, sir, have made false charges and judged wrongly.

You also seem to be deliberately trying to avoid admitting you are wrong. (I may be wrong here, but you certainly seem to be a smart person in other threads and circumstances, so I can't figure out why you are having difficulty grasping elementary concepts here.)

There is no dishonor is being wrong or uninformed and quite a bit of credibility and honor from admitting mistakes.

I urge you to consider what I have said and repent of your false judgment.

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
Here's something for those who say that they like to use the "X" because of what it originally meant, ignoring what it largely implies today.

At one time the swastika was a harmless symbol, before the National Socialists used it.

Knowing that it was originally a respectable symbol, do you display it today, say, in jewelry, wall hangings, decorations, etc.?

I didn't think so. I don't either, just like I don't use the "X" in Christmas.

he swastika was a pagan symbol, what it represented I don't know now I've forgotten, but it was a pagan worship symbol.

 

[donnA]

These are just two of the many sites I found on the pagan origins of the swastika.

http://www.swastika.com/

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/4965/swastika.html

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
Here's something for those who say that they like to use the "X" because of what it originally meant, ignoring what it largely implies today.

At one time the swastika was a harmless symbol, before the National Socialists used it.

Knowing that it was originally a respectable symbol, do you display it today, say, in jewelry, wall hangings, decorations, etc.?

I didn't think so. I don't either, just like I don't use the "X" in Christmas.

he swastika was a pagan symbol, what it represented I don't know now I've forgotten, but it was a pagan worship symbol.</font>[/QUOTE]It is an ancient symbol that represented nature in harmony. When Hitler adopted it, he reversed the "rotation" of the swastika to represent his views.

Christians used it as a symbol in the early days of the church before they eventually changed to the ichthus (the fish).

[ December 21, 2002, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

[latterrain77]

Hi BaptistBeliever. Thank you for your reply.

You said, "Then your remarks about a controversy are meaningless."

No. The fact that you and I have made up our minds does not end the debate or the variety of views expressed on this thread including the original question.

You said, "Then the scripture you quoted about causing a brother to stumble/fall is irrelevant."

No. It is a common view of many (myself included) to hold that the word Xmas means "EX-mass" and an "X-ing out" of the word Christ. The Greek X (chi) letter/symbol does not represent Christ to many (even if it does to some). The common English usage of an "X" replacing a word means something entirely different - the exact opposite of what some say the Greek X (chi) represents. The Rom. 14: 21 verse I quoted related to this (ie. why not just use the word CHRISTmas?).

You said, "I don't know where you live (other than the USA), but I rarely here people saying "Ex-mass".

I have never heard anyone - ever - pronounce the word Xmas any way other than "EX-mass." I don't think its a geographical thing either. That is the overwhelmingly common pronunciation of the word.

You said, "I did hear a television announcer mispronounce it the other night (I think "Xmas" was in the title of some show),"

The television announcer pronounced it the way virtually everyone else does.

You said, "The proper way to pronounce it is "Christmas". I pronounce it the proper way.

As mentiond above, you are the only person I've ever heard pronounce "Xmas" as "Christmas." All others that I've ever heard say "Xmas" pronounced it "EX-mass."

You said, "Maybe you do use an "X", but you are making a fundamentally bad series of assumptions that crossing out marks are "X"s (ex-s) and that the Greek letter "chi" is a cross-out mark or an "X" (ex).

No. Mine are not assumptions but correct useage. According to the English dictionary, "X" and "ex" mean; to delete or cross out: He exed each item off the to-do list. It is pronounced "eks" according to the dictionary. "X" as used in Xmas is viewed by the vast majority in English speaking American society to mean "X-ing out" as described in the dictionary and common usage. Only a mininscule group in our society are aware of, or focus on, "chi" or other Greek language/symbols in American (English) language and life.

You said, "You asked a loaded question"

I didn't. Please go back and re-read what my question was and how you re-stated it differently.

You said, "You also seem to be deliberately trying to avoid admitting you are wrong."

Not at all. I do not believe that I'm wrong.

Thank you again for your follow up BaptistBeliever.

latterrain77

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
You said, "I don't know where you live (other than the USA), but I rarely here people saying "Ex-mass".

I have never heard anyone - ever - pronounce the word Xmas any way other than "EX-mass." I don't think its a geographical thing either. That is the overwhelmingly common pronunciation of the word.

Then maybe we are just more educated or better informed where I grew up...

You said, "The proper way to pronounce it is "Christmas". I pronounce it the proper way.

As mentiond above, you are the only person I've ever heard pronounce "Xmas" as "Christmas." All others that I've ever heard say "Xmas" pronounced it "EX-mass."

I'm guessing that you only hear someone comment on it when they are mispronouncing it.

In any case, we are talking about two different sets of experience and no way to "prove" to each other which is truer to the norm.

Only a mininscule group in our society are aware of, or focus on, "chi" or other Greek language/symbols in American (English) language and life.

Actually lots of people are familiar with Greek symbols... As I have posted (and you conveniently did not respond to), we use Greek symbols all the time in math and science. People of more liturgical churches use the symbols "X" (chi) and "XP" (chi rho), and the letter alpha and omega together to represent Christ. The symbols are used in vestments, stained glass windows, communion tables and other items of worship.

You said, "You asked a loaded question"

I didn't. Please go back and re-read what my question was and how you re-stated it differently.

Here's the exchange:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Aside from the word Christmas, do you refer to Jesus as "X" when you preach or witness?

The question you are asking me:

"Aside from the word Christmas, do you refer to Jesus as "Christ" when you preach or witness?"

[qb]The answer is yes. Sometimes I refer to him as "Jesus" too.</font>[/QUOTE]

You used the symbol that is pronounced "Christ" is your question. So you asked me if I "refer to Jesus as 'Christ' when I preach or witness." I answered yes.

Now I'm pretty sure you were trying to ask me if I "refer to Christ as 'X' (that is, 'Ex') when I preach or witness" No I don't, because Jesus is not "X" (Ex).

Of course the problem here is that you asked a question that was loaded in such a way where I have to agree with your faulty assertion to answer the question the way it was asked. It's a variant of the "Have you stopped beating your wife" style of question.

--

It has become obvious to me that you are not going to change your point of view about the use of "chi" to represent Christ despite some very clear explanations of the meaning and symbolic tradition.

The vital issue here is that you made an assertion that "no true believer" would ever use a symbol that could be mistaken for an "ex" or a "cross-out" to represent Christ.

Do you admit that other "true believers" may have a different understanding of this issue?

Do you admit that other "true believers" should be judged according to their intended use of the "chi"?

Do you promise that when you discuss this subject with others, that you at least admit that there is a long Christian history of using the "chi" as a symbol for Christ and that others who do not share your views may be using the symbol to the glory of God?

If not, then you need to repent.

[ December 21, 2002, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

[latterrain77]

Hi BaptistBeliever. Thank you for the follow up reply.

You said, I'm guessing that you only hear someone comment on it when they are mispronouncing it. In any case, we are talking about two different sets of experience and no way to "prove" to each other which is truer to the norm.

The Roman/English letter "X" is pronounced "eks" according to the dictionary and common usage. The television announcer that you mentioned in your prior post pronounced it correctly when he pronounced it "EX-mass." The word Xmas is pronounced "EX-mass" in English and common usage.

You said, People of more liturgical churches use the symbols "X" (chi) and "XP" (chi rho), and the letter alpha and omega together to represent Christ. The symbols are used in vestments, stained glass windows, communion tables and other items of worship.

The "X" that is commonly used in the word Xmas is a Roman X from our Roman/English Alphabet. The Roman letter X and Greek X (chi) look different from each other and are different from each other. You have said that the X in Xmas is an abbreviation for CHRIST, yet the Roman X does not express that abbreviation. The Roman X when used used to replace a word has the effect of "X-ing out" the word (as per the dictionary and common usage).

You said, "Actually lots of people are familiar with Greek symbols... As I have posted (and you conveniently did not respond to), we use Greek symbols all the time in math and science."

I did not respond to it because it didn't seem important to our dialogue. The Roman X commonly used in the English word Xmas is not a Greek symbol chi.

You said, "Do you promise that when you discuss this subject with others, that you at least admit that there is a long Christian history of using the "chi" as a symbol for Christ and that others who do not share your views may be using the symbol to the glory of God?

I have never denied the existence of Greek symbols in Christian history. I have argued against the MISUSE of them and the relevancy of "church history" in relation to it.

You said, "If not, then you need to repent."

As I've said in an earlier post - we all do! (Matt. 4: 17). But thank you for reminding me anyway!

Thank you again for your follow up BaptistBeliever.

latterrain77

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
You said, I'm guessing that you only hear someone comment on it when they are mispronouncing it. In any case, we are talking about two different sets of experience and no way to "prove" to each other which is truer to the norm.

The Roman/English letter "X" is pronounced "eks" according to the dictionary and common usage.

It is not the Roman letter “X”.

The television announcer that you mentioned in your prior post pronounced it correctly when he pronounced it "EX-mass." The word Xmas is pronounced "EX-mass" in English and common usage.

It may be common, but it’s wrong.

Ever hear people use the word, “irregardless”? It’s common and it is wrong. Educated people who know something about the English language don’t use the word “irregardless”. People who are knowledgeable Christians don’t pronounce “X-mas” as “Ex-mass”.

You said, People of more liturgical churches use the symbols "X" (chi) and "XP" (chi rho), and the letter alpha and omega together to represent Christ. The symbols are used in vestments, stained glass windows, communion tables and other items of worship.

The "X" that is commonly used in the word Xmas is a Roman X from our Roman/English Alphabet. The Roman letter X and Greek X (chi) look different from each other and are different from each other.

Only in the most formal writing. In handwriting or in most English fonts, the letter “X” (ex/eks) is used. I don’t think you would make a statement like this if you knew anything about Greek.

You have said that the X in Xmas is an abbreviation for CHRIST, yet the Roman X does not express that abbreviation.

Duh. Of course the context tells you that the meaning is not intended to be the Roman “X”.

You said, "Actually lots of people are familiar with Greek symbols... As I have posted (and you conveniently did not respond to), we use Greek symbols all the time in math and science."

I did not respond to it because it didn't seem important to our dialogue. The Roman X commonly used in the English word Xmas is not a Greek symbol chi.

It is the foundation of our discussion.

The Greek letter chi looks almost exactly like the Roman letter X. (We’re talking about the upper case version, not the lower case version.

Even fraternity people know this… I did a quick internet search and found this page (among hundreds). The third letter from the end of the alphabet shows upper and lower case chi-s.

http://www.pathguy.com/alphabet.htm

You said, "Do you promise that when you discuss this subject with others, that you at least admit that there is a long Christian history of using the "chi" as a symbol for Christ and that others who do not share your views may be using the symbol to the glory of God?

I have never denied the existence of Greek symbols in Christian history. I have argued against the MISUSE of them and the relevancy of "church history" in relation to it.

You declared that “true believers” would not use the chi to write “Christmas” as “Xmas.”

You are wrong factually and you have judged other believers falsely.

You said, "If not, then you need to repent."

As I've said in an earlier post - we all do! (Matt. 4: 17). But thank you for reminding me anyway! [/QB][/QUOTE]

No sir.

You need to repent for this very specific sin. Your 'friendliness' does not relieve you of the need to retract your previous false judgment.

 

[Steve K.]

Just a thought;
Happy halloween has exactly the same amount of letters as merry christmas and you have never heard happy xween. I believe it is a spiritual tactic. Hence the god of this world..

 

[Mari]

I have some questions:
What do X means in algebra ?
The cross that The Lord Jesus Christ died on was like this “X” or like “+”
(is more like it, isn´t it)?
And why not looking for a sign for the “-mas “ in stead of the “Christ-“?

To jonmakee, you said: Brian, I assume you are referring to the fact that Mass has a particular meaning within catholism.however it also means "feast" or "celebration". In that context there is a more universal meaning as we celebrate the birth of Christ.-

I cannot find that in my dictionary, what I can find is; a service INCLUDING this celebration

I guess you all notice that I don´t agree with the X, and when they invent a sign for the “-mas” I will gladly use it.

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matt. 10:33

I´m very afraid of not doing what I consider His will..... so may be you will call me a Pharisee, but I rather be one in this case.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Steve K.:
Just a thought;
Happy halloween has exactly the same amount of letters as merry christmas and you have never heard happy xween. I believe it is a spiritual tactic. Hence the god of this world..

Happy Christ-ween?

It's not about the number of letters...

 

[jimslade]

Replacing Christ with the greek letter for CHI in a world where few people know Greek ( I DO )is a pathetic arguement and not worthy of further responce!!!!!.

Foolish words from a wise man are still foolish words.

[ December 27, 2002, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: jimslade ]

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Mari:
I have some questions:
What do X means in algebra ?

An “X” in algebra (or any letter or combination of letters from “A” to “Z”) are placeholders that symbolize an unknown quantity. However, that is not what is being discussed here. The symbol that looks like a Roman “X” in “Xmas” is actually the upper-case Greek letter “chi” that has symbolized Christ for at least 1900 years.

The cross that The Lord Jesus Christ died on was like this “X” or like “+”
(is more like it, isn´t it)?

It is likely more similar, but the origin of the symbol is that it is the first letter of the Greek word for the title of Jesus (that is, “Christ” or “Xristos”, the Greek form of “Messiah”). The ancients noticed the cross in the first letter and used the symbol as both a short (and coded) way to write the name of Christ, as well as a symbol of the work of Christ on the cross. Christians still use the simple symbol of the fish in a similar way. (Strange that no one has fits over the use of the fish symbol. ).

And why not looking for a sign for the “-mas” in stead of the “Christ-”

This is not a recent development where someone is looking for a replacement for the first part of the word.

I guess you all notice that I don´t agree with the X, and when they invent a sign for the “-mas”; I will gladly use it.

If you don’t like it, fine. No one is asking you to use it. The only thing I am saying here is that it is wrong to assume that a Christian brother or sister is not a true believer (or even sinning against God) by using this ancient symbol of Christ.

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matt. 10:33

The only people who are denying Christ here are those who deny that their brothers and sisters are true believers because they used the symbol honorably.

I´m very afraid of not doing what I consider His will.....

Fortunately God knows your heart and you are judged according to your intent, not what other people happen to think of you.

so may be you will call me a Pharisee, but I rather be one in this case.

No one is calling you a Pharisee here, but it is certainly a bad thing to come up with rules that are not biblical and try to use them as a test of fellowship or “true” belief. Only the evil one is honored by such false religiousity and/or ignorance.